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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.10.12 15:07:00 - [1]
 

EVE Online comes in two flavors: Windows and Mac. TG Maladara of TransGaming gives us a detailed look at the Mac client in his newest dev blog.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.12 15:28:00 - [2]
 

Will you make an EVE client for iPhone/iPad?

Dacil Arandur
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.12 15:31:00 - [3]
 

Thank you very much for this guest blog!
Very informative and interesting.

It's hard to appreciate the level of work that must be required to run an application written entirely for the Windows and DirectX APIs on a system that supports neither.

Looking forward to your next blog!

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.10.12 15:37:00 - [4]
 

That's a pretty awesome look inside how you guys do what you do. Nice blog!

Hordi LaGeorge
Posted - 2010.10.12 16:30:00 - [5]
 

Do the Cider folks look at the Macintosh channel in this forum? I would hope they do, as many of the issues we put there are Cider issues, not general client issues.

Tiny Montgomery
Posted - 2010.10.12 16:52:00 - [6]
 

Thanks for the info. Good to see some mac related background.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:47:00 - [7]
 

Thanks for being awesome and talking about the Mac Client, and the Cider Technology. I'm really looking forward to the next blog covering performance!

TG Maladara
Posted - 2010.10.12 19:58:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Hordi LaGeorge
Do the Cider folks look at the Macintosh channel in this forum? I would hope they do, as many of the issues we put there are Cider issues, not general client issues.


We certainly do read the forums, though the best way to ensure that we can solve an issue is to provide a solid bug report with specific reproduction steps. We understand that can be difficult, especially in cases where the problem happens only occasionally, but the more data we have, the easier it is for us to track it down. Things like GPU model and exact OS release are very important to have in the bug reports.

lol internets
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.10.12 20:05:00 - [9]
 

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my veld mining gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/4 Gigs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to warp a Megathron in Rens to another planet. 20 minutes. At home, on my 800MHz Celeron running Windows XP, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.
In addition, during this warp, the ingame browser will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even the forum **** showcase on PL forums is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Macs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Mac that has run faster than its Wintel counterpart, despite the Macs' faster chip architecture. My Iteron Mk IV with an afterburner runs faster than this apple Vagabond at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Macintosh is a superior machine.

Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Raquel Smith
Caldari
Freedom-Technologies
Sev3rance
Posted - 2010.10.12 20:42:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: lol internets
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my veld mining gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/4 Gigs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to warp a Megathron in Rens to another planet. 20 minutes. At home, on my 800MHz Celeron running Windows XP, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.
In addition, during this warp, the ingame browser will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even the forum **** showcase on PL forums is straining to keep up as I type this.
I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Macs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Mac that has run faster than its Wintel counterpart, despite the Macs' faster chip architecture. My Iteron Mk IV with an afterburner runs faster than this apple Vagabond at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Macintosh is a superior machine.

Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.


What else are you doing with your mac to slow it down? I had the exact same 8600M GT with 4GB of memory and while Eve was not the fastest thing I run it certainly benefited from the extra memory and not trying to do a zillion things at once with the machine. Killer things were YouTube and very large IMAP mailboxes with Mail.app.

ChrisIsherwood
Posted - 2010.10.12 20:52:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
Thanks for being awesome and talking about the Mac Client, and the Cider Technology. I'm really looking forward to the next blog covering performance!


^^ Yes thanks!

At some point, enough of the kids will have mowed enough lawns to move off XP and CCP can address DX10/11 and 64 bit. IDK what the multicore solution will be. It would be comforting to hear about how TG sees those happening. Have they addressed those for other gaming companies? BTW, I doubt I will still be playing EVE then, so I guess I am more looking for soothing and interesting technospeak than excessive honesty. :-)

For the next topic, I hope you at least mention whether you have been able to take advantage of openCL yet or hope to be able to in the future.

Thanks again!

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.10.12 21:03:00 - [12]
 

Nice. Good to hear from a side we don't usually hear from! Very Happy

Usul Atreides
Posted - 2010.10.12 21:16:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Usul Atreides on 12/10/2010 21:17:20
Very good. Very Happy

Must be an interesting, if sometimes maddening job.

Hordi LaGeorge
Posted - 2010.10.12 22:44:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: TG Maladara


We certainly do read the forums, though the best way to ensure that we can solve an issue is to provide a solid bug report with specific reproduction steps.


I make bug reports, but doing so is quite frustrating. For example I have gotten no reply of any sort on Bug #101111, filed almost 2 weeks ago. And on bug #99612 (submitted under an alt) I did get a reply and provided new information as requested. But that was over a month ago, and I have had no reply since.

Why do I use a Mac? I prefer the OS. For me EVE runs fairly well. Ive been in 100 ship fleets, and had no trouble keeping up. Even in the Sisi mass tests I seem to catch no more lag than anyone else. Lol, I have never had the delay issue you seemed to have. Nor have I heard it from any other Mac user.

Also, my computer is supplied free by work. If I were to use a PC for EVE I would have to actually spend money for something I now get for free, a cost ratio of infinity. (I use PLEXes for EVE.) I see no reason to increase my gaming expenses by a factor of infinity.

Dagny Bronstein
Posted - 2010.10.13 07:39:00 - [15]
 

nice blog!

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.10.13 07:40:00 - [16]
 

Excellent blog, and I don't even have a mac Razz

MissyDark
Posted - 2010.10.13 08:37:00 - [17]
 

Good job! I'm sure both mac players are very grateful. Cheers!

Daan Sai
Polytrope
Posted - 2010.10.13 11:39:00 - [18]
 

Thanks for the insight, interesting read.

I've used the mac client, even through the dark days of massive disconnections, and now I am pretty happy with the client.

We mac users know we are a minority in EVE, and we are grateful for all the extra work you are doing to make cider do its magic.

Cheers
Daan

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.10.13 17:25:00 - [19]
 

Good thing you mentioned where you got the code for Cider from, oh wait...

CCP Adida


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.13 19:06:00 - [20]
 

Removed a trolling comment.

Merasa Tro
Posted - 2010.10.14 10:43:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: lol internets
a Mac (a 8600/300 w/4 Gigs of RAM)


Sorry, do you really mean an 8600/300?

•8600/300 introduced 1997.08.05; discontinued 1998.02.17

So thats 12 years old?
Or am I just showing my age that I've actually heard of that model?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 11:58:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 14/10/2010 12:10:31
Originally by: Merasa Tro
Originally by: lol internets
a Mac (a 8600/300 w/4 Gigs of RAM)
Sorry, do you really mean an 8600/300?

•8600/300 introduced 1997.08.05; discontinued 1998.02.17

So thats 12 years old?
Or am I just showing my age that I've actually heard of that model?
…not to mention:
Why should a 300MHz PPC be faster than an 800MHz Celeron?
How on earth did he get 4 GB in there? Or is he talking about the HD size, in which case, how did he manage to squeeze 5GB worth of game onto it?
…and, for that matter, how on earth did he get EVE to run under OS9 to begin with?

And it can't be that you're old — since he's talking about how they supposedly have a "faster chip architecture", he's obviously not using one that has been released in the last 5 years or so, since modern Macs are also "wintel" machines. He must be talking about one of the old PPC machines… you know, the ones that can't run EVE.

So no, you're not old. He's just a troll.

Merasa Tro
Posted - 2010.10.14 12:47:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tippia
not to mention:
Why should a 300MHz PPC be faster than an 800MHz Celeron?
How on earth did he get 4 GB in there? Or is he talking about the HD size, in which case, how did he manage to squeeze 5GB worth of game onto it?
…and, for that matter, how on earth did he get EVE to run under OS9 to begin with?

And it can't be that you're old — since he's talking about how they supposedly have a "faster chip architecture", he's obviously not using one that has been released in the last 5 years or so, since modern Macs are also "wintel" machines. He must be talking about one of the old PPC machines… you know, the ones that can't run EVE.

So no, you're not old. He's just a troll.


I was prepared to believe he might have found some daughter-card upgrade path for it. Which might have given him a G4 with OSX on it. I still couldnt figure at the 4Gb RAM tho, unless it was a 9600 inside a case labled 8600.

But then, he'd still be way off minimum spec.

Ohh, actually... Theres a competition, how 'low' can you go?
What age of machine can you find a convuluted upgrade path to run eve-o? Bonus points if you can find a valid complaint about performance.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 12:57:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 14/10/2010 13:00:12
Originally by: Merasa Tro
Ohh, actually... Theres a competition, how 'low' can you go?
What age of machine can you find a convuluted upgrade path to run eve-o? Bonus points if you can find a valid complaint about performance.
Sounds fun, but I suspect it wouldn't go all that far back into history… Very Happy

After all, it has two key limiting factors: must run OSX, must run Intel binaries. That alone sets up a pretty rigid wall that cuts off anything older than, what? Third-gen iMacs and Mac Pros, unless there was some suspicious G4/G5 upgrade that gave it Intel emulation. Razz

Merasa Tro
Posted - 2010.10.14 13:30:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Sounds fun, but I suspect it wouldn't go all that far back into history… Very Happy

After all, it has two key limiting factors: must run OSX, must run Intel binaries. That alone sets up a pretty rigid wall that cuts off anything older than, what? Third-gen iMacs and Mac Pros, unless there was some suspicious G4/G5 upgrade that gave it Intel emulation. Razz


What if though, you used WINE? or CIDER? Did it yourself? Or...Something like REALPC on a G3, with windows XP installed.

If that worked, I could probably get a 6500/250 (with G3 daughtercard and voodoo2) up and running. So thats early 1998 I think.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.10.14 13:50:00 - [26]
 

Depends how well it'll translate those shader instructions, I suppose…

Toovhon
Posted - 2010.10.16 06:23:00 - [27]
 

*is forced to login twice just to be able to post*

I'd like to know more about the testing, please, since I'm pretty certain the mid-2007 24" 2.8GHz iMac with the ATI Radeon 2600 HD Pro (top of the iMac line when Eve for Mac was being beta tested a couple years ago) was never tested for more than five minutes.

Otherwise Transgaming would know Eve for Mac and Windows (using Boot Camp) starts stuttering after minutes to hours of play (though usually only minutes) on this model, with no noticeable CPU spiking hogging other apps (plenty of unused RAM). Also HD usage, memory usage, even network usage is normal (just to be thorough). I've even launched apps like Quake 3 and WoW while Eve is stuttering, just to point out how those apps run without stutters while Eve is choking on itself. I've seen no other 3D app exhibit stuttering after being run a while, and I've played dozens of different games over the last couple years in both OSX 10.5.x (10.5.8 right now) and WinXP on this model.

The stuttering can start in a WH system with only myself in local, and only myself in corp chat with no other channel open. So it is not chat lag. The stuttering does not go away until I restart Eve, which temporarily cures it. The suttering gets progressively worse the longer Eve runs, after it has begun. I have seen other forum threads and spoken with in-game with players in both OSX and Windows who experience similar issues. All have ATI cards like mine. Some the exact same model.

Thus I suspect a memory leak involving Eve's ATI graphics code.

So yeah - while I'm sure other readers here are well sick of me by now (I could care less, as I just want to play without stuttering), I'd like to know more about Transgaming's Mac testing.

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2010.10.18 16:09:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: CCP Adida
Removed a trolling comment.


You missed. The flamewar troll is still there.

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2010.10.18 16:15:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 18/10/2010 16:19:20
On a more serious note. How does Transgaming, who have mysterious reappeared and I strongly suspect will vanish again shortly, explain the simply staggering performance difference between Cider and WINE, on OS X specifically with regards to the EVE client? As the Cider version bundled with Spore performs surpringly well.

I will add that the performance increase & stability is most certainly in WINE's favour. That's the same hardware, same OpenGL stack, same gfx drivers.

And let us be honest here. We know Cider = Cegeda/WineX = Ancient version of the WINE codebase.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2010.10.20 18:55:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash
Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 18/10/2010 16:19:20
On a more serious note. How does Transgaming, who have mysterious reappeared and I strongly suspect will vanish again shortly, explain the simply staggering performance difference between Cider and WINE, on OS X specifically with regards to the EVE client?


I mean, thats pretty easy. They don't have the manpower to keep up with the development that is going on in wine. They are a single company that works on a single peace of closed code. Wine on the oder hand is profiting from more than just one source of code, there are many different fields where a software like wine is useful, games are not the only windows programs some want to run on other platforms than windows. And there is the tight connection with the users trough the AppDB which i find is a very awesome example how to share information between testers and developers in a incredible efficient way.

Transgaming simply did not understand what open source means and what the rules are. My observation is that if an open source software starts to dominate a sector and the amount of code that comes in from different sources is higher than a single company can compete with the game changes. It is no longer a "who has the best product" (Transgaming is stuck there) it becomes a political arena where the goal is to influence the direction of the project without setting up the others and provoking a split of the project. You have to participate in the central code base to the rules the driving forces in the project set or you are left behind with your forked code that gets older and older and you will not be able to incorporate all the work that the others do in your branch.

I just wonder why CCP still tries to invest money in this dead end. There are clearly other solutions. It is possible to use wine as a library and compile the client against it. They simply have to support two platforms, wine and windows and they get most of the operating systems for free.. Also they could do it by supporting wine, there are so many ways to do that and not much work is needed here because it already works very well. All they have to do is to make sure it works well in future releases.

However, most of the linux players say this since i know. And CCP proved us right by discontinuing linux support "cause no one used the client". Of course no one used the client it was total crap! The windows version together with wine worked a thousand times better, why should anyone prefer the broken stuff over a perfect working solution (well i know, should not ask such questions, there are still people that use windows... there are some that love the pain)?

Maybe i just don't understand the real issues that lead CCP to go that way, but i never saw them answering to this questions.


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