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Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.12 09:31:00 - [1]
 

I'm not someone who regularly moans about everything. As a developer myself, I more naturally have sympathy with the dev team. However, the recent "improvements" to the client have been a farcical experience. Three optional upgrades within a few days is hard to accept as professional. Especially since various things have been broken in the process. I still see two copies of things in my Overview when I undock, for example. And the stacking of windows is now broken, too. (I have a container in my hold. I arrange for it to open stacked with the Cargo Hold window -- now every new container opens there. I drag the other container's window somewhere else, and now it's forgotten where the first container should open.)

This sort of "upgrade" should never happen with mature code. The changes have the feel of stuff done by a junior programmer with more confidence than competence, and insufficient supervision. CCP, get your stuff together! Do a proper in-depth peer review of every line of every code change before you commit it. I know from experience that this would not only improve the customer relations, it would actually reduce your development costs, as you wouldn't have to re-visit everything three times. [And if you tell me that you already do peer-review, then you should start carpeting the teams that screw up this much! ;-) ]

CCP Fear

Posted - 2010.10.12 10:59:00 - [2]
 

Not really the right section of the forums, but anyways;

Unfortunately, with a code this size, there can be some unforeseen things that just slip through our quite thorough process.

Also a reminder that a test server is just that, where things are sometimes broken, unbalanced and not final.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.12 12:31:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Not really the right section of the forums, but anyways;

Unfortunately, with a code this size, there can be some unforeseen things that just slip through our quite thorough process.

Also a reminder that a test server is just that, where things are sometimes broken, unbalanced and not final.


You would find these sorts of flaws if you did proper regression testing. Of course no MMO publisher does proper software Q/A testing, which is one of the biggest black eyes the industry has.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2010.10.12 12:43:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: CCP Fear
Not really the right section of the forums, but anyways;

Unfortunately, with a code this size, there can be some unforeseen things that just slip through our quite thorough process.

Also a reminder that a test server is just that, where things are sometimes broken, unbalanced and not final.


You would find these sorts of flaws if you did proper regression testing. Of course no MMO publisher does proper software Q/A testing, which is one of the biggest black eyes the industry has.

For most part because it is NOT worth it. Simple business decision which you would know if you would ever work with big project.

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.12 13:07:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan

You would find these sorts of flaws if you did proper regression testing. Of course no MMO publisher does proper software Q/A testing, which is one of the biggest black eyes the industry has.

Yup, absolutely agree. It feels so amateur.

Originally by: Valandril
For most part because it is NOT worth it. Simple business decision which you would know if you would ever work with big project.
You speak from experience of having tried it both ways, as I have?

Chaotic Mind
Rennfeuer
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.12 13:10:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Chaotic Mind on 12/10/2010 13:11:15
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs.aspx

apply and teach those noobs a lesson

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.12 13:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear
Not really the right section of the forums, but anyways;

Unfortunately, with a code this size, there can be some unforeseen things that just slip through our quite thorough process.

Also a reminder that a test server is just that, where things are sometimes broken, unbalanced and not final.
Thank you for your prompt reply. It is always appreciated. Couldn't really find a "right" section for this comment, but apologies if I've put it in the wrong place.

I agree and understand that things sometimes "slip through". I'd fully expect the occasional issue on the test server. But bugs like the ones currently in the client shouldn't have got even that far (unless I'm the only one in the world experiencing these infelicities, which I don't think it the case). And they certainly should not have been let out on general release!

There are two scenarios: one that your tests did not throw up these problems, in which case the testing is not as thorough as you assert. The other is that you knew of the problems, but released anyway, which would speak to your judgement and release criteria, I suppose. Neither scenario paints CCP in a particularly good light, I think you'd agree.

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2010.10.12 13:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kimbeau Surveryor
Originally by: Jack Gilligan

You would find these sorts of flaws if you did proper regression testing. Of course no MMO publisher does proper software Q/A testing, which is one of the biggest black eyes the industry has.

Yup, absolutely agree. It feels so amateur.

Originally by: Valandril
For most part because it is NOT worth it. Simple business decision which you would know if you would ever work with big project.
You speak from experience of having tried it both ways, as I have?
From experience you do not have. Unless you count your blog as a "big" project,

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.12 13:28:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Chaotic Mind
Edited by: Chaotic Mind on 12/10/2010 13:11:15
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs.aspx

apply and teach those noobs a lesson
Hehe. Quite tempted, actually. But unfortunately, wrong part of the entrepreneurial cycle. Got to get my current venture to sellable state first, which will take another year or two.

Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2010.10.12 16:30:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kimbeau Surveryor
Originally by: CCP Fear
Not really the right section of the forums, but anyways;

Unfortunately, with a code this size, there can be some unforeseen things that just slip through our quite thorough process.

Also a reminder that a test server is just that, where things are sometimes broken, unbalanced and not final.
Thank you for your prompt reply. It is always appreciated. Couldn't really find a "right" section for this comment, but apologies if I've put it in the wrong place.

I agree and understand that things sometimes "slip through". I'd fully expect the occasional issue on the test server. But bugs like the ones currently in the client shouldn't have got even that far (unless I'm the only one in the world experiencing these infelicities, which I don't think it the case). And they certainly should not have been let out on general release!

There are two scenarios: one that your tests did not throw up these problems, in which case the testing is not as thorough as you assert. The other is that you knew of the problems, but released anyway, which would speak to your judgement and release criteria, I suppose. Neither scenario paints CCP in a particularly good light, I think you'd agree.


What bugs are you still experiencing? Cause for me, after the last optional patch the UI is functioning better than I have seen since I started playing. Issues ive always had, like windows opening and popping to foreground incessantly are gone (one of my biggest UI pet peeves).

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.10.12 17:37:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: cyndrogen on 12/10/2010 17:40:24
I have seen double ships yesterday on tranquility, I undocked and I saw two copies of everyone in overview.

Also the overview will sometimes shade planets and other structures as if they were in my fleet or even red.

Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.12 18:23:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Edited by: cyndrogen on 12/10/2010 17:40:24
I have seen double ships yesterday on tranquility, I undocked and I saw two copies of everyone in overview.

Also the overview will sometimes shade planets and other structures as if they were in my fleet or even red.

Yup. Confirm both of those. Also the new problem with stacked windows as described in my OP.

Not sure yet if this is an issue, but my client disappeared from under me three times in the space of a couple of hours last night. Been stable today, but I've only been running one instance as compared to my usual two.

On the plus side, window refresh is much slicker than it used to be (for example when you close the top one of some stacked windows). And yes, less problems with standard windows moving to strange places. So, many thanks for the progress on those fronts.


 

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