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Evo YaMing
Posted - 2010.10.13 08:02:00 - [121]
 

Dear CCP,
i installed today the latest Sisi Client to try out Incarna. My Laptop a Dell Vostro 1310 supports Shader Model 3.0. Now i tested out Incarna and i am having serious FPS issues using your new Character Creation thingy. My FPS are pretty much between 0-5 FPS. if this is your final version its the end of my EVE Time.
CYA

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2010.10.13 09:35:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/10/2010 18:55:47
Is there a reason to continue supporting ShaderModel 3.0? I can't imagine there are too many out there using that either. SM 4.0 cards are dirt cheap, less than $50.

It sounds good in theory, unfortunately SM 4.0 requires DX10, which requires Windows Vista and above. According to the Valve hardware survey, only 70% of Windows users are running Vista or 7, even though 85.5% of Windows systems have an SM 4.0-capable GPU.
So to upgrade wouldn't only be a $40 graphics card, but also a $130 OS (and that's for the upgrade version of the home version).

Not to mention that EVE doesn't currently have an SM 4.0 version (though IIRC most 3.0 shaders will compile fine as 4.0) or more importantly a DX 10 version, and Cider (for the mac client) doesn't support SM 4.0 or DX 10 either.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.10.14 04:29:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Joseph SaintJohn
I don't know what you mean by lag, but I am not referring to a FPS drop. I am talking about taking 3 minutes to jump into a system if you are in even a moderately large fleet. Or how long it takes to "load grid" after a jump during a fleet fight. I mean hiding brackets and turning off animations and turning off auto-cycling on your guns in a desperate attempt not to be "killed by lag" , even after your ship is "in warp". In PvP fights , shiny graphics don't matter , the response time of the nodes on CCP'S servers to the "calls" from my client do.

If you do not see the drop of "legacy support" before and the dropping of shader 2.o support as anything other than a way for CCP to save money , you are hopelessly naive, or you have never been in a large fleet fight, or tried to buy something in Jita on a Sunday night. Maybe you believe the "shiny" graphs showing how much the "call response" improved after the "character node" was added.

Implicit in my post is the idea that in a complex environment the effect of a single change should be unpredictable. My personal bet is that two things happen: CCP saves money, and "lag" gets worse.

Joe


Turning off effects and brackets is only beneficial if your bottleneck is your graphics card. I've been in some big fleet fights with 30+ FPS with brackets etc on and had only the same issues (cycling guns, slow loading grid, etc) everyone else had (in fact I usually load grid faster than most potentially due to geographic location).

Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/10/2010 18:55:47
Is there a reason to continue supporting ShaderModel 3.0? I can't imagine there are too many out there using that either. SM 4.0 cards are dirt cheap, less than $50.

It sounds good in theory, unfortunately SM 4.0 requires DX10, which requires Windows Vista and above. According to the Valve hardware survey, only 70% of Windows users are running Vista or 7, even though 85.5% of Windows systems have an SM 4.0-capable GPU.
So to upgrade wouldn't only be a $40 graphics card, but also a $130 OS (and that's for the upgrade version of the home version).

Not to mention that EVE doesn't currently have an SM 4.0 version (though IIRC most 3.0 shaders will compile fine as 4.0) or more importantly a DX 10 version, and Cider (for the mac client) doesn't support SM 4.0 or DX 10 either.


At the very least, I hope dropping 2.0 will mean Eve will be using Dx10 in the near future, what with Dx11 out.

Casod Sutherland
Posted - 2010.10.14 07:16:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Casod Sutherland on 14/10/2010 15:22:35
EDIT: I was wrong; I'm deleting my post so that it doesn't misguide others.

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2010.10.14 12:57:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Casod Sutherland
Looks like Linux users with ATI or Intel cards are out of luck.

SM3 requires FP32 textures. ...

You're either saying existing ATI Linux users are only using low texture quality or that Eve doesn't currently use FP32 at all.

Are you currently using an Intel GPU to play Eve via Wine? I had the impression Intel's OpenGL driver don't have the functions needed for Eve. Ie: It doesn't work already.


Casod Sutherland
Posted - 2010.10.14 15:28:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Solbright
You're either saying existing ATI Linux users are only using low texture quality or that Eve doesn't currently use FP32 at all.

Are you currently using an Intel GPU to play Eve via Wine? I had the impression Intel's OpenGL driver don't have the functions needed for Eve. Ie: It doesn't work already.

I was wrong; it seems that my drivers were messed up somehow. I reinstalled Mesa 7.8.2, and now when I run SM3checker.exe in Wine, it tells me that my Intel card does support SM3.

And yeah, I am already using a laptop with an Intel GPU to play Eve via Wine when I am away from home. It's quite slow, I certainly wouldn't use it for PVP, but it's good enough for changing skills, setting up market orders, and annoying people in local.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2010.10.14 16:22:00 - [127]
 

Quote:
However, CCP, take note: You better include anti-aliasing this time around, or I shall take up the single pitchfork I found in the old garden shed, light a single torch leftover from halloween celebrations, and solo-angry-mob you all for great justice!

And i will join him. You better include AA this time.

Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
Posted - 2010.10.15 02:26:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Casod Sutherland
And yeah, I am already using a laptop with an Intel GPU to play Eve via Wine when I am away from home.

There are plenty, including myself, that would love to know how you've done that. Posting a how-to in the Linux forum would be very helpful.

Cheers

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.15 14:51:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Vak'ran
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Elojs
Stuff



If you can't afford this but you can afford to shell out $15 a month for EVE (or the time to play it enough to afford the gtc's)...

As people have said before, gaming may not be the best hobby for you.


He would also need this to get it into his laptop...

Learn to read.

And another pre-emptive learn to read for when you decide I am defending him.


No, i need to learn how to read. My brain makes me skip certain parts of texts, it's rather annoying... My apoligies.

Point still stands though. Even in Eastern Europe it shouldn't be that hard to find a second hand barebones with sm3.0, or a laptop. First hand stuff is getting cheaper and cheaper aswell. A PC that can run EVE in it's most basic form would cost around ~$250 if you look hard enough (all new parts), maybe a little cheaper. Germany is a haven for cheap PC parts for that matter. It does come down to a choice of not playing the game for a while to save the money and spend the time on a part-time second job (if available), or playing the game and well, not doing that.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.10.15 14:56:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Evo YaMing
Dear CCP,
i installed today the latest Sisi Client to try out Incarna. My Laptop a Dell Vostro 1310 supports Shader Model 3.0. Now i tested out Incarna and i am having serious FPS issues using your new Character Creation thingy. My FPS are pretty much between 0-5 FPS. if this is your final version its the end of my EVE Time.
CYA


Not a gaming laptop.

While the video card supports SM3.0, "support" is where it stays. That card is made so you can run Aero in Vista/7 and maybe watch a few movies, but games are a bit over it's head. You'll have a hard time running even WoW on that thing i'm afraid.

The 128mb memory alone completely kills it for that matter. 256 has been the norm for gaming for 5 years or so now.

SyntaxPD
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:26:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: SyntaxPD on 16/10/2010 11:28:23
i support this path of improvements.

But i was going to subscribe second time to enjoy double eve with my pretty old laptop.

I will not do this now.

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2010.10.18 19:06:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Evo YaMing
Dear CCP,
i installed today the latest Sisi Client to try out Incarna. My Laptop a Dell Vostro 1310 supports Shader Model 3.0. Now i tested out Incarna and i am having serious FPS issues using your new Character Creation thingy. My FPS are pretty much between 0-5 FPS. if this is your final version its the end of my EVE Time.
CYA


Not a gaming laptop.

While the video card supports SM3.0, "support" is where it stays. That card is made so you can run Aero in Vista/7 and maybe watch a few movies, but games are a bit over it's head. You'll have a hard time running even WoW on that thing i'm afraid.

The 128mb memory alone completely kills it for that matter. 256 has been the norm for gaming for 5 years or so now.


Cool text entry bug, it doesn't want to let me read this... so I'll be breifish.

It might not just be the gfx chip in the card. It might be that he's using the Dell provided drivers which are usually VERY VERY old. It's a similar problem to using BootCamp on Windows, the defeault drivers Apple supplies are donky years out of date compared to the latest offerings.

OTOH, 9400M vs an Itel chip so yeah. But even I had to tick the box for "use low quality version". It looked awesome but wasn't useable... so I wonder how badly it'll run on the puka mac client.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.10.18 21:46:00 - [133]
 

Why can't you introduce a client setting that entirely turns off all pictures ? Do so in a way that also allows your processor to ignore all computations of distances and speed of objects not in your active overview setting.

Plenty of game activity requires no pictures...and many players don't need them at all. You can operate at 75% efficiency in many fleet fights and many missions only using the overview and your module buttons. I need to remind myself to look at space and I often don't.

I can run shader 3 on my 5 year old off the shelf $500 computer but will I still be able to run two clients well with more video requirments for stuff I don't want? Even with one client, will I be able to have adobe illustrator open workign on stuff as I went station to station picking up stuff for my regional buy orders.. just using the corner of my eye to look back over when I need to push the a jump or dock button ?

There has got to be a way to support almost all video cards in a all text window mode... and I'd like that even now with the current lower requiredments.

Wouldn't that be an easy compromise that would permanently let people perform a huge portion of game functions on very low level computing devices?

Delnadres Courthelia
Posted - 2010.10.19 19:47:00 - [134]
 

I only read the first page but...

What about a small simple app written in Java (gasp) that has all the access a Full API Key does, plus the ability to set skills in the queue, participate in in-game chat, run manufacturing and research jobs in the station your character is currently docked at... basically a text-based version of the game based on the latest EVE Back-end, nothing more than simple 2D backgrounds to give an EVE theme, if the device supports it.

If it's written in Java, shouldn't be hard to port it to...well...everything. So no matter where you are, or no matter what devices you own that lose compatibility due to changes in the graphics of the game, you can rest assured you still have reasonable access to the game until you upgrade. And having EVE on-the-go will increase simultanious player connections, improve involvement in the EVE universe throughout the day (especially if it gets ported to iPhone, and BlackBerry), and make it easier to talk to potential players about EVE.

You could also make it modular, including the ability for CCP to create plug-ins, so if you get it on iPhone or similarly powered devices, you could install a plug-in that lets you view the 3D ship previews. Or a plug-in that let's other players in EVE send you a message that triggers an alarm on your phone to let you know to get your butt to a PC and save your Titan from annihilation. XD

Just a thought.

Dhar Mok
Posted - 2010.11.12 15:32:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Dhar Mok on 12/11/2010 15:32:36
I tried the app that is linked in the blog out and I found something odd.

My card is definitely a Shader Model 3 card. Tested and verified with a vendor supplied app as well as a couple 3rd party graphics diagnostic checker programs.

However, the tool CCP provides claims that it doesn't have shader model 3 support.

Might want to recheck your tool and make sure it's accurate for all cards.

Card on my laptop is a Mobile Intel(r) 965 Express Chipset Family
GPI is a GM965 Revision C0
SM3.0 support is listed.

Would hate for a ton of people to run out and upgrade systems needlessly because "CCP told me my old system wouldn't work"


Miranio
Posted - 2010.12.10 07:54:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
Our best metric is the Steam hardware report and general trending in hardware sales etc. Applying some common sense and logic and a few assumptions we deduce that around 3% of the EVE player base don't support SM3 today but at the current trend that will be down well below 1% early next year.

Of course we wanted to get this message out there with plenty of lead time so people could prepare, bringing that 1% down to 0% since you all know about it now :)


The problem is even if I know about it, it doesn't mean I have the money to buy myself a whole new computer ( actually still on AGP ) and if I had the money to buy a new computer, do you really think I would have sticked with this rig until now ?

Doublewhopper
Posted - 2010.12.25 02:42:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Doublewhopper on 25/12/2010 02:42:42
The problem is even if I know about it, it doesn't mean I have the money to buy myself a whole new computer ( actually still on AGP ) and if I had the money to buy a new computer, do you really think I would have sticked with this rig until now ?


There should be no problem for you on AGP. There are graphics cards as the Radeon HD3850 available for AGP, that support shader model 3.0. However, since AGP systems tend to be single core CPUs, it is best to stick to a maximum of 2 clients on such a solution.

There are even new cards out that support DirectX 11 on PCI (NOT PCIe) as the Radeon HD 5450 from HIS. It supports shader model 5.0 on PCI, but i wouldn't buy that for EVE, as the data transfer would be too slow for gaming.

Miranio
Posted - 2010.12.25 07:32:00 - [138]
 

I heard about card with newer gpu on the AGP port, but the fact is that it would be the worst investment ever to buy a brand new video card on that port or even worst on a pci (not pci-e) port.

The AGP technology is obsolete today (I'm not blind, I'm just a poor grad student), so buying a brand new card on an obsolete port for getting in a obsolete motherbord, with obsolete DDR 400mhz and obsolete CPU (single core ) is not really a good thing to do. Right now the best move is to use this computer to the ever extend of his computational capacity and change it completetly when the money will come.

Talking about 2 clients, I actually run 2 clients on my computer with no difficulty, I already ran 3 but there was a slight lag. So it will not be a computational capacity problem, but just a technology standard drawback and that's drive me nuts.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.12.27 10:21:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Soldarius on 27/12/2010 10:22:26
Originally by: Doublewhopper
There are even new cards out that support DirectX 11 on PCI (NOT PCIe) as the Radeon HD 5450 from HIS. It supports shader model 5.0 on PCI, but i wouldn't buy that for EVE, as the data transfer would be too slow for gaming.


All the new DX11 cards that I have seen are PCI-e. Check your facts before hand plz. Fact of the matter is that PCI is becoming obsolete, as it has been superceded by the much faster PCI-Express interface.

I run an ATI Radeon HD4890 and have 0 lag with all graphics options (esc menu and brackets) set to maximum until participating in huge fleet fights with several hundred players on grid and firing. The 5450 you pointed at is affordable. However, the 4890 is far superior, as the above reviews clearly indicate. They are both PCI-e and both support DX11.

As far as AGP, well... the laptop I bought 6 years ago had a PCI-e interface. I did happen to see an AGP eGPU on the shelf at Staples the other day. But honestly, upgrade to PCI-e as soon as you can. You won't regret it.

Doublewhopper
Posted - 2010.12.28 03:53:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Doublewhopper on 28/12/2010 03:55:45
Originally by: Soldarius
Edited by: Soldarius on 27/12/2010 10:22:26

All the new DX11 cards that I have seen are PCI-e. Check your facts before hand plz. Fact of the matter is that PCI is becoming obsolete, as it has been superceded by the much faster PCI-Express interface.

As far as AGP, well... the laptop I bought 6 years ago had a PCI-e interface. I did happen to see an AGP eGPU on the shelf at Staples the other day. But honestly, upgrade to PCI-e as soon as you can. You won't regret it.


You are very funny and too lazy to even use Google for a minute, but wildly accusing others of not having their facts strait.

So let me point you to the card i mentioned:

http://www.hisdigital.com/us/product2-580.shtml

Please check the interface for me and report back to me when you are done.

Also be aware that there are NVIDIA cards of the 9xxx range released for the PCI slot (_NOT_ PCI-e!!)

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.12.28 10:41:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Doublewhopper
Edited by: Doublewhopper on 28/12/2010 03:55:45
Originally by: Soldarius
Edited by: Soldarius on 27/12/2010 10:22:26

All the new DX11 cards that I have seen are PCI-e. Check your facts before hand plz. Fact of the matter is that PCI is becoming obsolete, as it has been superceded by the much faster PCI-Express interface.

As far as AGP, well... the laptop I bought 6 years ago had a PCI-e interface. I did happen to see an AGP eGPU on the shelf at Staples the other day. But honestly, upgrade to PCI-e as soon as you can. You won't regret it.


You are very funny and too lazy to even use Google for a minute, but wildly accusing others of not having their facts strait.

So let me point you to the card i mentioned:

http://www.hisdigital.com/us/product2-580.shtml

Please check the interface for me and report back to me when you are done.

Also be aware that there are NVIDIA cards of the 9xxx range released for the PCI slot (_NOT_ PCI-e!!)


Thank you for the link. The card you mention is indeed PCI, rather than PCI-E, and it does support many of the new methods and protocols, such as DX11 and shader model 5.0.

However, contrary to your assertion that I am lazy, I in fact did a great deal of research on graphics cards in preparation for building my custom rig. As I said in my post, which you either did not read thoroughly or chose to ignore, I simply didn't bother to look at something that was designed in the early 90s and has been obsolete for many years.

As far as not using google, I found this on the interwebz. Doublewhopper, I suggest you lay off the fast food and spend some of your savings on a new mobo. Perhaps one built within the last 10 years.

Doublewhopper
Posted - 2010.12.28 20:06:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Soldarius

Thank you for the link. The card you mention is indeed PCI, rather than PCI-E, and it does support many of the new methods and protocols, such as DX11 and shader model 5.0.

However, contrary to your assertion that I am lazy, I in fact did a great deal of research on graphics cards in preparation for building my custom rig. As I said in my post, which you either did not read thoroughly or chose to ignore, I simply didn't bother to look at something that was designed in the early 90s and has been obsolete for many years.

As far as not using google, I found this on the interwebz. Doublewhopper, I suggest you lay off the fast food and spend some of your savings on a new mobo. Perhaps one built within the last 10 years.


Thank you for your interesting link which is very funny since it seems to be recently updated and contains information that is more than 5 years old...let me share what i have learned out of it:

Quote:
Q:Is PCI Express Video Faster than AGP Video?
A:Yes and No.
[...]

So, what this means is that in terms of real world performance there may not be a huge difference between AGP and PCI Express if you are talking about identical chipsets. Unfortunately this is very hard to prove because graphics chipsets are designed either for PCI Express or AGP.
[...]
If you have a system with AGP on it, it doesn't make sense to upgrade just to get PCI-E video right now.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.01.13 13:27:00 - [143]
 

Since some folks are discussing M$ operating systems and DX support, here is a reference on OS life cycles. And more importantly, this page links to the actual OS support life cycles. When an OS reaches the end of its support life cycle, then it is truly time to move on.

CrispyChick
Posted - 2011.01.15 15:10:00 - [144]
 

It seems the move to shader model 3 has been called off.
There is still no transition date announced nor any warning issued for people not using the forums.

Additionally the SM3Checker has been removed from the server and is not available anymore.

Delcu
Amarr
Old Timers Guild Inc.
Fusion Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.19 23:42:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Delcu on 19/01/2011 23:42:02
Originally by: CrispyChick
It seems the move to shader model 3 has been called off.
There is still no transition date announced nor any warning issued for people not using the forums.

Additionally the SM3Checker has been removed from the server and is not available anymore.


They did say they expected it in Q2 of 2011. So we still might be seeing the change at some point.

Would be nice to have the checker back available, the recent CPU changes are starting to stir interest in this change again now that folks cant play anymore.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2011.01.21 05:34:00 - [146]
 

Forget about checking if your card supports SM 3.0
What you really want^^^^need is to go out and buy two Nvidia cards. Thats right, I said TWO. One will be for crappy PhysX so you can walk in stations with more than 5 fps. This is the future by CCP&Nvidia bribe "marketing" money.

Lord Gragert
Minmatar
Mercury Metal Mining
Posted - 2011.01.21 12:03:00 - [147]
 

I might be a little late to this discussion, but I want to comment that this will prevent me from playing at work. :(

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.26 09:55:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/10/2010 18:55:47
Is there a reason to continue supporting ShaderModel 3.0? I can't imagine there are too many out there using that either. SM 4.0 cards are dirt cheap, less than $50.

It sounds good in theory, unfortunately SM 4.0 requires DX10, which requires Windows Vista and above. According to the Valve hardware survey, only 70% of Windows users are running Vista or 7, even though 85.5% of Windows systems have an SM 4.0-capable GPU.
So to upgrade wouldn't only be a $40 graphics card, but also a $130 OS (and that's for the upgrade version of the home version).

Not to mention that EVE doesn't currently have an SM 4.0 version (though IIRC most 3.0 shaders will compile fine as 4.0) or more importantly a DX 10 version, and Cider (for the mac client) doesn't support SM 4.0 or DX 10 either.


Going DX10 makes no sense.
Going DX11 make a lot of sense.
Since DX11 has fallback paths to DX10.1, DX10 and DX9.

Rhok Relztem
Caldari
CGMA Synergist Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.27 17:45:00 - [149]
 

Called off my arse. CCP just hasn't had the balls to admit that it's already in effect. Those of us who can't access the Character Creator are just the first casualties of this unannounced switch to SM3. Would have been nice if they had given us some advance warning. Mad

Gartanus
Caldari
Gartanus Corp
Posted - 2011.01.27 20:29:00 - [150]
 

Yay! My card supports SM3! Whew!


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