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blankseplocked I was wondering whats the point of posting kill/loss mails?
 
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Herrring
Amarr
National Quality Breaker
Posted - 2010.10.06 12:22:00 - [1]
 

you post intel for the enemy.

So for example, if someone wants to gank someone sitting at top belt, you could go to the kill board and see if they are actually solo pvpers or baiting for a blob or see how experienced they are.

But if you dont post any kill/loss mails, whoevers looking at your stats wont have any intel about your fits/associates/experience.

SO isnt it bad to post all your kill/loss mails?





Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.10.06 12:36:00 - [2]
 

Corporations / Alliances use killmails as a record of participation. Also, when you apply to one claiming you are an experienced PvP pilot, they will want to see the killmails proving it.

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.10.06 13:01:00 - [3]
 

It is a balance between giving intel, and having a record for your achievements. Major League Baseball doesn't have to keep player statistics, but they do, because people love that crap. This way we can talk about efficiency, raw isk values, yadda yadda yadda.

The thing about MMOs is, in general people spend more time talking/thinking about them than they do playing them. Forums, EveMon, EFT, killboards, guides, wikis, etc.

Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2010.10.06 14:26:00 - [4]
 

Kill board doesn't always give you that much, and you don't always have that much time to size up your target. Unless their a really creature of habit, i.e always solo, always use the same ship and fit, you'll probably not learn that much.

And besides they're a way of keeping score. :P

Starnap
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2010.10.07 11:32:00 - [5]
 

Points. Cool

Ratchman
Posted - 2010.10.07 11:43:00 - [6]
 

I understand what you mean. It can be a problem if you fly the same ship with the same setup all the time, as it gives your enemies the key with which to defeat you. But this is why it's good to vary the ships you fly anyway.

Some people do seem to treat killmails as the holy grail. They provide some useful metrics, but that's all they are at the end of the day.

I have to admit, it does bug me when people are shouting "post the kill mail" before the engagement is even over. Is it really that important?

Astald Ohtar
AtlantiA French Corp
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.10.07 12:33:00 - [7]
 

for an FC it is , cause its gives valuable informations on your corp-mates fitting and your enemies fittings. and it makes it easier to make counter strategies for the next battle. may be not really essential in low sec roams, but can be life saving in 0.0/high sec wars

Gallactica
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
Posted - 2010.10.07 13:58:00 - [8]
 

^^ also for an FC, after a fight you can quickly see who has been shooting the primaries and who is just being a KM *****.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2010.10.07 14:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Gallactica
^^ also for an FC, after a fight you can quickly see who has been shooting the primaries and who is just being a KM *****.


You also get to see who doesn't know how to fit so you can help straighten them out.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.07 17:49:00 - [10]
 

Your point about intel is really only valid for solo PvP - or very small gang (3-5) PvP.

Fits/stats are only useful in a "he only flies minnie ships" sort of way unless its solo. For solo PvP Battleclinic's "Known ships" section is very nice if you're browsing an active solo PvPr's stats. It'll normally show you the last few fits he/she lost on a particular ship, so you can see what they were thinking/how they changed over time.

In fleet it doesn't matter. Gateganks the same.

I sync'ed with BC as it was a lot more friendly than browsing your in-game kills/losses. Still is.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.10.07 20:26:00 - [11]
 

agreed... this whole "keeping score" thing is so (ahem) pointless.

I think all games, baseball, football, soccer, rugby, etc would be far better with no means of keeping score.

Kerr avonn
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.07 22:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping
I think all games, baseball, football, soccer, rugby, etc would be far better with no means of keeping score.

you'd rather watch men run around for 90 minutes getting all sweaty and hot and have the whole score thingy as superfluous bonus for stat freaks?
Now that is bordering on the perverse.

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.10.08 15:38:00 - [13]
 

We always delay posting mails because it gives very valuable information about fleet setup.

If there are hostiles incoming we always look at their killboard first and if there's a very recent kill, more often then not 80% of their current fleet is on that mail.

That way you can see if you have what it takes to make a counter to it and what to fly.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.08 16:27:00 - [14]
 

Three reasons:

1. epeen
2. epeen
3. epeen

The other reasons people mentioned can also be done by posting on private killboards. Additionally, directors already have access to kill and loss stats so can easily determine participation that way. If people really wanted an accurate record, they would post all their losses too, but in my experience less than 50% of the people that post their kills on killboards also post their losses.

People want to show off their awesomeness and KB's are a good way to do it.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2010.10.08 16:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

1. epeen
2. epeen
3. epeen


Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.10.08 17:08:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Three reasons:

1. epeen
2. epeen
3. epeen

The other reasons people mentioned can also be done by posting on private killboards. Additionally, directors already have access to kill and loss stats so can easily determine participation that way. If people really wanted an accurate record, they would post all their losses too, but in my experience less than 50% of the people that post their kills on killboards also post their losses.

People want to show off their awesomeness and KB's are a good way to do it.




Agreed... there's no reason to keep score but unreasonable pride. With legitimate team sports, they always do their best to keep very quiet about their scores... especially if they win. It's very important to avoid accusations of "pride" after all. What do they have to be proud of? Being good at what they do? Pshaw!

hint hint: plenty of people api their KM's... kills AND losses.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.10.08 18:54:00 - [17]
 

Kill mails are a record of participation for Corps and alliances. Also for Merc corps killboards are the measuring stick. ****ty KB = ****ty MC.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.08 23:15:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping

Agreed... there's no reason to keep score but unreasonable pride. With legitimate team sports, they always do their best to keep very quiet about their scores... especially if they win. It's very important to avoid accusations of "pride" after all. What do they have to be proud of? Being good at what they do? Pshaw!

hint hint: plenty of people api their KM's... kills AND losses.


Hint: EVE is not a sports game.

Being proud of your e-prowess and trying to show that prowess to others is the very definition of epeen. I don't mind people showing off but I dislike showoffs that pretend they are not doing it for the epeen reasons.

Last week I made 7 kills, and lost my ship 4 times. Only 1 kill appears on the public boards, while all 4 losses appear on the boards. When I look at boards like Battleclinic, I see roughly about 50% of my kills. Meaning that other people post about 50% of their losses on public boards.

If you do believe this is like sports scoring, then how do you explain people avoiding keeping score when they 'lose'?

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.09 04:46:00 - [19]
 

It's good for verifying that your merc corp is decent at what they do. Otherwise, no, no real point.

Which is why my K:D looks pitiful on the boards, I have yet to post anything and no one involved in PvP with me from the losing end seems interested in posting the data for some reason O.o

Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
Posted - 2010.10.09 05:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Herrring
you post intel for the enemy.

So for example, if someone wants to gank someone sitting at top belt, you could go to the kill board and see if they are actually solo pvpers or baiting for a blob or see how experienced they are.

But if you dont post any kill/loss mails, whoevers looking at your stats wont have any intel about your fits/associates/experience.

SO isnt it bad to post all your kill/loss mails?





Epeen. Plain and simple. If it was just a number, not fitting, not intel, people would still post every single kill they got. Because Epeen is all what KM is about.

Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
Posted - 2010.10.09 05:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Corporations / Alliances use killmails as a record of participation. Also, when you apply to one claiming you are an experienced PvP pilot, they will want to see the killmails proving it.
And that has nothing to do with posting to kill boards. CEOs get all the mails sent to them and if it was just about this, then KBs wouldn't be needed. It's all about the Epeen man.

Sjugar
Posted - 2010.10.09 13:06:00 - [22]
 

And what is wrong with a bit of Epeen? A lot of people make it sound bad.

What I don't like is how primitive the statistic are though. It promotes less efficient play because the measure is just whether you get on the killmail or not, promoting killmail whoring. There should be a measure also for how well "non-shooty" ships do.
Like a "catch-board" for interdictors and a "I-saved-this-amount-of-ships-board" for logistics.

TehFailGuy
Posted - 2010.10.09 17:19:00 - [23]
 

So we can all laugh at people who get PLEX destroyed in a Kestrel

Santiago Fahahrri
Gallente
Galactic Geographic
Posted - 2010.10.09 22:11:00 - [24]
 

Kill-mails are crutches for the weak. I would love to see them abolished.

Captain Blart
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.09 23:06:00 - [25]
 

because proving the entire world you can kill a badger with 10 BS is very important

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.10.09 23:13:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 09/10/2010 23:15:55

Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Tom Peeping

Agreed... there's no reason to keep score but unreasonable pride. With legitimate team sports, they always do their best to keep very quiet about their scores... especially if they win. It's very important to avoid accusations of "pride" after all. What do they have to be proud of? Being good at what they do? Pshaw!

hint hint: plenty of people api their KM's... kills AND losses.


Hint: EVE is not a sports game.

Being proud of your e-prowess and trying to show that prowess to others is the very definition of epeen. I don't mind people showing off but I dislike showoffs that pretend they are not doing it for the epeen reasons.

Last week I made 7 kills, and lost my ship 4 times. Only 1 kill appears on the public boards, while all 4 losses appear on the boards. When I look at boards like Battleclinic, I see roughly about 50% of my kills. Meaning that other people post about 50% of their losses on public boards.

If you do believe this is like sports scoring, then how do you explain people avoiding keeping score when they 'lose'?



Hint... eve is a competitive game.

Score is a part of that... You're surprised that some people resort to dishonorable measures to boost their "score"? That actually supports my point rather than yours, that the score is important even though eve is a "sandbox" and that it's not as structured as a team sport. It's still possible to recognize people who "do well".

Second point... battleclinic is a horrible killboard... right now I'm ranked at about 2000ish with a main, and I'm API'd into my killboard. Battleclinic only shows about half of my kills as well.... I'm not API'd into BC because I already know that it's a horrible board. Sooooo... why do you think that talking about a horrible board having poor stats affects the fact that eve is a competitive game in any fashion at all?

3rd point.... "you dislike showoffs that pretend that they are not doing it for the epeen reasons". I know that some people do get trollish with their scores... but that again has nothing to do with the overall point under discussion. I know some extremely stupid atheists who I would never want to see in a discussion with a pro-intelligent design person, because I know they'd lose the debate... does that alter the fact that evolution is the best current scientific theory? Does any argument get affected in it's fundamentals because some people who may or may not support it, are stupid? Also... your assessment that they are doing it for epeen reasons is purely your own theory... you're probably right about some.... almost certainly wrong about others.

Ultimately, you've not brought up any conversational elements that actually matter to the argument.


Tom Peeping
Posted - 2010.10.09 23:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Kill-mails are crutches for the weak. I would love to see them abolished.


Actually, I'd say that CCP's complete failure to see that killmails are important to many people is just one of the symptoms of their "disconnect" with the players.

Honestly, if CCP really had a better connection, they'd realize that the current bugs with killmails, that have existed for a looooong time, where people don't appear on KM's, or where the dmg calculations are all wrong, or the wrong weapons show up, is actually a big deal to players (or at least a constant minor annoyance).

They'd also realize that their complete failure to provide any effective "in-game" means of "keeping score" is uber-fail. The mere fact that sooooo many people do utilize out of game tools such as killboards, demonstrates conclusively that there is strong demand for such elements. Just one more way in which CCP doesn't "get" their own players. Sure not everyone pvp's... but for those that do, it's an important element that CCP should have latched onto years ago.

Jason W0rthing
Posted - 2010.10.10 02:00:00 - [28]
 

I post killmails/lossmails so that the alliances I join know how bad I am at pvp. It seems to be working as I am often swiftly booted from fleets with angry vent words screamed at me. Or maybe that's just because I always show up to armor rr gangs in a plated drake. I really don't know.

Perfection Tau
Cuties Only.
Posted - 2010.10.17 22:53:00 - [29]
 

Not posting a kill or especially loss is one of most serious violations in my alliance. Having private kb will flame accusations in omitting losses from political opponents. So it's better for everyone to keep it open and honest. Such "Intel" is less valuable than people might think.

1) All titan pilots are well known and friendlisted by those who care
2) Currently active hostile gang's shiptype and locations constantly reported and updated on respective secure channels.
3) There's barely a need to know what certain pilot can fly, what he's flying right now is more important. Evaluating corp, alliance, date of birth etc gives more valuable info at glance
4) Also there's cathegory of talented and/or stubborn pilots who excels in flying one ship, usually solo so seeing him ppl say "Hey it's **** always in covops tengu"
5) Some kb's got safety measures IE hiding locations and praticipants for X hours after kill occured.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2010.10.18 09:50:00 - [30]
 

Its a great intel tool.

I just spent the last 2 or 3 days going through battleclinic for my next war target. From killboards alone I have 70% of the pilots in the alliance in friends. I have each persons notes tab filled out with the types of ships they fly, capabilities they have exhibited (ecm, stealth, tackling) as well as mining missioning intel. I know who is a pvp'r, they're set red, who is a missioner, set orange, and who is a indy / miner, set blue.

From the killboard intel I then had covert ops alts go out with ship scanners to the areas the missioners frequent, and have scans of their mission ships and faction / rare mods in the info tab too.

Most of this would have been impossible without killmails. Thank you killmails.



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