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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2010.10.16 16:46:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: ViolenTUK on 16/10/2010 17:07:11

Sig Sour
Posted - 2010.10.16 17:17:00 - [92]
 

The Drake is great, has been for many years. If the tactic pepople are using for them right now does not have a counter, a counter should be created instead of nerfing a ship that is balanced just fine when its not in a blob.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.16 18:16:00 - [93]
 

Especially as there are no doubt plenty of other ships that would be similarly horrible if blobbed up that people just haven't noticed yet.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.16 18:18:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Sig Sour
The Drake is great, has been for many years. If the tactic pepople are using for them right now does not have a counter, a counter should be created instead of nerfing a ship that is balanced just fine when its not in a blob.


try warping a bunch of amarr BS on top of them. they melt quiet nicely. ;)

ugaloo
Posted - 2010.10.16 20:40:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Oh I wasn't saying there was any nerfing going on, indirect or otherwise, just that the point about "The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years." is ****ing stupid.


You probably didnt understand.

ICU Now
Posted - 2010.10.18 20:10:00 - [96]
 

The Drake is a well balanced BC that is atypically versatile for Caldari ships when it comes to fitting them. I have a HM fleet fit and HAM solo fit that serves me nicely. I don't see that it is any better or worse (all races' ships have pluses / minuses) than any other ship. As a matter of fact, I find that the other races I have cross trained into are easier to fit in general than Caldari is. What makes it a great fleet ship is that you can get a reasonable BC for 40m isk - it isn't great it and it doesn't suck. I have seen well run Drake army fleets and poorly run fleets - it was a function of the FC's more so than the ships themselves. Like anything in this game, as in life, this is what is fashionable. The fad will pass and there will be another flavor of the month fleet type very soon.

Then we will be subjected to the whining from the losers from those battles on the forum - it's just the cycle of life and Eve.

Inspiration
Posted - 2010.10.18 20:35:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Inspiration on 18/10/2010 20:38:51
Originally by: Aerilis
Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.


Took them only a few years to see what drakes are best used for :)

And every ship has its best use, just find ways to counter. For example, you can sensor damp their ships (but they can do it too), they pose much less of a thread at that range (FoF missiles do less DPS and mostly not carried anyway). And even many drakes die horribly to just a few remote repairing amarr BS, they literally implode!

So take your pick ;)

Stalking Mantis
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.10.19 09:56:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Stalking Mantis on 19/10/2010 10:04:49
You see this is why ppl fail at EVE. All they think is tank and gank. The Gallente are THE LAST race that should worry about drakes as they have an ECM speciality of Sensor Damps. Try Sensor Damps/Rails/SentryDrones/Extremly Long Points.

Did I just give tactical advise to the Gallente? It doesnt matter because after the above 95% of EVE players will think Gank and Tank.

Maulus give me 7 of these with sebo range and two sensor damps and long range drakes are useless
Ninja Edit for frig advise

Acru Si
Amarr
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.19 10:07:00 - [99]
 

I fear the Drake would still be superior to other t1 BCs even if they removed one of its med slots. (godforbid Wink)

Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:08:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Bad Messenger on 19/10/2010 11:10:24
Drake is in balance. If you know how to play, drake is not overpower thing in range fleets at all. Basically any fleet that has same numbers than drake fleets needs, is good on their job.

But as OP is in gallente militia and they think they are superior pvpers, flying thinks that was FOTM like a 2 years ago, no wonder he is whining about drakes.

Fact is that only thing why drakes are so popular is that almost every newbie trains them for missioning/ratting and then they can fly those in range pvp fleets too.

If you have option to choose from any ship in eve and form a gang from those, you will not choose drakes.

Edit: OP is gallente, he has trouble with his enemies, he is shouting CCP to help, as usual.

Tosi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Monocle Overlords
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:19:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Tosi on 19/10/2010 11:46:00
Sir Francis Drake dissaproves!
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Acru Si
Amarr
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.19 11:45:00 - [102]
 

What you get out of a ~60 milion isk T2 fitted inssurable T1 Drake?

With proper scimitar support DRAKES WILL NOT DIE !! (not until scimitars are disabled//chased off//killed ) (*artilery fit battleships have a chance to alpha drakes but its hard to pull off on laggy conditions). Moreover DRAKES WILL NOT BE FORCED TO WARP OFF !!! (you're not spending your time warping in and out of combat until you land in a bubble and die). No other t1 hull can do this for the price. Some T2/T3s will be able to match/outmatch performance but with significant pricetag and will be primary magnets...

Now on top of this excellent survability,add superior DPS(vs most targets) (range 40-80km) to all battlecruisers.

Bringing any other BC to a "Drake Fleet" is like bringing a knife to a gun fight...

I would advise you to start training for drake asap, but (most of)you already did :) as shown by all killboards.


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.19 12:39:00 - [103]
 

Quote:
With proper scimitar support DRAKES WILL NOT DIE !



I think this says a lot more about Scimitar balance than Drake balance TBH. As I've said before in the rest of this thread that you obviously haven't bothered reading: you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships.

Acru Si
Amarr
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.19 12:58:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships.


true to a point, logistics empower every gang...however depending of the enemy firepower it can be much easier to keep drakes alive with say 20 logistics and borderline impossible to keep other BC's alive. The rez bonus and ehp buffer of the drake makes it possible..

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.10.19 13:01:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Acru Si
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington

you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships.


true to a point, logistics empower every gang...however depending of the enemy firepower it can be much easier to keep drakes alive with say 20 logistics and borderline impossible to keep other BC's alive. The rez bonus and ehp buffer of the drake makes it possible..


Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive, and if the fleet is large enough to insta a properly fitted bc (roughly about 45k ehp, on weakest resist) the fleet would be large enough to insta any bc.

Acru Si
Amarr
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.19 13:51:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf


Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive...


No.

In large enough engagements there will be a lot of factors undermining logistics performance.

Nr.1 is of course lag - increasing the delay before the primary broadcasts and logistics are able to rep. (stuck modules,list update delays u've been there.. ).
Nr.2 is E-war - enemy ecm drones, ecm, damps, neut modules will all negatively impact logistic response.
Nr.3 is broadcast noise - effective bomb raids usually cause broadcast floods that prevent logistics from locking into the actual primary..
And so on...

So you depend on EHP until logistics can lock onto you (not enough and you will die before even the first rep cycle arrives - few t1 ships can achieve drake EHP) and you depend on rezistances for the logistics to stop you from melting under the enemy fire when logistics actually start repping (again few t1 ships can achieve drake resitances).

So for Drake the winning recipe is monster EHP, godlike rezists and superior DPS in the 40-80 km range to any other BC.



Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:19:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Acru Si
Originally by: Korg Leaf


Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive...


No.

In large enough engagements there will be a lot of factors undermining logistics performance.

Nr.1 is of course lag - increasing the delay before the primary broadcasts and logistics are able to rep. (stuck modules,list update delays u've been there.. ).
Nr.2 is E-war - enemy ecm drones, ecm, damps, neut modules will all negatively impact logistic response.
Nr.3 is broadcast noise - effective bomb raids usually cause broadcast floods that prevent logistics from locking into the actual primary..
And so on...

So you depend on EHP until logistics can lock onto you (not enough and you will die before even the first rep cycle arrives - few t1 ships can achieve drake EHP) and you depend on rezistances for the logistics to stop you from melting under the enemy fire when logistics actually start repping (again few t1 ships can achieve drake resitances).

So for Drake the winning recipe is monster EHP, godlike rezists and superior DPS in the 40-80 km range to any other BC.





That was kinda my point both gangs would suffer the same problems of lag and so on, and although the drakes ehp is superior the gap isnt that large that it would be impossible to overcome.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:24:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake.

I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit:
Quote:
[Drake, hml]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5


This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km)
On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous...

Thoughts?



Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed?

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:27:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed?


It is actually a pretty good fleet pvp fit. although one might drop one TP for a sensor damp for more annoyance.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2010.10.19 14:32:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed?


It is actually a pretty good fleet pvp fit. although one might drop one TP for a sensor damp for more annoyance.


Still not a good reason to nerf the drake

Lacco
draketrain
Posted - 2010.10.19 15:36:00 - [111]
 

draketrain recruiting Cool

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2010.10.19 20:54:00 - [112]
 

Killboard listings like that lack something vital: Context.

Drakes may be popular in large nullsec fleets because of their cost, damage projection, and overall EHP, but it is incredibly rare that I see a Drake roaming in lowsec, solo or in a gang.

The Drake just doesn't have the DPS and versatility in point range that other BCs do. Drakes are also slow, lumbering, and have a large sig radius. Much of what it can catch will run away.

Due to the magic of missile implementation, the theoretical 20.3km range for HAMs is really more like 18km. If you're HAM fit and a more agile kiter comes along, the best you can hope for is that you have Javs, and that they deal enough damage to force a stalemate. Most of the time they don't, so you get to die slowly.

You can nano it up and use HLs with a long point as a kiting fit, but the speed of your targets means your applied damage is fairly low in that case as well since at range you aren't webbing your target. And, really, you're stuck dealing Kinetic, unless you want to give up that big bonus.

Something else you can do with the Drake, which would be suicidal against a gun boat, is to fly directly away from it to pull range as quickly as possible.

Oh, and that great big EHP buffer? It's only great and big as long as the invulns are running, unlike the EANMs for armor tankers that cannot be turned off. The Drake doesn't have much cap to begin with; add a MWD, and 2 Invulns, point, web if you have one, and a neut - even a small one - is a serious threat.

The Drake has its own set of issues, just like every ship. If it was really a great ship then more people would be flying it - but all I see on my DScan in the BattleCruiser range is the Hurricane, sometimes the Harbinger, and the occasional Myrmidon.

I would like to see it get a slight agility and speed boost. That would help it become viable in low sec and not really affect the null sec blobs.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.19 22:07:00 - [113]
 

^ Nice post.
Shame they'll ignore it.

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.10.19 23:21:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
^ Nice post.
Shame they'll ignore it.


+1. All the ugliness of drake pretty much covered. Have been the drake playing catch up in mixed fleets cause everyone elses BC's may as well have been inty's in terms of agility and speed compared to it. This stuff that after a few months and more people x-train to drake will realize as well. Drake not a perfect ship....its good, but not perfect and not op.


Also is the fun factoid that in mixed smaller engangements...if only 2 targets, you might get 1 salvo on the 2nd target to ho the mail. Keyword might. Being useful dps with less than 4 ships to kill, nope. Can boost to get faster locks, still got that missile travel time. For those who haven't flown or haven't noticed since drake new to them....at about 40 km's something magical happens. You fire your second salvo but first hasn't even hit yet. Gun runners...are already a few salvo's in and started their damage dealing. Like being in the running for top damage dealer...drake will disappoint you many a times ( I have gotten it once or twice...mainyly because the other guy on the mail was the inty tackler using small weapons lol) . Like being final blow, odds are in favor of the gun lovers as well.


V'hellu
Posted - 2010.10.19 23:28:00 - [115]
 

I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....

Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.20 00:53:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/10/2010 00:59:50
Originally by: V'hellu
I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....

Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....


You're thinking of the nano nerf. At the same time as speeds were nerfed, missiles were rebalanced so they could actually hit things (albeit still with damage reductions, just not ridiculously huge ones).

Drakes have never been nerfed as such, and missiles in general got a buff, but as I've pointed out last page the other battlecruisers (most recently the Hurricane) have also seen buffs.

Oh and one more point (unrelated to the above): as I've also explained on the previous page, taking killboard stats and saying "Drake is the #1 most used ship, this makes it OP" is just as ****ing stupid as the rest of the nerf calling.

I'd love to see the reaction if someone put a Cerb/Scimi blob together. Similar (pure missile) dps to a Drake with better resists, higher mobility and better range, plus faster missile flight.
And the example that's actually in practice now of getting armour Zealots together with Guardian support. Insanely powerful combination as shown by the fact there are now nerf threads for the Zea- oh wait, no there aren't...

V'hellu
Posted - 2010.10.20 00:58:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: V'hellu
I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....

Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....


You're thinking of the nano nerf. At the same time as speeds were nerfed, missiles were rebalanced so they could actually hit things (albeit still with damage reductions, just not ridiculously huge ones).

Drakes have never been nerfed as such, and missiles in general got a buff, but as I've pointed out last page the other battlecruisers (most recently the Hurricane) have also seen buffs.


Hmm. I thought they nerfed the shield tanking on drakes also, at least that's what I was told when I used to fly drakes.

If that isn't true, then drake shields are a bit OP. I remember once, I tanked either a damnation or absolution in a drake (I forget which is which, it was the field command ship), and almost killed it in a drake against a pirate who had a few years more on my character at the time. Also, it's not too terribly difficult to gear a drake up to tank level 4 missions, which is a bit absurd imo.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.20 01:01:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/10/2010 01:02:29
Quote:
Hmm. I thought they nerfed the shield tanking on drakes also, at least that's what I was told when I used to fly drakes.


IIRC they nerfed the passive recharge somewhat.

Quote:
If that isn't true, then drake shields are a bit OP. I remember once, I tanked either a damnation or absolution in a drake (I forget which is which, it was the field command ship), and almost killed it in a drake against a pirate who had a few years more on my character at the time.


That was a pretty ****-poor Absolution tbh.

Quote:
Also, it's not too terribly difficult to gear a drake up to tank level 4 missions, which is a bit absurd imo.


Yes, it can tank them.
Good luck doing them in a remotely sensible time compared to a BS though. This situation is fine.
(Also PVE and PVP balance should never be mixed.)

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.10.20 01:25:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 20/10/2010 01:33:46
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
[Yes, it can tank them.
Good luck doing them in a remotely sensible time compared to a BS though. This situation is fine.
(Also PVE and PVP balance should never be mixed.)



This....only run lv 4 in drake if just training for nighthawk or tengu and don't want to train a raven up to get their faster. Unless rats are serps (kinetic bonus of ship and kinetic weakness of the serps does make drake pretty decent)...its painful And tengu kind of replaces NH because lows are all freed up for the usual 3-4 CN BCU damage mod setups and you just speed tank the lv 4 once you kill off frigates with extreme prejudice.

Gets us back to the main drake drawback....it tanks, but don't gank well solo or in small numbers. 50 of anything will hurt something. Hell after rocket buff as planned, some caldari frigs (edit: and the worm)in large gangs are gonna hurt more. But this is for a future whine thread lol

Acru Si
Amarr
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.10.20 03:52:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Killboard listings like that lack something vital: Context.

Drakes may be popular in large nullsec fleets because of their cost, damage projection, and overall EHP, but it is incredibly rare that I see a Drake roaming in lowsec, solo or in a gang.

The Drake just doesn't have the DPS and versatility in point range that other BCs do. Drakes are also slow, lumbering, and have a large sig radius. Much of what it can catch will run away.

Due to the magic of missile implementation, the theoretical 20.3km range for HAMs is really more like 18km. If you're HAM fit and a more agile kiter comes along, the best you can hope for is that you have Javs, and that they deal enough damage to force a stalemate. Most of the time they don't, so you get to die slowly.

You can nano it up and use HLs with a long point as a kiting fit, but the speed of your targets means your applied damage is fairly low in that case as well since at range you aren't webbing your target. And, really, you're stuck dealing Kinetic, unless you want to give up that big bonus.

Something else you can do with the Drake, which would be suicidal against a gun boat, is to fly directly away from it to pull range as quickly as possible.

Oh, and that great big EHP buffer? It's only great and big as long as the invulns are running, unlike the EANMs for armor tankers that cannot be turned off. The Drake doesn't have much cap to begin with; add a MWD, and 2 Invulns, point, web if you have one, and a neut - even a small one - is a serious threat.

The Drake has its own set of issues, just like every ship. If it was really a great ship then more people would be flying it - but all I see on my DScan in the BattleCruiser range is the Hurricane, sometimes the Harbinger, and the occasional Myrmidon.

I would like to see it get a slight agility and speed boost. That would help it become viable in low sec and not really affect the null sec blobs.


+1

Solo or in small gangs drakes are not much of a threat (caldari ship after all). Its when they reach critical mass numbers and get logistics support(in medium-big fleets) that they begin to outperform other battlecruisers.


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