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Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:04:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 15/10/2010 00:12:43
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please.



this lol....when I left null sec a few months ago (little eve break, now just running missions here and there as time allows, no real time to devote to fun stuff) me flying a drake well since caldari and $5 would get me a up of coffee. "Can you fly something else besides drake?" was asked many a time as I did my long grind to t2 rails for snipe rokh. Crow or navy crapacal to ghetto HAC roams was the reply usually lol...Fotm was, as it usually has been, armor and guns. Hell my corp was highly recommmending x-train to be more useful, minny often mentioned. Took a a few years but someone realized ohh crap, failadari not so bad after all. Deal with it.


CCP gave us drake....I call it a consolation prize for the abundance of crap ships we have. Faildari pilots have been dealing with "you need to cross train out of your fail race" for years. Now...you come to us. Don't worry, you have lots of ships you can say still suck (flycatcher for example, will probably always be good for the response "anyone got a real dictor" in comms lol).

CorsairV
Gallente
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.15 00:49:00 - [62]
 

I agree with the guy that said to buff the other battlecruisers. However, you might want to speedbuff the HACs to keep the drake from overshadowing the cerberus.

Turix
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.10.15 01:00:00 - [63]
 

As per Eve-Kill Top 20:

Rank    Ships    Kills
1 Drake 219593
2 Hurricane 76475
3 Zealot 54785
4 Vagabond 31903
5 Megathron 29854
6 Harbinger 27691
7 Tempest 26191
8 Abaddon 22355
9 Dramiel 21279
10 Sabre 20926
11 Armageddon 20818
12 Hound 18974
13 Rapier 18226
14 Scimitar 18010
15 Muninn 17928
16 Manticore 17365
17 Apocalypse 16341
18 Cynabal 12365
19 Loki 10948
20 Myrmidon 10796


Yeah, FOTM alright :x

Sakura Shiro
Posted - 2010.10.15 01:59:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 15/10/2010 02:54:27
Originally by: Turix
As per Eve-Kill Top 20:

Rank    Ships    Kills
1 Drake 219593
2 Hurricane 76475
3 Zealot 54785
4 Vagabond 31903
5 Megathron 29854
6 Harbinger 27691
7 Tempest 26191
8 Abaddon 22355
9 Dramiel 21279
10 Sabre 20926
11 Armageddon 20818
12 Hound 18974
13 Rapier 18226
14 Scimitar 18010
15 Muninn 17928
16 Manticore 17365
17 Apocalypse 16341
18 Cynabal 12365
19 Loki 10948
20 Myrmidon 10796


Yeah, FOTM alright :x



Lots of minny ships in that list....amarr has a good showing as well.

Also remember drake if run in the right fleets picks up easy kills. Its support....kills support ships. I tried to limit my KM ho'ing personally and kill what I was supposed to. If enemy fleet went t1 cruiser trash heavy....padded kills but didn't do **** for isk killed totals :( (edit: isk killed more important imo, 1 crapacal equals 10 minutes of ratting, pop a BS/T2 cruiser/cap km ho'age....someone feeling the wallet get noticeably lighter, hell rigs alone for a bs more than several crap fit t1 cruisers lol).


Also remember there is like 3 caldari ships worth flying in fleets. Drake, rokh and falcon. As the minny lists shows...duct tape gives some options. Spreads out the kills. Same with amarr. Caldari pilot...sees caps>bs>else annd bs' are well covered and fc says some support be nice, no brainer to take out the drake vice the rokh (people don't like seeing the rokn on ops anyway...not like it will be missed lol).

helmut cheddar
Posted - 2010.10.15 06:51:00 - [65]
 

Drakes are fine as they are, arty canes are pretty FOTM too for gang warfare, neither of them need a nerf IMHO. Didn't everyone used to moan that drakes were crap, don't some idiots (in the buff drake missile bonus thread) still try to claim drakes are PVE ships ? This is just a fad and a counter will emerge, mebbe try coming up with one urself instead of asking CCP to do it, it's not like drakes are dramiels, now thery really DO need a nerf

wizard87
Posted - 2010.10.15 11:13:00 - [66]
 

Completely overpowered for a ship that costs under 50 mil fitted.

Severian Sylpher
Centre Of Attention
Middle of Nowhere
Posted - 2010.10.15 11:22:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Severian Sylpher on 15/10/2010 11:29:45
Edited by: Severian Sylpher on 15/10/2010 11:25:03
top 20 kill list, add those numbers up by race and take a look

caldari - 236958 (2 ships)
minmatar - 210705 (7 ships)
amarr - 163886 (7 ships)
gallente - 40650 (2 ships)
faction - 33644 (2 ships)

just goes to show that yeah caldari only have 1 real decent ship and its the current fotm so what. minmatar have just as many kills just spread over multiple ships as someone mentioned earlier. really the only group that seems underrepresented at the moment is gallente, with just a few more kills than faction ships. So sure go ahead and nerf the drake i dont mind provided you bring the other caldari ships up to par!

Dummy Jumper
Posted - 2010.10.15 12:29:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Dummy Jumper on 15/10/2010 12:40:16
In my opinion Drake is greatly overpowered. And their is a simple reason for it - It have godly tank, great weapon ranges, ok dps and even can fit full tackle if needed without significant problems. Other ships have to make serious sacrafices to reach SOME of those traits but Drake got all of them for "free". Something have to go.


Originally by: helmut cheddar
arty canes are pretty FOTM too for gang warfare, neither of them need a nerf IMHO.


Shocked I agree that canes are good, they are even very good but this? ARTY cane as FOTM? Hurricane have to sacrifice everything to mount arty.

Originally by: Severian Sylpher

just goes to show that yeah caldari only have 1 real decent ship and its the current fotm so what.


Caldari have one greatly overpowered ship - Drake of course - and several ok pvp ships (Manticore, Rook, Falcon for example), most of their kills are in drakes due to overpowered FOTM status of it. I don't want to say that everything is great in Caldari line-up they are lacking in HACs department etc but you exaggerate their problems.

helmut cheddar
Posted - 2010.10.15 15:10:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: helmut cheddar on 15/10/2010 15:13:36
makes me laugh that a ship that has not changed in god knows how long barring a NERF to it's ammo and that everyone used to say was good for nothing except PVE is all of a sudden "OMG TOTALLY OP !!!" because people have figured out a use for it. A counter will just as quickly emerge and u'll all be *****ing about how useless it is again Rolling Eyes

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2010.10.15 15:12:00 - [70]
 

Don't nerf Drakes. They are the only battlecruisers which can effectively swat nano***s with heavy missiles; Other battlecruisers will be utterly outmatched by a Cynabal.

Nerf Angel ships before you nerf (if you nerf) Drakes.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.15 15:22:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: helmut cheddar
Edited by: helmut cheddar on 15/10/2010 15:13:36
makes me laugh that a ship that has not changed in god knows how long barring a NERF to it's ammo and that everyone used to say was good for nothing except PVE is all of a sudden "OMG TOTALLY OP !!!" because people have figured out a use for it. A counter will just as quickly emerge and u'll all be *****ing about how useless it is again Rolling Eyes


the irony is ... the got a bit FOTM, because they are a quite effective counter to AB armor hacs. :) and they can be beaten so easily. people just need to put some brain into it.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2010.10.15 17:06:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 15/10/2010 18:28:38
I've relocated my thoughts on the matter to here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1400166

Tub Chil
Posted - 2010.10.15 18:05:00 - [73]
 

fail thread
the only t1 caldari ship that is better than competitors
is that too much?

Jita mcheck
Posted - 2010.10.15 19:27:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Jita mcheck on 15/10/2010 19:31:53
Problem is nto only drakes but the nice bonus of shields and missle systems.

Heavy Missiles out range nearly every other long rang weapon system and do full dmg out to that range. Railguns are less popular because missiles are better.

Heavy missile range is a huge issue. There is nto enough of a downfall to using missiles currently. They are not as slow as the BS sized weapons and the travel time is not a huge negative factor. I believe missiles need a reductionin range and a decrease in speed. this nerf would affect the two most prominent ships..the drake and the tengue. Both ships are able to outperform other ships of the same class at specialized roles while also being a jack of all trades.(build me a better sniping SC with RR, there is also a reason drake armies are so common).


Secondly the down side of shields is not being noticable in it's effect. the bigger the shield the big the sig radius. this is by far a lesser penalty than being slower and less manoverable. Armor tanks fitting a battle ship sized plate can expect a signifigant impact to thier ship. Conversly a large shield extender does very little to negativly affect a drake. I would like to se the down side of shields be more noticible. With passive regen and no real down side shield tanking is becomeing very very common and armour gangs can't keep up and offer no benifit comparativly.

These changes would bring the drake into a more reasonable line.


PS
buff hybrids

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:03:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Jita mcheck
Problem is nto only drakes but the nice bonus of shields and missle systems.

Heavy Missiles out range nearly every other long rang weapon system and do full dmg out to that range. Railguns are less popular because missiles are better.

Heavy missile range is a huge issue. There is nto enough of a downfall to using missiles currently.


You totally missed post number 26?

Quote:
They are not as slow as the BS sized weapons and the travel time is not a huge negative factor.


The irony ... standard missiles, heavy missiles and cruise missiles have the same missile speed. they only differ in flight time. that means all have the same travel time until they hit a target. and on a full range fight, you will waste lots of missiles, because the target dies before they hit.

Quote:
I believe missiles need a reductionin range and a decrease in speed. this nerf would affect the two most prominent ships..the drake and the tengue. Both ships are able to outperform other ships of the same class at specialized roles while also being a jack of all trades.(build me a better sniping SC with RR, there is also a reason drake armies are so common).


been a long time since I read so much crap in one paragraph.

Quote:
Secondly the down side of shields is not being noticable in it's effect. the bigger the shield the big the sig radius. this is by far a lesser penalty than being slower and less manoverable. Armor tanks fitting a battle ship sized plate can expect a signifigant impact to thier ship. Conversly a large shield extender does very little to negativly affect a drake. I would like to se the down side of shields be more noticible. With passive regen and no real down side shield tanking is becomeing very very common and armour gangs can't keep up and offer no benifit comparativly.


a drake with extender rigs and 1 LSE has about 378m sig radius. that means even BS sized weapons hit for almost full dmg. a mwding drake gets hit for full dmg even by capital sized weapons. if you think that isnt a big difference compared to e.g. 240m sigradius of an armor tanked hurricane.

And funnily ... a shield tanked drake (1038) isnt much faster than a fully trimarked hurricane (1025) and the harb/brutix are just about 140m/s slower. shield tanked all other BCs out run the drake heavily.Rolling Eyes

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.15 22:48:00 - [76]
 

I think the problem with the drake lies in the versatility in range that heavy missiles give, taking into effect flight time their DPS fairly similar to long range medium guns. Unlike long range guns though the heavy missiles damage does not decrease as range decreases meaning that a missile fleet is the only fleet the can fight at which ever range is detrimental to their opponent. Combined with the buffer of a drake which is truly impressive even considering its em hole when compared with other sniper BC's it makes the drake incredibly versatile. And in a fleet of drakes a large portion of them do not have to be carrying target painters but can carry sensor dampeners or tracking disruptors allowing them to put a large amount of ewar on any enemy fleet.

When combined with scimitars and recon cruisers the drake is probably overpowered, but one on one against other BC's the drake is fairly well balanced. Unfortunately this means the drake will probably continue its rise as the preferred fleet BC.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.10.15 23:37:00 - [77]
 

There is nothing wrong with drakes tbh.

Yes they are currently pretty popular, but that in itself is not a reason to nerf something. As we've seen over the past couple of years, combat has moved to favouring medium range and HP tanks. This has been for numerous reasons (Scorch L, AC fall off boost etc) but one of the less observed reasons is because it helps to prevent mistakes. The guys can all huddle up and just have to shoot their primaries, and prevents dictor pilots from bubbling your own fleet along with the bad guys.

The drake does this kinda combat really well, and also is very newbie friendly. Loads of people can fly drakes, and even without a full t2 fit its effective, unlike as it used to be where if you couldn't field a full t2 sniper bs, you weren't coming. That means that alliances can get every single possible pilot on the field in a DPS ship and dominating the numbers game.

It won't last too much longer. Soon enough there will be counters to the drake fleet. For now its a great fleet, for the reasons I've outlined. It should have its day in the sun, and in a years times we won't even remember.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:13:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Turix
As per Eve-Kill Top 20:

Rank    Ships    Kills
1 Drake 219593
2 Hurricane 76475
3 Zealot 54785
4 Vagabond 31903
5 Megathron 29854
6 Harbinger 27691
7 Tempest 26191
8 Abaddon 22355
9 Dramiel 21279
10 Sabre 20926
11 Armageddon 20818
12 Hound 18974
13 Rapier 18226
14 Scimitar 18010
15 Muninn 17928
16 Manticore 17365
17 Apocalypse 16341
18 Cynabal 12365
19 Loki 10948
20 Myrmidon 10796


Yeah, FOTM alright :x


Laughing 2 Caldari ships... 1 on top of the list, the other near the bottom Laughing

The only thing this list shows is how FUBAR for PVP Caldari ships are that one is chosen above all others.


Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.16 00:46:00 - [79]
 

Quote:
2 Caldari ships... 1 on top of the list, the other near the bottom


And it's worth mentioning that ship is a stealth bomber, a ship class where the racial variations are miniscule to non existant. It could just as easily have been the hound there, so it's worth discounting that one.

Having said that, those statistics are flawed in a significant way: namely the fact they don't take the context of those kills into account.
Think about it, how many carebears have you seen bringing their PVE Drakes out to PVP with?
Sure, there are a whole lot of Drakes on killmails, but if you were to filter out the number which contributed next to nothing to the fight, or who had 0 damage due to flight time, that number would shrink significantly.

People who think the Drake needs a nerf need to stfu. I repeat: why is it ok for Minmatar to have hands down the best guns in the game, but not for Caldari to have debatably the best BC?

Do we need to nerf the Ishkur/Jaguar for being the best AFs? Do we need to nerf the Damnation for being the best armour command ship?

If you really think something is wrong with the Drake, you may want to take a look at the other cases where one race has a very clear advantage over the rest and add those to the nerf list as well.

I'll also repeat this: cry the **** more.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2010.10.16 02:04:00 - [80]
 

Not supported. Caldari need one ship that is good.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.16 05:00:00 - [81]
 

Caldari need more than one ship that is good not one ship that is the be all to end all. The drake was worthless in the days of nano as missiles couldn't even touch their intended targets but those days are gone. And missiles are the only weapon without an effective specific counter, they can even use fof missiles to reduce the effect of ECM and damps which would completely shutdown a turret ship in the same situation. While defender missiles and smartbombs work they take tremendous skill to use and are largely ineffective in stopping missiles.

With the removal of speeds capable of out running missiles and without some unique way to counter missiles that is actually as effective as tracking disruption is on turrets, the drake will continue to excel. Unfortunately if measure are taken to correct this with missiles on the drake, it will hurt ships. In general Caldari ships need a revamp, that would allow changes to be made to missiles without ruining them.

Autocannons are currently messed up because of the fact the different tiers of ammunition do not modify fall-off and the guns were given enough fall-off to make up range on the super powered scorch crystals. This of coarse broke blasters and gave AC's a crippling edge over pulse laser at shorter range.

Artillery was a change that did little to alter its balance with the other weapons.

Why I say this because people seem to fail to look at the whole picture of balance, they say boo my ship sucks or that one is overpowered. Often those people are right but their reasoning is wrong, because they are only looking at things from one side. For PvP the caldari are weak only having a handful of specialist ships that really excel at their very specific role ecm. They also have the versatile and probably somewhat overpowered drake. Most of the caldari none specialist ships are ho-hum and a few are quite poor.

Gallente are probably currently the second weakest with but they the ships are in general solid with a few weak ones such as the deimos and other blaster boats, but a fix to blaster will solve most of those problems.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.16 05:17:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: darius mclever on 16/10/2010 05:18:59
kalia: you are aware that explosion velocity of all missiles got reduced during the speed nerf? and explosion velocity is what matters for the dmg taken. i would even call it a bug that you could outrun missile speed in the past.

while you cant outrun the missile speed easily anymore, you can still negate tons of dmg because of the explosion velocity. and that is pretty balanced to turret boats.

and it is funny how many people ignore post 26 in the discussion. :)

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.16 06:47:00 - [83]
 

I understand explosion velocity, and also understand tracking and in that sense missiles and turrets are surprisingly well balanced especially since the missiles still hit for damage even if it becomes minuscule where a turret once a certain traversal is reached ceases to damage at all. That is balanced. And yes a missile ship also has the advantage of being able to orbit and opponent at any transversal velocity it likes without losing DPS. Missiles are also useful from 0m to maximium range. Their versatility is their balance.

What is not balanced is a turret ship can have its turrets disrupted so they can no longer hit the target, or its sensors damped so it doesn't have the targeting range to get a lock, or it can be jammed. Each of these circumstances means the turret ship is only dealing damage with its drones.

Missiles on the other hand cannot have their tracking disrupted, they can fire FoF missiles when they are jammed and damped and while this may not seem like much even picking off the enemies drones more than a turret ship can do under similar circumstances. Yes there is a specific counter to missiles the defender missile but sadly they remain ineffective as they are difficult to time and provide poor results on top of that. Smartbombs which again can counter missiles are also difficult to time and also dangerous to use in a fleet.

If defender missiles actually worked effectively you would see a fleet of turret sniper BC's fitted with them face of with a drake gang and have a good chance of wining. Either they kite close range turret ships or damp and disrupt long range turret ships out of the fight until they can close range. Long range turret ships do not have space for ewar as they must use valuable mid slots for tracking computers and sensor boosters.

Bishop120
Caldari
Steel Fleet
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.10.16 07:17:00 - [84]
 

Drakes are a great FLEET ship. That is what they are and what they provide. One on one they can be be beat by anyone who has skills at using their own battlecruiser. But again that is the same with everything in this game.. max skills and skill at using your ships mean more than anything. The reason they have become so popular is the standard fleet size/composition nowaday has mooved to battlecruiser size. Battlecruisers can hit most every size ship, they are large enough to not insta pop, and they dont take 5 forevers to align and warp to gates like battleships do.

And such as other people say.. you can make the argument about any other ship which dominates in its class size.. think about how Rifters dominate T1 frigates.. Dramiel rules the frigate size in general.. the Thanatos is the best carrier... the way Domis can be used in mass groups... Anyways.. there is no problem with any one of these items.. the Drake due to the popularity of battlecruiser fleets just appears to have some kind of dominance.. it really doesnt.. its just popular flavor of the day.

Zilberfrid
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:01:00 - [85]
 

Drakes are tier 2 BC's, they are all out of line.

My approach:

Drop the tier system

Make Frigs as good as their top-tier variant, make cruisers as good as their top-tier variant, make BC's as good as their tier 1 variant, BS seem balanced already.

Voila, a lot more interesting ships in the game.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.16 11:49:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: ViolenTUK
The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years. The only nerf I remember that was aimed at the drake was in 2007 I believe when the shield recharge time was increased to reduce its passive tank. What we are seeing is most of the races ships taking nerf after nerf and in comparison drakes now appear to have advantages. I am not addressing the drake issue directly itís just that some of you may have forgotten just how much CCP have systematically run around crippling all of our ships. We donít need CCP to cripple another one of Eve ships.


I cant remember any BC nerf since the drake nerf. can you point me to some i might have forgotten?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.16 12:37:00 - [87]
 

In no particular chronological order:
Hurricane - Projectile buff
Harbinger - Laser buff
Myrmidon - Drone bandwidth nerf? I didn't play far back enough to see what this was like before they reworked the drone system but I hear it was hilariously OP. No particular buff to speak of, although I suppose the projectile buff could apply as the AC Myrm is pretty good.

So, what nerfs exactly?

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.10.16 12:41:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
In no particular chronological order:
Hurricane - Projectile buff
Harbinger - Laser buff
Myrmidon - Drone bandwidth nerf? I didn't play far back enough to see what this was like before they reworked the drone system but I hear it was hilariously OP. No particular buff to speak of, although I suppose the projectile buff could apply as the AC Myrm is pretty good.

So, what nerfs exactly?


buffing other ships isnt exactly a nerf for the others. as it might just balance out the buffed ships compared to the others.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2010.10.16 13:42:00 - [89]
 

Oh I wasn't saying there was any nerfing going on, indirect or otherwise, just that the point about "The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years." is ****ing stupid.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.10.16 14:29:00 - [90]
 

Sooo... there actually is a viable Caldari PvP ship?
Great!
That means all the 'Caldari are bad for PvP!' complainers can finally stfu. Very Happy

So we can move along, right? I mean, everything is ok and fine? Nothing to see here?


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