open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Feedback on Menu Changes [Updated after new Sisi build]
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5

Author Topic

CCP karkur

Posted - 2010.10.01 14:29:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: CCP karkur on 13/10/2010 19:12:20
Edited by: CCP karkur on 01/10/2010 14:43:24
Hello all,

As some of you might have noticed on Sisi, the order of the menu options has changed. This was done to organize the options, and move options that can have serious consequences and options that change stuff out of the way so you don't click them by accident.
The grouping was done with the help of the members of the CSM, and we are still tweaking the groups and the order of the items. So if you have any feedback on it please post it here Smile
(it would also be good if you also explain why)




(October 13):I added a new post later in this thread:
Hello again... as I said in my first post we are still tweaking the menu options and now we have a new build on Sisi where some of the options have been moved around.
I guess most of you will be happy to see that we moved "warp to" and other individual space action to the top of the menu list (and also "buy this").
A few other groups have also been created and options moved around, so please take a look and give us feedback on what you see so we can keep addressing your concerns Very Happy

H3llHound
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.10.01 14:43:00 - [2]
 

I would like the 'Buy Item' option to be moved to its original place again, the top option. You cant really accidentally buy items since theres another window popping up before you actually might make a dumb decision. Show Info is not as important as buying the item in the market window.

Murderers Apprentice
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2010.10.01 14:47:00 - [3]
 

also pls move warp to back to top Very Happy

Pipecock Jackxon
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.01 15:06:00 - [4]
 

oh and put the "reset camera" back please? xD its really annoying (and slow) to click it where its now.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.01 15:08:00 - [5]
 

Some more information that might be helpful in this discussion:

CCP karkur came up with a really interesting solution to some of the menu layout problems with the current contextual menus. This wasn't originally planned for the Winter expansion, but she managed to find the time to implement the hack.

Basically, the way it works (correct me if I'm wrong here, karkur) is that you can think of the original menu as a set of "groups" of items contributed by various parts of the UI, and the amount of control over how these are assembled into the final menu is limited.

If you consider the final (old-style) menu to be a single "block" of items, then what CCP karkur's hack does is define new blocks that can be located above or below the original menu block, and each possible menu item can be assigned to one of these new blocks.

Examples of these new blocks include "destructive, but reversible" (ie: repackage) and "destructive, nonreversible" (ie: trash), which are now located at the bottom of the menus. IIRC there's also "Will ruin your day" and "Will cause ragequit" blocks as well.

Note to CCP karkur - can you please add a list of the current blocks and their ordering in the first post?

When CCP karkur approached the CSM about this idea (which was a skunk-works project of hers, btw, above and beyond the call of duty), we helped out in two ways: first, we threatened to unleash Vuk Lau and his famous lube on her immediate superiors if this didn't get done, and second, we helped with a rough categorization of the new menu blocks and their contents.

What you now see on SiSi is that first draft, and CCP karkur needs your help to tweak it, both fixing which blocks menu items go into, and perhaps reordering the blocks themselves.

Rixiu
The Inuits
Posted - 2010.10.01 16:06:00 - [6]
 

This is fine and all, good that you ask for input from us instead of just going ahead and implement it on tq and then ignore the feedback...

This thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1392425&sid=787565266

The "navigation-buttons" should stay as they are (http://piclair.com/data/87fy9.jpg), they are easy to reach and sorted great. Some of the other drop down menus do need a redo though, especially when docked and it's good that this finally heappens :) Good luck in getting it right Exclamation


Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.10.01 16:15:00 - [7]
 

What about positioning these "blocks" on the left AND the right-hand side of the mouse? For instance, upper-left is information, upper-right is navigation (orbit, dock, etc), lower-right is system stuff like all the planets, etc, and lower-left is region-specific items.

Or, enable the left & right-side panels, but give us a way to customize a 3rd & 4th panel with selections we might want.

Just a thought :)

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.10.01 16:20:00 - [8]
 

Quote:
I would like the 'Buy Item' option to be moved to its original place again, the top option. You cant really accidentally buy items since theres another window popping up before you actually might make a dumb decision.


Quote:
also pls move warp to back to top


I agree. As far as I can see, everything else is great, but those Warp To and Buy must really be at the top as they are by VERY far the most used options.

Noesis Dream
Posted - 2010.10.01 16:20:00 - [9]
 

Hello

The "warp options" and "buy this" should remain AS IS.
For planets: lower "view in planet mode", perhaps up moons.
Where has the approach button gone too?
Ship: Maybe lower eject and self destruct.

Thanks

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.01 16:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: CCP karkur
As some of you might have noticed on Sisi, the order of the menu options has changed. This was done to organize the options, and move options that can have serious consequences and options that change stuff out of the way so you don't click them by accident.
The grouping was done with the help of the members of the CSM, and we are still tweaking the groups and the order of the items. So if you have any feedback on it please post it here Smile
(it would also be good if you also explain why)


Do you want me to teach you how to properly form a context menus in application?
Ok, here is is, three simple steps:

1. Form one big list of all context menu items ever imaginable in a whole application, each one in it's own group.
2. Sort groups and items in groups in a sensible way.
3. In a context, where menu growing bigger than 10-12 items, use submenus instead of placing groups directly into menu.

Do you need more thorough explanation?
Or do you want some good examples of proper menu ordering?

P.S.
Remove "Align to", "Approach" is enough and the same by meaning. Even if server action is different, client don't need to know that, even it is, it dones not need to be exposed to player that using cleint.

P.P.S.
"Show info" to the bottom. It should be quite obvious for anyone.

Cryten Jones
Gallente
Advantage Inc
The Matari Consortium
Posted - 2010.10.01 17:08:00 - [11]
 

How about you guys make the blocks and then let us change the order of these blocks in menus using the esc menu.

-CJ

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.01 17:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
1. Form one big list of all context menu items ever imaginable in a whole application, each one in it's own group.
2. Sort groups and items in groups in a sensible way.

This is, more or less, exactly what is being attempted here. There are some issues with the way the original menu implementation was done that make some changes difficult.

Quote:
3. In a context, where menu growing bigger than 10-12 items, use submenus instead of placing groups directly into menu.

From a human-factors perspective, submenus are a disaster that needs to avoided whenever possible. If you don't believe me, try warping to 70km off the 5th moon of the 4th planet.

Quote:
"Show info" to the bottom. It should be quite obvious for anyone.

Maybe yes, maybe no. The problem with menu orderings is that they are juggling various design concerns that can sometimes conflict, such as:

* Keep the commonly used items towards the top of the menu, but...

* Keep the dangerous items at the bottom, away from the common items.

* Group related items together, but...

* Separate related but easily confusable items (ie: jump to.../bridge to...)

So putting Show Info at the bottom of the menu, next to items like Trash it... might not be such a good idea. While it is true that the destructive items are protected by confirmation dialog boxes, with hundreds of thousands of players, putting Show Info right under them means that probably once a day, someone is going to brainfart, mis-select trash, confirm the dialog on autopilot and throw away something of value.

This is not to say that Show Info should not be at the bottom, just that is not as simple of a decision than it might at first appear -- which is why CCP karkur needs specific feedback.

Noesis Dream
Posted - 2010.10.01 17:43:00 - [13]
 

There is always room for improvement.
But the most used options in the menu have been moved too a more inconvenient place.
Dont tell me these changes as on sisi right now are an actual product of a csm / dev debate.
They are random right?
Right???

d3vo
Posted - 2010.10.01 19:43:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: d3vo on 01/10/2010 19:45:32
Here is one thing that I found quite annoying and pointless. When right clicking a 'sell order', the first thing on the menu that comes up is "info", then "location", AND THEN "buy this". Previously, "buy this" was on top which was and is much more convenient than being on the bottom. Also, there is absolutely no reason to have "info" in that tab. Right above the market data is the name of the item with the (i) icon for info so there it's pointless to have the "show info" come up every time you right click on any of the orders.

Edit: I didn't realize this was already mentioned...i r 2 lazy 2 read Wink

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.01 20:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Noesis Dream
There is always room for improvement.
But the most used options in the menu have been moved too a more inconvenient place.
Dont tell me these changes as on sisi right now are an actual product of a csm / dev debate.
They are random right?
Right???


As previously stated, the menu generation interactions can be quite complex, and this is a first draft, both of the grouping of items into blocks, and of the relative ordering of those blocks.

It would be far more helpful if you (and others) would provide specific examples of layouts you think are non-optimal.

Icanti
Posted - 2010.10.01 20:14:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Icanti on 01/10/2010 20:14:51
If the warp to and warp to at distance are not put back to where they were, the amount of whining on the forums after this patch will pale in comparison if this change goes live....

Those 2 are used far to often to be meddled with.....

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.01 20:58:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Tonto Auri
1. Form one big list of all context menu items ever imaginable in a whole application, each one in it's own group.
2. Sort groups and items in groups in a sensible way.

This is, more or less, exactly what is being attempted here. There are some issues with the way the original menu implementation was done that make some changes difficult.

Since they are already screwed it as much as possible, releasing unplayable client to live server, your statement about implementations is out of the discussion.
Consider there's just no any implementation right now. (Anyone who think otherwise didn't logged to TQ in last 24 hours)

Quote:
Quote:
3. In a context, where menu growing bigger than 10-12 items, use submenus instead of placing groups directly into menu.

From a human-factors perspective, submenus are a disaster that needs to avoided whenever possible. If you don't believe me, try warping to 70km off the 5th moon of the 4th planet.


The issue you describing isn't really contextual per se. It's more of an environmental.

Quote:
Quote:
"Show info" to the bottom. It should be quite obvious for anyone.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Yes without maybe. If you want consistent menu, that is.

Quote:
The problem with menu orderings is that they are juggling various design concerns that can sometimes conflict, such as:

* Keep the commonly used items towards the top of the menu, but...

* Keep the dangerous items at the bottom, away from the common items.


Fail thinking.

Quote:
* Group related items together, but...

No butt-*****ing.

Quote:
* Separate related but easily confusable items (ie: jump to.../bridge to...)

This should be resolved in a different place.

Quote:
So putting Show Info at the bottom of the menu, next to items like Trash it...

Nothing wrong with it. "Trash..." has distinct non-avoidable confirmation dialog. I'm more annoyed by ShowInfo being on top inside hangar. I'm using it like once a day, while trading. And never, when doing other stuff. And it always messing with my workflow.

Quote:
might not be such a good idea. While it is true that the destructive items are protected by confirmation dialog boxes, with hundreds of thousands of players, putting Show Info right under them means that probably once a day, someone is going to brainfart, mis-select trash, confirm the dialog on autopilot and throw away something of value.

This happens now and will happen from time to time in foreseeable future. Sadly, war didn't cleared all idiots.

Quote:
This is not to say that Show Info should not be at the bottom, just that is not as simple of a decision than it might at first appear -- which is why CCP karkur needs specific feedback.


My specific feedback is... as specific as possible. When I want to warp fleet, now I need to find "warp fleet" in between tons of fleet-unrelated menu items. Would so much like to see this menu in a way of


------
Fleet broadcasts
------
Fleet navigation
------
Approach
Orbit
Keep at range
Warp to at <preset distance>
Warp to at... >
------
The rest.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.10.01 23:15:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Camios on 01/10/2010 23:17:33
The best thing would be to be able to navigate through menus/submenus pressing key combinations. For example,
  • rightclick on a distant object:
    1. the usual menu appears.
    2. To select warp to, press W: the sub menu of warp distances opens
    3. Press 5 for warp at 50km
That is, Rclick on object - W - 5 = warp at 50km.
  • Rightclick on empty space (or press M outside chat):
    1. The usual menu appears

    2. To select Asteroid Belts, press A: a new submenu for planets opens

    3. To select the Nth planet , type N (in numbers)- enter : a new submenu for the belts of that planet opens

    4. To select asteroid belt M, type M (in numbers) - enter: a submenu for that belt opens.

    5. to select warp, press W: the warp manu opens

    6. to warp to that belt within 10km, press 1.
So, if you want to warp planet 10 asteroid belt 4 at 10km, just press M - A- 10 enter- 4 w 1.
It's just like typing

ma10
4
w7

In my opinion it is far faster and easy to have such shortcuts to navigate submenus, they're the standard for every productivity application. Some more examples:
  • Align to planet 15 mooon 34
    mp15
    m34
    a

  • Warp to fleet member within 30km:
    (right click member) fw3

  • Orbit target at default distance:
    (right click target) oo (or just s + left click target)

  • Orbit target at 500m:
    (right click target) o1

  • Orbit target at 7500m:
    (right click target) o4

  • [*] Set default orbit distance to 19348m:
    (right click target) os19348 (enter)
    [*] Warp at default distance on my second bookmark:
    mm2ww


Of course, it should be possible to navigate through submenus with left right up down arrows.


Zarak1 Kenpach1
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2010.10.02 00:51:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1 on 02/10/2010 01:16:38
I just cant believe the CSM recommended these changes. I know they wanted to do something about context menus for awhile. But this? Is the majority of CSM really that big of bears that the menus are optimized for ship spinning in a station?

This layout is pure madness I tell you!

Would one of you CSM folk please walk me and the rest of us through your logic on this layout???

Please use the example below for the first 3 options please please please please pretty please.

1)approach/warp to 0
2)warp at range/orbit
3)keep at range/align

If you all want to screw up the rest of the context menu feel free to do so but, moving nav options to the middle is extremely FUBAR in this veterans opinion. Exclamation

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 03:04:00 - [20]
 

Context menu for ships in space under pilot sub menu needs to have "show info" for pilot information. Make sure to add a "show info" for pilot information for every context menu that has a pilot attached to it.

Redundancy never hurt anyone!

Please and Thank You!
Zen

END3R 101
Amarr
Diabolus Ex Machina
Posted - 2010.10.02 04:50:00 - [21]
 

I've been playing for too long to ever get used to a new system. I'm set in my ways if you will. If you leave it like this, or any other way that isn't the perfectly reasonable layout that hundreds of thousands of us have muddled along with for years and years, i will never recover. You may aswell pod me now since i'll never win a fight again.
Never mind that, I am admittedly not a very patient person, as a result, i will never ever be able to stay logged in long enough to finish buying a new ship when you add the frustration of accidentally info-ing everything i try to buy instead of bloody buying it. I will probably experience a minor rage related embolism and log off, barely fitted in jita most times. Please please leave it like it is. There's nothing wrong with it. Pretty please.

I also don't like the forums. Logging in here to complain at you took alot of will power on my part. Consider that added weight to my argument that i care so much. Mad

Luthair StoneDog
Gallente
Diabolus Ex Machina
The Amazing Onjoi and his Educated Rodents
Posted - 2010.10.02 04:51:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Luthair StoneDog on 02/10/2010 04:56:49
I cannot count the number of times on sisi I have attempted to buy something from the market, and hit show info instead.

If I want to show info on a market item, I actually click the blue info button. Please, please put buy at the top. We know it's there, it is very hard to hit it by mistake.

I believe that warp to is an option that in many cases is an every half second counts menu selection.

If you put it at the bottom of the list it makes it much harder to locate and slows our reactions down.

When I right click, I feel that I should have to move the mouse only minimally to get the warp to option.

The other thing is that we are simply USED to the way it was. It's ingrained and very difficult to break out of.

*edit* But please make the trash it button as far from assemble ship as is physically possible.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2010.10.02 09:20:00 - [23]
 

I'm going to be blunt:

Trebor, you're an idiot.




The menu does not need to be changed. If anything, the menus in Eve are the one thing that should never be changed, as players who use them realize that if you click that button, you had to press a button prior to that to activate a context menu. I say, if you think a button is dangerous then get the hell out of my game.

CCP karkur

Posted - 2010.10.02 11:40:00 - [24]
 

Thank you all for your feedback.

Like I said in my first post, we are still tweaking the groups, and need your feedback to help with that.

It's not an easy task to divide a few hundred options into groups. In some cases a certain position for an option is a good idea in theory, but when you see it in action it just doesn't work. That's why we wanted to get this out to you now (this is also the first time the CSM is seeing this in action and they are also making suggestions on moving stuff).

There is no need to be rude and call people idiots, that does not help anyone.

Trebor has asked me to post the groups, so here they are:

1. Show info group
-------------------
2. Options with subentries
-------------------
3. Navigation group1
4. Navigation group2
-------------------
5. "Target" group
-------------------
6. characters/contacts group
7. characters group
-------------------
8. OLD MENU
-------------------
9. Trade group
-------------------
10. Containers/holds group
-------------------
11. Corp group
-------------------
12. Changing stuff group
-------------------
13. Selection group
-------------------
14. “stuff I don’t want to click by accident” group
-------------------
15. “stuff I REALLY don’t want to click by accident” group

Examples:
2.
Characters
Planets
Pilot

3.
orbit
align to
look at

4.
add waypoint
remove location

5.
lock target
assume control
engage target

6.
add contact
block
remove label


7.
form fleet with

8.
the rest that has not been assigned groups (includes all separators that have been added in the old menu)

9.
buy this
trade
add to market quickbar

10. open cargo
open fuel bay
open drone bay
Access fuel bay

11. edit member
award decoration

12. Cancel Anchoring
Cancel repair
Return And Orbit
leave channel
set new password
Delegate Control

13.
copy all
cut
sort by
toggle timestamp


14.
Abandon all nearby containers
Abandon Wreck
jettison
jump to member
warp fleet
warp to within X

15.
Complete Termination
expel member
quit corp
trash
trash it

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.10.02 16:56:00 - [25]
 

I'm really suprised that the warp/jump commands aren't in a navigation group

Here's my first take on the order.


"high priority,every second counts" type of actions.
14. “stuff I don’t want to click by accident” group (only because of warp)
-------------------
3. Navigation group1
4. Navigation group2
-------------------
5. "Target" group
-------------------

next are the commonly used commands
10. Containers/holds group
-------------------
9. Trade group
-------------------
13. Selection group
-------------------
12. Changing stuff group
-------------------
1. Show info group
-------------------


now for character stuff
6. characters/contacts group
7. characters group
-------------------
11. Corp group
-------------------

now the dangerous stuff
<14. “stuff I don’t want to click by accident” group > if it didn't include warp
-------------------
15. “stuff I REALLY don’t want to click by accident” group



Two sections that I'm not sure about:

2. Options with subentries
-------------------
8. OLD MENU

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.10.02 17:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
I'm really suprised that the warp/jump commands aren't in a navigation group

I think the warp to placement may just be a mistake, thought there may be an argument that "warp fleet" is sufficiently 'dangerous' that you'd want to separate it.

The argument for 'jump' being dangerous is that it's not easy to recover from (as opposed to warp to, which you could cancel while aligning, or just warp back), so the cost of a misclick is enough that you'd want to separate it a bit (especially from bridge to).

The ordering I came up with this morning before reading your posting was this:


3. Navigation group1 (+ warp to)
4. Navigation group2
-------------------
5. "Target" group
-------------------
2. Options with subentries (planets, gates, stations, for example)
-------------------
6. characters/contacts group
7. characters group
-------------------
1. Show info group (might go into trade, or just below old menu, or even between 12 and 13?)
-------------------
8. OLD MENU (this is basically anything that isn't moved, and may often be empty IIRC)
-------------------
9. Trade group
-------------------
10. Containers/holds group
-------------------
11. Corp group
-------------------
12. Changing stuff group
-------------------
13. Selection group
-------------------
14. “stuff I don’t want to click by accident” group
-------------------
15. “stuff I REALLY don’t want to click by accident” group

Once again, the thing to keep in mind is that this first SiSi release is just a proof-of-concept (ie: that the shuffling works).

Cor Aidan
Shore Leave
Posted - 2010.10.03 00:09:00 - [27]
 

The only problem I see with this is many people are going to be mis-clicking due to muscle memory. Muscle memory is *much* stronger than reading what the words say.

I suggest that you give people the option to select either "old" menu order or the "new" menu order, and leave the "old" order as the default.

If this is not the case, there will be numerous complaints due to muscle-memory-induced errors and ship-loss.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.10.03 00:11:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 03/10/2010 00:12:19
"Show info"
1. Should be accessible.
2. Should not be hitting hands on every occasion.
The only position that satisfy both requirements is on the bottom of the menu. (Right now it's on both sides, depends on where you call menu - very frustrating)

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.10.03 06:57:00 - [29]
 

Easier solution is to take image of the current layout on TQ and use your mad photoshop/paint skills to show the rest of us how you would like to have your stuff ordered.
We also have a proposal like this made somewhere in the antiquity if you CSM-people would care to check what is actually being posted as proposals for you. Rolling Eyes

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.03 10:43:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
From a human-factors perspective, submenus are a disaster that needs to avoided whenever possible. If you don't believe me, try warping to 70km off the 5th moon of the 4th planet.


QFT


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only