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blankseplocked Enemy Stealth Bombers in a mining system. A becomming curse.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:15:00 - [91]

Originally by: Exlegion
The problem with your argument is that it offers no content at all. It's like telling your 5-year-old there is no monster behind the closet door and he need not to worry. Unless there is a monster, in which case he needs to worry. It offers absolutely nothing. In the case of the AFK cloaker you cannot tell wether he's AFK or not and that is the problem. Telling someone not to worry about an AFK player is no advice at all because you simply don't know if he's AFK or not.

Except that they're not complaining about what you say they're complaining, and I'm not telling them what you imply that I'm saying.

Their chief complaint is that while AFK, the enemy poses a threat.
Which it obviously doesn't. He only poses a threat while NOT AFK.

They claim they wouldn't really mind if the enemy was NOT AFK.
Of course, when some measures are put in place to make it impossible to stay cloaked while AFK, they'll start complaining instead that there are AFK macro cloakers in their system.
And so on and so forth with the chain of bullcrap.

So the complaint is not really about AFK cloakers, but the inability to tell if somebody is AFK or not in your system.
And I continue to argue that whoever is complaining about THAT is at best a friggin' spoiled brat, and they should instead thank whatever gods they believe in CCP hasn't bothered upgrading the scanning system so that they can finally remove local already, or just pulled it out altogether to make it act like in w-space.

The question that comes to mind is where is the risk to the cloaker(s)? I see the danger and risks to the miner but the cloaker has none. Is this really in the spirit of Eve? I see that the cloaker has a choice in attacking or not. But that is not a risk. It's another "perk" to being cloaked. No doubt this will turn into an argument of local versus no local. However, CCP has made it crystal clear that when local eventually goes it will be replaced by tool(s) that will aid in the form that local currently does. Of course, it will require skills. But whether these miners posess the necessary skills at the moment is irrelevant.

The whole argument is irrelevant, because it is NOT what the OP is complaining about.
I'll be the first to admit though that the cloaking mechanics could use a bit of nerfing as far as off-grid scanning goes, but that's a completely different story.
Also, BTW, occasionally, NPCs will spawn near a cloaked ship, decloaking it and attacking it, even if in the middle of nowhere. AFK cloaking actually IS dangerous too.

You also compare WH space with known space and fail to mention that the two are just different. WH space is better "buffered" or protected by gates. Its accessibility is limited, while known space isn't. Entering a wormhole space doesn't necessarily give the cloaker the advantage of knowing for certain that someone is there. While in known space the residents are known beyond doubt to live there. The point is when local goes I don't think it will be what you think it will be.

The "remove local now" thing is the most drastic possible hardline approach, thanks to the "we're not changing anything major in what already exists for a year and a half" implications debacle and the "enough with this junk already, just do it, and you can add the whistles later after excrement hits the propeller".

The SANE approach would be to only remove local (either put it in delayed mode or change it forcefully to constellation chat, or both) after completely revamping the directional scanner and the probe scanning mechanics first.
Maybe even add some other deployables into the mix, with the final result of anybody being able (eventually) to get not just similar, but much more detailed information compared to what the "old local" gave you... but at the cost of EFFORT (and optionally even assets), not completely free like now.

Doctor Mustaka
Bite me inc.
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:15:00 - [92]

I think the argument people use to make cloakers somehow detectable after a period of time just rubbish. There are so many tactics that covops team employ that requires a long cloak and sometimes being in enemy space for weeks on end.

1. Watching Jump bridge traffic.
2. Killing haulers to interupt assets stockpiling.
3. Gathering intel on POS location and composition.
4. Bookmarking gates, pos locations, stations.
5. Market ninjaing the enemy.

All of these are valid tactics that may mean I am in a system cloaked for a long time. You may think I am AFK but I am not. I may chose not to engage you because I do not want to risk my ship because I have been tasked with completing something more important.

Like most other posters on these threads I will say to you there are hundreds of ways to counter a cloaked ship in your not meant to be safe 0.0 system. The funniest is a decent fit battle hulk solo mining bait setup. Even a best skilled bomber pilot cannot kill a hulk with 1 bomb alone. That means he has to engage with torps. Some decent drones and a point and he will be dead. Dont kill his pod though. Makes him go back slow boat. Makes it less likely he will come back your way. Or even better scram and web his pod and keep him there until next downtime.

If your not willing to sacrifice a few mining lasers on your ten accounts to easily protect yourself you well and truly should pack up and head to HS. Or your corp should kick your ass out as you will be giving them a bad name.

Marshall West
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:25:00 - [93]

sitting at a gate for hours watching haulers is fine doesnt mean you couldnt warp out every so often and reactivate the cloak and come back if your not afk you dont havea problem :). stop making silly excuses for you to have perma cloak. a good covert ops pilot would be at a safe spot off the gate anyway. but something needs balancing eve is about risk v reward and i can tell you very little risk to bomber pilot afking in a 0.0 system hunting miners or ratters. Covert ops bombbers or frigs can light cynos remeber that and as i said motherships are becoming more common and so are carriers which means people dont bat an i lid of hot dropping a cap on a hulk these days and its going to get worse until you just have mothership fights no one mining no one building your ships no minerals for you to pvp with and no one can make isk to buy pvp ships. Covert ops have never been tweaked but i think its time they were looked at. just as vegabonds and hacs were when they could do super stupid speeds nanoed and no one could kill them. people complained about them nerfing them but it made the game better :)

Jodi Goulsti
No Salvation
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:33:00 - [94]

Has it already been a month since we've had a five page discourse on cloaking? Where does the time go?

Doctor Mustaka
Bite me inc.
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:36:00 - [95]


sitting at a gate for hours watching haulers is fine doesnt mean you couldnt warp out every so often and reactivate the cloak and come back if your not afk you dont havea problem

You obviously have never been tasked with getting BMs on a large gate or station camp. Sometimes it can take hours upon hours to get decent BMs for a counter fleet to come in and break it. This often requires moving slowly around the campers to get decent warpins to their warpins. If I have to warp off every few hours it just increases the chance that when I wrap back I will land on someone making a very dangerous job even more dangerous.

Propose a solution that does not require breaking needed and much used tactics. Oh wait we have already. HTFU and counter the cloaker. If youíre worried about hot drops why not hot drop back. If you cant counter hot drop back you donít deserve your space.

Cipher Jones
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:50:00 - [96]

So you want to make 5x as much as a hisec miner with the same relative amount of risk?

Greedy ass. Serves you right.

Posted - 2010.09.30 12:59:00 - [97]

Edited by: Dasola on 30/09/2010 13:00:31
Ok i think OP is complaining just for fun of it.

Cloaks are ok, theyre working as intended.

If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there?

0.0 is only as safe as you make it. Theres no other security measures for a reason: so player alliances can clam their piece of space and make best use of it.

GoGo Rens
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:00:00 - [98]

Edited by: GoGo Rens on 30/09/2010 13:10:02

Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks. I can copy with that. But having an idiot afk and cloaked in system evry day for hrs thats another thing to deal with. I cant change the situation a bit and ofc i cant change corps or Alliance because of this, every day. Propably u havent faced a situation like this yet cause if u had u should come with a better proposal

So you dont like somebody being afk. But you then say you have a 10 account mining fleet, so in theory unless you are using macros, 9 of those 10 accounts are afk at any one time as you can only be operating one character at a time.

So what you want is for one persons account not to be afk because it is effecting your 9 accounts that are afk.

Also how do you know if the guy you claim to be is afk , is actually afk? what proof do you have hes not at his pc watching his screen?

Or Maybe just like you he has 10 accounts 9 of them afk. and he just checks each account periodically to see whats going on?
Oh but wait maybe its not fair because errrr? what was it again?

Chesty McJubblies
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:21:00 - [99]

You said you have 10 accounts, why not just mine in 10 Apocs. Sure, you'd make less money to sell, but at least you'd get some income, as opposed to none. I doubt he'd attack that team.

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:39:00 - [100]

Originally by: Cailais
How about mining with escorts?


Wait you mean send a logi or two off with them along with a DPS wagon to deal with rats/interlopers? Come on man that's far to sensible!

Brian Ballsack
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:42:00 - [101]

Originally by: Dasola

If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there?

Summed up perfectly.

Alun Hughes
The Dark Horses.
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:49:00 - [102]

Originally by: Brian Ballsack
Originally by: Dasola

If your unable to defend your mining fleet, then maybe you should not be mining there?

Summed up perfectly.

This OP need to HTFU

Marshall West
Posted - 2010.09.30 13:58:00 - [103]

aint the orphanage high sec gankers who are to scared to go 0.0 anyway who you telling to HTFU :)

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:11:00 - [104]

Originally by: kasiloth
We did it but it didnt work. Cause the sb was afk. and u cannot have a response fleet watching at u all the day. It doesnt happen for a couple of hrs. It does for hrs every day.

How does it not work?

AFK Interceptor vs AFK SB? Sounds perfect to me! You have 10 accounts and can't sit ONE in a combat ship that might deter a stealth bomber?

Also, you realize that AFK ships can't gank you, right?

Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:15:00 - [105]

The problem is, they can't tell when the AFK cloaker is there or not. So they have to wait, for fear of a cyno opening up the moment they go to mine.

Still, i don't think fixing the cloak will change this. Couldn't people just fly an AFK unprobably Tengu and accomplish the same thing? What next, no unprobable ships allowed?

Then it will just be lokis that while probably, travel so fast that you can't ever catch them after you've probed them down, because they are already one grid over by the time you warp there.

The solution is to get a defensive fleet ready, bait the AFK cloaker into calling in friends, then killing the friends repeatedly until the AFK cloaker has no more support and gets in trouble for leading his temates into traps constantly.

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:19:00 - [106]

Originally by: Exlegion

Logical fallacy.

"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."

Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?

It is just you. These complaint threads are about AFK Cloaking. Cloaked ships being actively piloted are certainly part of the game and therefore a different matter. If you are 100% opposed to the existence of cloak modules it is a different argument.

The counter argument that you dismiss is that people who are actually AFK are not a threat regardless of whether they are cloaked or not.

The real basis of this debate is that people like the OP want to use Local as an always accurate warning system. No reds = Safe, Red = Unsafe, where the Reds are polite enough to leave after a few minutes so they can go back to mining.

Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:43:00 - [107]

Originally by: kasiloth
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare.

Yeah sure. but submarines are active not afk. And what they expect to kill when all ships are in pos? would u get out a ship of urs for mining when u see a red in local? So what is the point of submarine warfare?
Submarine warfare has a meaning when they attack and destroy. If they intend to make a fear out of their presense and to base on that by sitting invisible in depth then ccp must give us some better scanners.

This is not true. The largest impact of submarines in WW1 and WW2, was from the fear of submarines. Even if the German U-boats sank NO shipping, the convoy system reduced merchant shipping by 1/3 due to sitting in port while other ships load, traveling at the slowest ships speed, etc.
Eve models this reasonably well. If 1/3 of your miners switched to fast lock PVP ships and logistics, the solo Stealth bomber would be of much lesser concern.
For a historical comparisions, you are at the point where the U-boats are massacring merchant shipping, and the High Lord of the Admiralty is unwilling to implement the convoy system.

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:52:00 - [108]

Best solution: After being cloaked in a system for more than an hour, you no longer show up on local.

Now you don't need to panic about one cloaked player, as you can't see them anyway.

Alun Hughes
The Dark Horses.
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:55:00 - [109]

Originally by: Marshall West
aint the orphanage high sec gankers who are to scared to go 0.0 anyway who you telling to HTFU :)

confirmed we never go to 0.0

Mrs Destruction
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:57:00 - [110]

Are you kidding!!!!!!! I love doing this to all the Cyrillic macro-miners that jam up the server (you know who you are). In fact, I think we should devote an entire week to AFK cloaking macro systems all across New Eden. Unfortunately, this might result in half of Russia emo-raging and closing their accounts.

Lady Qe
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:57:00 - [111]

Typical cry-babies just like in any mmo.. they dont see a way around a situation.. they cry nerf or they'll quit.. seen it hundreds of times... if they'res no "instant" fix for them.. they claim the games unbalanced and unfair...

Oh also, Theres not only ONE system in the game... dont like the guy siting in your system.. Move...

Oh btw... i am Miner...

Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.09.30 14:58:00 - [112]

Solutions to SB:

1) Put Vulture in POS to boost fleet.
2) Logistics, One Logistic per 8 Hulks, makes hulks very hard to kill, even with multiple SB.
3) All hulks use warrior 2, not mining drones.
4) Hulks carry shield rep drones, that are always repping each other. This is more torp defense.
5) Mine in various locations.
6) Gate camp bottlenecks to your pvp area.
7) Form up PVP fleets and attack the bad guys home base. I often get in SB and harass pve'ers on slow PVP day. If battle develops, i run to it.
8) In one system {(Lvl 4) mining upgrades}, as soon as i show up in probe ship, a Super Carrier and Triage carrier show up. This is enough to discourage even black ops gangs.
9) If one of power allainces, set your titans in POS, boosting fleet. Hulks will be real hard to kill then.

The key is that you can stop afk'ers and light attackers, if you work at it, and are willing to have say 1/3 of fleet as pvp'ers. Also, null sec was not designed for 3 man gangs to prosper versus 1 man gang. Get larger fleets, get say 20 or 30 man pve fleets, and work as a team.
I have seen a ice mining corp routinely pop t1 and t2 solo frigates with Macks only. 30 warrior 1's and 30 shield rep drones are pop frigates real damn fast.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:09:00 - [113]

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 30/09/2010 15:10:28
If the takings from your mining ops are so poor that you can't afford to have one or two people protecting your fleet against this sort of disturbance, you should stop mining in 0.0 and consider moving to highsec.

Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:10:00 - [114]

Leave 0.0 kspace and go to 0.0 wspace. Gotta tell you, it's a lot less eventful than the first one.

*whispers: 0.0 kspace is bad for miners* Wink

Shirley Serious
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:12:00 - [115]

Enemy stealth bombers transform into a Curse? Shocked

Does Optimus Prime know about this?

Galactic Exploration and Missions
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:13:00 - [116]

How to fit tank Hulk against Bombs
* Using 2 Inv. Field II, Damage Control 2, Medium Extender.
* This ship will take 8 or 9 bombs from Max skill bomber Pilot. (11 Low Skill)
Ok, now this means it takes two bomber waves of 7 Each. So effectively Stealth Bombers Don't Matter. If you bring out HIC's, DIC's or Lachesis, you should kill one or more every trip. So now one or two bombers don't matter much, so you can ignore them. Your only concern is being hotdropped by capitals, titan bridge, or Black ops.
Each has a solution:
1) Mine in Cyno Jammed system to deal with capitals.
2) Black Ops, dont' mine withing close light-year range of enemy systems. This rewards bigger territory holding blocks, as game mechanic should. Also, if Black Ops gang is within range of your system, go Hunt them. It is sexy kill. Also, there are fewer active black ops in game than titans, so this is not currently a major issue.

In short, a heavily tanked hulk with combat drones, combined with 20 to 35% pvp ship in fleet will defeat all but the most determined opponents.

Razor Vision
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:13:00 - [117]

Edited by: Razor Vision on 30/09/2010 15:18:28
I think it's quite hilarious how a lot of so called "hardcore" pvp'rs replied with "quit the game".

You guys realize that the industrial sector is the backbone of the game? Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules.

This ignorance of some PVP'rs is simply astounding. If anything, I wish they were the ones to quit the game. Since they obvious do not understand at all the most simple mechanics of Eve Online.

It's perfectly reasonable that the OP posted a topic with his concerns that SB's are slightly OP when it comes to sabotaging mining OPs in 0.0. I live in 0.0 and I know what he's talking about. Any tom, ****, or sally with relatively no skills at all, could very easily stealth into any 0.0 system wish, find a safespot, then switch back to their "main" client. All the while, nobody is controlling the SB pilot, yet its effect is massive on the system it's in. Therefore, a mechanic in the game basically allows NOBODY to change an entire night of gaming for a lot of people. Zero skill, zero mouse or keyboard involvement, and so forth. So yeah, I don't think a timer is such a terrible idea. Infact, it's a great idea. Sure, I agree SB's are great tools for destroying mining ships and transport ships, etc <-- And it should STAY that way. But should they be effective AFK ships? No. No ship should have a special AFK power. Why? Because there's no player involvement. And CCP has made it clear that this game is entirely about player involvement. Players are the game. Without the players, it's simply empty space with rats patrolling astroids.

These so called hardcore PVP'rs need to stop attacking this guy. If you're so tough, MR. PVP, then why would you care if they put a 30-60min afk timer on your SB? How would that affect you if you're a hardcore cutthroat PVP podkiller? You'd be active right? So a timer wouldn't affect you? Oh no, wait, maybe you are one of those cowards who hide in a system w/o fighting anyone for hours on end? Guess you're not so hardcore after all, but merely a coward with a big mouth. So sad.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:21:00 - [118]

Originally by: Razor Vision
Without miners there would be no materials. Without materials there would be no way to build ships or modules.

You appear to be forgetting the existence of loot drops, hauler spawns and drone alloys (throughout the drone regions and in missions in highsec).

I would wager that these sources combined account for a greater share of mineral production than mining, and far more people contribute towards them (especially in the drone regions, where people effectively mine with their guns).

Selling Slave
Posted - 2010.09.30 15:21:00 - [119]

Marshall West has made several key points, an logical points.

The ability to cloak for hours on end is a wonderful thing. I am able to swoop into your system an lock you down thru fear an terror. I don't have any disabilities, my cloak is unbreakable as long as I don't get too close to anything. There are no risks for me whatsoever as a cloaky pilot, CCP has favored me with the ability to attack you on my terms, an there is NOTHING you can do about it. When I am ready to lay you to waste, I simply fly up an lite a cyno, an I open the doorway for hell to flood into your system. You say your system is cyno jammed? Too bad, I have a covert cyno, NOTHING stops that. Keep crying to have cloaks changed, it is falling on deaf ears. CCP have favored the cloaky pilot, I will use this game mechanic to its fullest.

I am going to come to your best mining system, an sit in it cloaked for days, until I have you second guessing yourself. When that happens, your going to think its safe, an your going to give up on being cautious, an thats when I have you, thats when you lose. Say all you want, there is no defense against me, thinking there is, thats just wishful thinking.

I too have multipule accounts, so, while I have your system locked down with one, I will be enjoying the game with another. Your misery an tears fuel my sadisticness, so, keep crying on the forums about changing cloaks, its never going to happen.

All you carebears are on this server for the pvpers amusement, get a clue. We don't need carebears, CCP could seed the market with the goods needed to keep the game running without you. Your carebear existance is tolerated because you pay.

::insert maniacil laugh here::

Where do I had the sarcasm an humor smilelys?

Its time to make a change, seriously.

Posted - 2010.09.30 15:22:00 - [120]

The problem I have with AFK-cloakers is that they're playing the game while not actively sitting behind their computer.
In what way is this different then macro-mining? They influence the game-play of others while not playing.

In my opinion, just forcefully logout accounts that are inactive for 30-60 minutes.

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