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blankseplocked Enemy Stealth Bombers in a mining system. A becomming curse.
 
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:12:00 - [61]
 

Unclocks in Rokh!

Jenny Hawk
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:14:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Br41n
So he is away from his keyboard for hours, what exactly is the problem?
he can't hurt you when he is AFK.

And well plenty of counters to bombers, just start protecting your miners

If someone is afk and cloaked - how would you know it's a SB at all?
And not just any cloak user? Would be a bit silly if you al dock for hours for an afk cloaked Jump Freighter! Shocked

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:16:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Jenny Hawk
for an afk cloaked Jump Freighter! Shocked

And which High slot are you gonna fit that cloak!

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:19:00 - [64]
 

The perfect sollution for this would be...





wait for it...













...to remove local!

Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:27:00 - [65]
 

I've been on both sides of the coin in this... Wanting to carebear but being bugged by semi-AFK cloak-***s, and then in turn being a semi-AFK cloak-*** in hostile space. It's a ****ty tactic, but everyone does it. I wouldn't have a huge problem with some sort of timeout or fuel usage or whatever for cloaks.

But, to the nubs that keep *****ing about wanting to remove local: Until CCP fixes up the totally f**ked scanning system (hitting 'scan' every 2 seconds is not a gameplay feature), the removal of local is not feasible.

Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
Ctrl Alt Elites
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:31:00 - [66]
 

I stopped playing about 2 years ago. Maybe a bit more. We had these exact same threads then, with much the warnings of impending doom and players quitting.

It's a couple years later, and you lot aren't going anywhere.

Don't try to say you are.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:48:00 - [67]
 

Quote:

What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game.


I'll have to disagree. There is nothing preventing mining. The only thing that is preventing >you< from mining is the perception that danger is lurking. Having lived in a WH for about 4 months now I >always< have this potential danger. There is no local from which I can glean intelligence. I have to dscan constantly, >always< being on the look out. I envy nullsec/lowsec's local being used as intelligence. However, I do not sympathize with your problem.

It sucks for you. Surely, it does. But there are hundreds if not thousands of players in WH's that cannot rely on local as you do. So, without much ado, HTFU!

MILK Monk
Knights of the Silver Dawn
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:58:00 - [68]
 

I have currently alt in your system, and he is active. Be careful!

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:03:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Xessej
Edited by: Xessej on 30/09/2010 04:06:49
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it.


That may have been true a long time ago but in the mordern world ASW has gotten quite sophisticated. This is a huge failing of Eve right now. A cloaker is too safe.



Avoid RL analogies, they bite back.

For example: remote recon with unmanned drones is the nor today, so why we don't have frigate size drones that will scout one or more gates ahead for us while we are safespotted/docked?
Maybe even with some decent strength missile to fire against targets of opportunity?

Very realistic, very bad for game reasons.

About the "probe in 15 minutes" suggestion in some other post, I have moved BS in 0.0 and in some instance I had to spend an hour or more to move away from the gate under cloak to clear a bubblecamp.

The campers weren't good enough to uncloack me with fast ships and drones swarm, so I was capable to avoid them.

With that idea implemented any ship that suffer from reduced speed when under cloak will die if it get caught in a bubblecamp.

Breaking one mechanic to fix another is not a good idea.


Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:21:00 - [70]
 

It seems like a reasonable expectation that people in a pvp game are actually at their computer.

I like the idea of the carrier decloak bomb that made the carrier fixed and warp inable ala a simple cyno field. It threatens the lazy afk approach while at the same time greatly enhancing higher quality pvp options by making a carrier present itself for attack . Lure a carrier out with a cloaker, black ops in on the carrier, and you've got a real kill.. not just a hulk or two.

If a mining corp can field enough cap ships to be able to counter a that hot-drop.. they've earned their saftey.... and man I want to be in some of those fights on either side....

you want to be able to mine in peace... risk a carrier... I don't see anything care-bear about that.. ads to pvp while correcting a sort of slimy dynamic

Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
Halinallen veroparatiisi
Inglorious Carebears
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:32:00 - [71]
 

Just get a droneboat there and tell him/her to drop sentry drones around you (not in the blast radius tho...) and have him with sensor boosters. Then when the SB unloacks...hope he get's a lock on him and poof he's paper. It won't stop the bomb though, but it will probably get the bomber. Use bait ships and thus it costs them more.

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:35:00 - [72]
 

Is this like Jepardy?

**EEEGGGGGHHHHHHH**
What are mobile warp disruptors

Seriously,
It's one red
You out number him
Bombers are paper thin

Bombers working as intended.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:44:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 30/09/2010 08:46:06
Originally by: kasiloth
Originally by: Nika Dekaia
So the enemy sends one military unit into a farming system to scare away the peasants so they can not make ISK for their lord. The peasanst are too weak to defend themselves and the lord does not care about them.

Sounds like a very economic use of military resources in my book.

Quote:
The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation
That's a filthy lie.


How supposed u will solve a situation like this? which way the defenders can truck down a cloaked afk enemy and kill him in their system ? do u have any suggestions instead of critisize it?



(1) Refit your hulk for tank. If you've been attacked by the stealth bomber already, you'll know which bomber is in, which in turn means you know what damage type he will do. Fit 2x shield hardeners of that type, and a damage control and an, I dunno, power diagnostic. Load up with 5x T2 light drones of the appropriate type to match his likely resist hole. (Acolytes if it's a Manticore, Warriors if it's a Nemesis, etc etc)

(2) Have a buddy (or an alt) lurk by your seemingly inviting Hulk in a bomber of his own. He will need a 24Km point, a web and ideally a target painter. Manticores are great for this btw because they have 4x mids and lots of CPU.

(3) As soon as the hostile bumber uncloaks and aggros on you, your buddy in the Manti uncloaks and tackles him. You start moving towards the bomber as best speed (this will mitigate torp damage quite a lot btw)

(4) Assign your drones to your buddy, laugh as the hostile pops in few seconds.

EDIT: The good thing about doing this is that after a while your buddy who flies the manticore doesn't even have to be active. He can be AFK and still deter. Ironic, no?

You can do the same thing with other ships, eg: a cloaked dictor is equally ideal. The main point is that you'll have to actually DO something other when whine on the forums.

andeira
Posted - 2010.09.30 08:56:00 - [74]
 

you take away my cloak? I come in with my unprobable T3 and I can still be AFK for hours on end just as easy (ok it is possible to find a unprobable T3 but takes a lot of time) so do you then want CCP to nerf T3's as well so you can mine

Chrysalis D'lilth
Posted - 2010.09.30 09:06:00 - [75]
 

Easy.

Remove local from 0.0

Your problem is solved - you'll never know if there is a SB in local or not and it won't matter if he's afk. Now you've got real submarine warfare. ugh

Alternatively - have some of your mining pilots fly escorts - you say you can't have people escort your ships all day, yet you can mine all day - why not?

Miss Connolly
Public Relations Corp
Posted - 2010.09.30 09:13:00 - [76]
 

"I'm scared of a single Stealth Bomber in my system, CCP nerf them!"

What an old and boring story.

Solution: grow a pair, get sov and cyno jam the system and have a few PVPers guard your mining carebears.

It's called 0.0

Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company
Posted - 2010.09.30 10:03:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: AFK Cloaker








empty quoting Laughing

HairySack Hangin
Posted - 2010.09.30 10:13:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Area and supply denial is the one of the original purposes of submarine warfare.


And the adaptation was to develop submarines to hunt submarines, and surface ships to hunt submarines, and airplanes to hunt submarines.

CCP has refused, for years, to implement anything to counter AFK cloaking. Not even a single gimped piece of crap ship that can scan them down. Nadda.

So, your use of real world analogies is FAIL.

pipvac
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2010.09.30 10:19:00 - [79]
 

I haven't read every single reply so bear with me.

First - cloaks are absolutely fine as is. I don't believe the cloaks or the ships that use them need to be changed at all.

Second - the submarine analogy is a very good one. The ability of a stealthy attack vessel to cut or hamper supply lines, whilst psychologically imposing fear on civilian and military traffic simply by knowing they are there. Spot on.

However, lets extend the analogy... To attack submarines typically had to aim their weapon by using their periscope or surfacing (de-cloaking) which left them vulnerable to attack. They could quickly dive to hide (re-cloak). Then those who were targetted developed two key tools:-

1) Depth charges - AoE weapons. If you knew roughly where the enemy was you could fire these weapons in the hope of causing damage or even sinking the target. They were notoriously inaccurate - but struck fear back into the hearts of submariners.

They became lethal to the submarines when...

2) Sonar - underwater scanning was introduced. Again, not perfect. It could offer bearing, speed and heading, which helped get the AoE weapons closer to their potential target. Something which caused such horrendous losses to the German wolf packs in the Atlantic, and North Sea towards the end of WW2.

3) Air/diesel/battery charge - submarines could not stay submerged forever. Even today with the use of nuclear subs, the limiting factor is not the fuel for the submarine, but food for the brave men who operate in them. In other words there was an effective time limit to the period they could remain stealthy for, before they had to resupply.

Perhaps this should be something CCP should consider going forward. The sandbox works because of the rock/paper/scissors nature of the tools they make available. Interpreting items 1, 2 and 3 would build on those tools.

Just my view on a well trodden path of opinion. Wink

Tub Chil
Posted - 2010.09.30 10:21:00 - [80]
 

What exactly is a problem here? 1 bomber can do NOTHING to you, just scratch your shields... (wait you have some buffer right?) your hulks have drone bays, don't they? so when he decloaks to launch bomb/torpedoes on you just kill it, easy as that. do you even know that bombers have around 1400 EHP?

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:03:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
If these big serious alliances you speak of want to disrupt a system they should have to put some actual effort into it.



I agree that having a red visible in local is zero effort disruption. That's why we should remove local in 0.0. If only there was another area in the game where delayed local is implemented, we could learn from them how to deal with this issue.

Welp, I've got nothing.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:12:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2010 05:32:50
Originally by: Exlegion
Logical fallacy.
"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."
Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?

There's no flaw in that argument, and it's not a fallacy.
He's either really AFK most of the time, in which case he can't hurt you at all, just scare you if you let him... or he's not AFK much and CAN therefore hurt you, but that's intended gameplay behaviour.

It becomes a case of how often does he attack, how many does he manage to kill, and what average daily destruction actual ISK losses are.
If those losses are usually noticeably smaller than the potentially lost income because everybody is scared pantsless to go out and do their thing... who's the stupid party in that scenario ?

The only reason you even KNOW a "potentially AFK cloaker" is there is because of "local", which was never intended to become *THE* intel tool, but CCP is feeling wishy-washy about wiping it out altogether since they don't have any reasonable effort-based replacement intel tool ready, and they lack the balls to just yank it out altogether thanks to people like the OP that already cream their pants in much less stressful situations.
Local in delayed mode has already proven viable (to an extent anyway), since otherwise w-space would be completely empty... but it isn't.
People living in w-space are in an even worse psychological situation - even if an AFK cloaker was online in their system, THEY COULD NOT KNOW there was one, so they get absolutely no warning whatsoever whenever an attack comes. And people still manage to get stuff done.
In comparison, the OP and his so-called "dire situation" is an abject joke.

The problem with your argument is that it offers no content at all. It's like telling your 5-year-old there is no monster behind the closet door and he need not to worry. Unless there is a monster, in which case he needs to worry. It offers absolutely nothing. In the case of the AFK cloaker you cannot tell wether he's AFK or not and that is the problem. Telling someone not to worry about an AFK player is no advice at all because you simply don't know if he's AFK or not.

The question that comes to mind is where is the risk to the cloaker(s)? I see the danger and risks to the miner but the cloaker has none. Is this really in the spirit of Eve? I see that the cloaker has a choice in attacking or not. But that is not a risk. It's another "perk" to being cloaked. No doubt this will turn into an argument of local versus no local. However, CCP has made it crystal clear that when local eventually goes it will be replaced by tool(s) that will aid in the form that local currently does. Of course, it will require skills. But whether these miners posess the necessary skills at the moment is irrelevant.

You also compare WH space with known space and fail to mention that the two are just different. WH space is better "buffered" or protected by gates. Its accessibility is limited, while known space isn't. Entering a wormhole space doesn't necessarily give the cloaker the advantage of knowing for certain that someone is there. While in known space the residents are known beyond doubt to live there. The point is when local goes I don't think it will be what you think it will be.


sue denim
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:17:00 - [83]
 

Blame ccp for making it so popular in the first place ;p Why? anomalies :| Sure there were some afore dominion but....

Marshall West
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:24:00 - [84]
 

It annoys me when people say things like it what there designed to do its how the game is.

I am a pvper i can fly cloaked ships and agree with the op something needs doing. Its been going a long time and people do pay there money to play the game how they want to play it. there is no reason for anyone to be in a system for 2 hours to 1 day afk in a cloaked ship. Arguments like what if i get disconnected and my cloak runs out or if i have to go see my dead grandma and need to sit cloaked in a system dont wash with me. The point is cloaks have no defence against. you say one bomber or one covert ops cant hurt you. well he sits there 3 hours afk comes back hulk or ratter in belt warps in light cyno mothership jumps in ganks his ass. I dont mine I pvp but even I can see the problems this is causing for people who pay as everyone else. Risks not a problem reds jump in and kill people thats cool. but to sit afk for ages in a system just to grief then thats well greifing and should have no place in a game. Easy solution make cloaks use cap it aint hard and if the guy isnt afk he can relcoak in 8 seconds not a big issue seems some of you make this a big issue.

those who say how do you know hes afk. well its the same dudes who do it and we all know they have alts who do other stuff while they sit logged on. and i think most people against this idea are probably people who couldnt pvp if it hit them in the face instead have to annoy everyone else. This is goign to get worse as more people have motherships. It already started to get pretty common and only going to get worse to the point where the game will die.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:38:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Marshall West
Words


I don't think it would be possible to write a better argument in favour of delayed local than Marshall West's posts.

Jeddeita
Minmatar
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:38:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Jeddeita on 30/09/2010 11:42:05
Edited by: Jeddeita on 30/09/2010 11:39:19
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Easy.

Remove local from 0.0

Your problem is solved - you'll never know if there is a SB in local or not and it won't matter if he's afk. Now you've got real submarine warfare. ugh
Yes, remove it. Then we can have more fun sat in system randomly de-cloaking a SB fleet and popping you. Sounds like win to me YARRRR!!

Oh wait, you'll likely whine about that too.

Edit: Indecently, then it'll be just like w-space regarding local and mining. Don't see people moaning about it there.

Baron Agamemnon
Caldari
The Einherji
Supernova Federation
Posted - 2010.09.30 11:48:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: kasiloth
First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me.

What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game.



No.

I used to camp a UK mining system once in my Manticore. I was supprised when UK started to dock their miners, really. Because killing a SB is very easy.

So if a 0.0 alliance/corp can't handle this they have best get back to high sec.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:05:00 - [88]
 

For all of you remove local people. I'll go along with that. If you give me some sort of sonar module that finds cloaked ships. You cant tell me that a IRL submarine is completely invisible when it raises to attack depth. Between sonar and a guy good at his job managing the depth charges you can not only find your invisible submarine but you can kill it too.

Also for all you guys saying remove local. I would love to see it happen. Your roaming gangs would suck unless you are bringing a wing of buzzards with you to either speed warp the belts or dump probes out in all those systems >14.whatever au. You would be the first ones to *****. Not the industrial. Even the battlefield has somewhat of a local, You know how many bad guys you see on the field. Stations are buildings, hills are your stargates as coming out from behind them dumps you in a single point much like Mr. Stargate Singularity and running behind them protects you from getting owned.

Aurora Aujii
Gallente
Genesis of Cosmic Grace
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:09:00 - [89]
 

Sounds like the game needs a counter-cloak ship - maybe an electronics interceptor heavy cruiser class ship with the ability to fit a very cpu intensive sensor system.

Give the ship superb on ship scanners that allow it to triangulate cloaked ships (note: this is a "cloaked" ship detector, and works by finding the cloaked ship's special signature - it cannot be used to also detect non-cloaked ship).

Perhaps we could add this to the game with a simple addition of a new module for the strategic cruiser - Electronics Superiority: Unveil.

A ship/module like this will ensure that cloaking has a counter.

Aurora

Mexna
Posted - 2010.09.30 12:13:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: kasiloth
First of all i appologize to u for my English but if i say what i want to say in my language nobody could understand me.

What i want to say here is that the tactic of an enemy to send a stealth bomber in a system staying there afk for hrs preventing local miners or raters to work is becoming a curse with a high risk to ruin the entire game. Hoppless miners have to warp back to their pos in system to protect their ships and stay there watching despareted at the local till red or neut will go. This tactic drops the developement indices of the system rapidly make it easier for the enemy to conquer it. The defenders can do absolutely nothing to avoid this situation that is realy frastrated. They cannot track down the stealth bomber and kill him. And also they dont know if he is afk or not to send out bites to uncover him. It is a silly and sick situation.

I can understand that stealth bombers are there to be used. But not that way. I can understand their right to jump into a system and kill as many macks or hulks they can kill. But to stay afk cloaked for hrs into a system that is another thing.It is not fair at all for the owner of the stealth bomber to use another alt of his to enjoy the game whilist the rest of the miners players sitting for hrs or maybe for days in their pos doing absolutely nothing.

CCp must do something on that before players start leaving the game for good.

I dont like to complain without a proposal, i would suggest CCp to deactivate cloacking device after a period of inactivity of lets say 30-60 min. So defenders could scan and chase the intruder.

If anyone of u has the same problem and has something better to propose please do it here.

Thank you

*Kasiloth is an alt of mine for obvious reasons






Only thing that i can come to think of is to implement what is done in WOW automaticly log out the charecter when afk longer that a certain amount of time.


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