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blankseplocked Enemy Stealth Bombers in a mining system. A becomming curse.
 
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.30 00:11:00 - [31]
 

Cloaking my snipe ruining your minning OP!

kasiloth
Posted - 2010.09.30 00:24:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Cloaking my snipe ruining your minning OP!



I thought u didnt fly a sniper LOL
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380762&page=2#31

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.30 00:36:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: kasiloth
I thought u didnt fly a sniper LOL


Not yet but if my page sniping record says anything I would rule all of EVE!

So I don't fly them to be fair to non sniper pr0s!

Captain Torgo
The Geedunk Expedition
Posted - 2010.09.30 00:43:00 - [34]
 

Are you seriously suggesting an AFK player is such a frightening thing that it brings your corporation to its knees? Really? Rolling Eyes

Then your corp doesn't deserve to live in low or null sec. What's next? Will you cry in fear over rotating asteroids as well?

Novemb3r
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.09.30 01:11:00 - [35]
 

Here's a hot tip. If he's AFK then he's not going to shoot at you anyway, and if he's not AFK then he's playing. Either way it doesn't stop you doing anything.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2010.09.30 01:15:00 - [36]
 

To the OP: Yes there should be a counter to so-called AFK cloakers (even if it is nerf local Twisted Evil). But there isn't. So you have to adapt.

-Do like another poster said, move next door and see if he follows.
-Set traps.
-If he uses the same bombs all the while overtank for that damage type.
-Is there a pattern to his attack timings? He has gotta sleep sometime and also may have to work.
-Mine grav sites - he has to scan u down for those and combat probes give u warning.
-Check the character bazaar/killboards etc, see if he has been purchased or if you can find out whos alt it is (if it is even an alt).
-Talk to the guy after an attack, when he is full of himself. He might let something slip. Stay calm tho or you will only encourage him.
-Make your own AFK cloaker alt and put it in their system. Fight fire with fire.
-Anchor bubbles/cans/drones near your op to uncloak him and/or to block alignment to celestials. Works especially well with an instalock sniper.
-Split up so the bomb gets one of you not all of you.
-Go mine/live in a wormhole. Better ore/no belts/no local makes his job much harder.
-Run lvl 4s in empire. Better pay than mining and no afk cloakers.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2010.09.30 01:32:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you.
You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ?
TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is.
In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too.

When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK.
Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that.

Logical fallacy.

"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."

Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?


Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2010.09.30 01:45:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 30/09/2010 01:45:58
So much complaining about lone AFK cloaking. But really, the only reason the AFK cloaker is even a threat is because the complainers are lone AFK mining.

Bella Yar
Posted - 2010.09.30 02:00:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: kasiloth

Nice try man but im not a carebear. I live in o.o space far more than u been able to play this game. I got a ten accounts mining fleet and i have lost alot of ships by red attacks.




lolololololololololololololol

Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.30 02:03:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Forluhn
I've always thought that Carriers should be able to fit a EMP type module that can decloak and disable electronics for like 30 seconds anything within say 10 Au's or something like that.


Make it a system-wide EMP that disables cloaking for a few minutes, that also prevents the carrier from warping/cyno'ing for the duration of cloak shutdown (and also prevents to activate triage) and that's one hell of a great idea ugh


Zan Shiro
Posted - 2010.09.30 02:15:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Zan Shiro on 30/09/2010 02:51:53
Originally by: Novemb3r
Here's a hot tip. If he's AFK then he's not going to shoot at you anyway, and if he's not AFK then he's playing. Either way it doesn't stop you doing anything.


this, worst case scenario the cloaky you fear is in a damn covert ops. have had squaters/macro's/wh'er day trippers fear my buzzard of death. Was just out bm'ing and getting scanning practice. Someone wants to provide entertainment running around like a chicken with its head cut off...makes it worth while to hang around a bit.

Or you get the smart ratter...knows intel is not showing signs of a black ops gang, knows his tank good enough for 1 bomb and torp salvo (in case its a sb)....he stays. Move on to find some better systems in that case cause not entertaining.

Moral of the story, if you feed a stray dog, he is gonna stay around. don't feed them entertainemnt or easy kills (group up prevents this) and they go away.



Tian Shasair
Posted - 2010.09.30 02:19:00 - [42]
 

Surely one SB isn't going to take out a whole mining fleet? I don't have any real experience with bombs (or 0.0, just sorta thinking aloud), but as far as torp's go he can only attack one at a time right? Plus he'd have to have you pointed for that time... if he's close enough for that he's well within drone range (wouldn't you already have drones out and on "aggro"). So what's to stop you warping out when he attacks? If he does launch a bomb, can you get out before it hits?

Talaan Stardrifter
Universal Exports
Posted - 2010.09.30 03:39:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Talaan Stardrifter on 30/09/2010 03:40:37
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Akita T
Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you.
You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ?
TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is.
In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too.

When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK.
Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that.

Logical fallacy.

"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."

Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?


Here it is:
  • If Cloaked AFK, then the threat is non-existant (or at least dormant).
  • If Cloaked and Active, then system is working as intended.

Also, obligatory Nerf Local! comment. ugh
Due to Local being omniscient, Cloakers are able to project a high degree of psychological warfare, and the weak minded perish.

Cobalt Sixty
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2010.09.30 03:50:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 30/09/2010 03:51:18
Originally by: Talaan Stardrifter
Due to Local being omniscient, Cloakers are able to project a high degree of psychological warfare, and the weak minded perish.
YARRRR!!

Xessej
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:05:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Xessej on 30/09/2010 04:06:49
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it.


That may have been true a long time ago but in the mordern world ASW has gotten quite sophisticated. This is a huge failing of Eve right now. A cloaker is too safe.

BTW the fast locking sniper is of no use against a good bomber pilot. He'll get 30km out from his main target, decloak, launch the bomb and align to warp out all in the same series of keystrokes. Even if the sniper gets the SB its a good trade for one or more Hulks.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:36:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Xessej

BTW the fast locking sniper is of no use against a good bomber pilot. He'll get 30km out from his main target, decloak, launch the bomb and align to warp out all in the same series of keystrokes. Even if the sniper gets the SB its a good trade for one or more Hulks.


This is more troubling than the bombers ability to cloak.

If you think he's AFK, move systems. If he follows, he's not AFK. At that point, you need an escort to defend yourself.

If SBs can attack with total impunity ("IF"), then I'd say there is an issue as there should always be a counter.

But complaining about someone being in your system, cloaked, possibly AFK ... HTFU and deal.

Epegi Givo
Amarr
Department of Redundancy Dpt.
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:38:00 - [47]
 

AFK cloaking explained

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

I did not make this.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:45:00 - [48]
 

Said this before, but the issue crops up often enough that I might as well say it again here.

There is nothing wrong with cloaks. Cloaking modules cloak a ship... there's nothing more to be said here. They do not need to require cap (although realistically they probably should, but internet submarines isn't realistic), they do not need fuel, they do not need a timer. Cloaks are fine...

HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me...

The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep....

For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played, maybe that's just me, feel free to disagree, but it's just as bad as a macro IMO. You log in, click a button and walk away. Second, there is no risk to doing this. One of the things I love about Eve is the risk, if you are undocked -anywhere- you are at risk, in a 1.0 surrounded by concord, you are at risk, inside POS shields you are still at risk. But throw a cloak on and you can wonder away from your computer for hours on end in the most dangerous red filled 0.0 system without the slightest worry. Just doesn't seem right.

It's not the threat, I lived in them for several months and developed tactics to deal with those in there that I couldn't see. But the whole "no possible way to touch me" thing though just seems like it's against the principle of Eve, sure, that means I could use it too, but honestly, I'd rather have a way to find my stealth bomber and enjoy some risk... call me crazy, but that's why I like Eve.

As for ways to fix this, only one way I've been able to think of that both leaves the cloak alone as far as being nearly invincible (so don't start crying, there would be no change to the cloak), but gives the attacker the advantage if you wonder away to catch a movie. New scan probes with a 15 minute or so scan cycle time that detect covert ships. You launch them and press scan and it takes 15 minutes before it finishes and shows you cloaked signatures. You can still be cloaked and wonder away for short times for a bio or whatever, as long as you aren't AFK. If you are there, you have 15 whole minutes to see these cloaking-detector-probes on your scanner and change your safe spot so it'll "disrupt the scan" or whatever and you won't show up.

Cloaks are still nearly invincible, change your safespot every 10 minutes and nobody can ever touch you, I don't see how someone can complain about that. However, you can no longer just wonder off for a 3 day weekend and leave your covert-ops ship idling 300 off a gate. Seems fair to me no?

Brannor McThife
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:47:00 - [49]
 

It's simple... 0.0 is not meant for carebears to mine without escort... if you want to mine without stealth bombers bothering you, go to hisec and deal with suicide gankers instead.

I can't believe someone is complaining about being hunted in 0.0...
I mean... WTF do you think happens in wormholes? People go mine there without escorts? (If you do, you're stupid and asking to die).

Just use one of your 10 accounts as a combat ship fitted to kill that ship type quickly... SB will stay away...

-G

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.09.30 04:51:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Brannor McThife
I can't believe someone is complaining about being hunted in 0.0...


Seems to me the problem is they would like to be able to hunt this person, and the game isn't allowing it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.30 05:30:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2010 05:32:50
Originally by: Exlegion
Logical fallacy.
"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."
Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?

There's no flaw in that argument, and it's not a fallacy.
He's either really AFK most of the time, in which case he can't hurt you at all, just scare you if you let him... or he's not AFK much and CAN therefore hurt you, but that's intended gameplay behaviour.

It becomes a case of how often does he attack, how many does he manage to kill, and what average daily destruction actual ISK losses are.
If those losses are usually noticeably smaller than the potentially lost income because everybody is scared pantsless to go out and do their thing... who's the stupid party in that scenario ?

The only reason you even KNOW a "potentially AFK cloaker" is there is because of "local", which was never intended to become *THE* intel tool, but CCP is feeling wishy-washy about wiping it out altogether since they don't have any reasonable effort-based replacement intel tool ready, and they lack the balls to just yank it out altogether thanks to people like the OP that already cream their pants in much less stressful situations.
Local in delayed mode has already proven viable (to an extent anyway), since otherwise w-space would be completely empty... but it isn't.
People living in w-space are in an even worse psychological situation - even if an AFK cloaker was online in their system, THEY COULD NOT KNOW there was one, so they get absolutely no warning whatsoever whenever an attack comes. And people still manage to get stuff done.
In comparison, the OP and his so-called "dire situation" is an abject joke.

Originally by: BeanBagKing
HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me...
The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep....
For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played


And that's exactly why LOCAL SHOULD BE REMOVED LaughingTwisted EvilLaughing

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:10:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Originally by: BeanBagKing
HOWEVER! (and here's the big but that I'll get flamed for by someone I'm sure). AFK cloakers are not, at least not with me...
The problem is that most people who do this are all AFK. I would have no problem with the current mechanics if I knew they were all in front of their computer, but something smells wrong to me when it becomes a strategy to log in, click a module, and go to work/school/sleep....
For one, I just don't feel it's the way the game should be played


And that's exactly why LOCAL SHOULD BE REMOVED LaughingTwisted EvilLaughing



2 issues I have with this...

1) To easy to automate, we've all seen Jita scripts that spam WTS Navy Raven contracts in local every 3 seconds. Just take one of those and make it say "I'm watching you..." Every 30 minutes or so.
Now you can see the reds in local, clicking a button and going AFK remains a valid tactic.

2) Even if it removes it as a strategy, I still have an issue with someone being AFK and completely safe from any harm what-so-ever in a system filled with reds. This is based purely on principle, no matter if I know they are there or not.

Now personally, I do like local the way it is, wormholes are all exciting and cut off feeling, it provides good contrast, but when I get back into k-space it's nice to look around and see who's in my system that I'm buddies with, and who I might want to start hunting down. I agree it has it's problems, removing it I think would go a long way towards removing some of the macros in the game. It may make things easier for lowsec pirates, but would would gimp some new player systems and defiantly put a hurt on 0.0 alliances. I've always thought a sov module which let you connect to CONCORD's network, allowing you to see local, would be an interesting twist, put it up or not, it's your choice, and it may be destroyed first if your home is sieged Very Happy Maybe the lower your sec status, the longer you keep from being seen in lowsec only (takes 15 seconds to appear in local or something?)

Anyway, I think there's balancing ideas and gameplay that can go there beyond simply removing it all together or putting it on delayed mode. But I don't think it's the solution to AFK cloakers (call me bias towards my own idea Razz)

flummox
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:16:00 - [53]
 

not this crap again. what's the mantra? adapt or die...

do it.

the dying part, please.

Ironwomen
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:23:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers


Bear in mind that in RL submarine warfare there is no "instant" local to spot your enemies with... so you will never know if a sub is there or not. All you have is the thought that it MIGHT be there and it MIGHT attack and you MIGHT not be able to do anything about it.

This is why high-value warships and supply ships do not move alone and have escorts.


Perfect ^^

Be happy you can see him in local, I hope he/she sees this thread lol then he/she is NEVER gona leave you alone lol.

Sub's "play" afk, aka, not moving, running quite... as to not be seen... read... cloak.
They very well may do nothing but reporting back movements.
How do you know this SB is not doing the same?

Lillith Starfire
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:28:00 - [55]
 

Not to be pedantic but going with the submarine analogy. Even submarines can be "probed" down using sonar. The fact is cloaking is in a way the invincible and immune to attack button. It is not relevent if the pilot is AFK or not. Once you cloak you are safe. And since when was anything supposed to be safe in 0.0?

flummox
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:41:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lillith Starfire
Not to be pedantic but going with the submarine analogy. Even submarines can be "probed" down using sonar. The fact is cloaking is in a way the invincible and immune to attack button. It is not relevent if the pilot is AFK or not. Once you cloak you are safe. And since when was anything supposed to be safe in 0.0?


it is 100% relevent if they are AFK or not. if they are AFK, then you're still safe; simply paranoid. and if they aren't AFK, you're then required to use normal tactics to retain your safety.

if... after 5 YEARS... they make cloaks WORSE, then only the carebears win.

p.s. you can't do ANYTHING but watch and warp when cloaked. i believe that fits in perfectly, and with relevence, to the Risk vs. Reward scenario we all know and love. if you stop what you are trying to do because of a name appearing in local, then you are playing the wrong game, or you are playing the game wrong. pick one, and either log in or cancel scrip. your choice.

Lillith Starfire
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:53:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: flummox

it is 100% relevent if they are AFK or not. if they are AFK, then you're still safe; simply paranoid. and if they aren't AFK, you're then required to use normal tactics to retain your safety.

if... after 5 YEARS... they make cloaks WORSE, then only the carebears win.

p.s. you can't do ANYTHING but watch and warp when cloaked. i believe that fits in perfectly, and with relevence, to the Risk vs. Reward scenario we all know and love. if you stop what you are trying to do because of a name appearing in local, then you are playing the wrong game, or you are playing the game wrong. pick one, and either log in or cancel scrip. your choice.



Actually I agree there should not be safe activities in 0.0 such as mining. What I'm saying is the same should also apply to the cloaker. You say they can only gather intel? Isn't quite true but they can still do it without any threat at all. So it shouldn't be safe for miner or ratters but by the same token it shouldn't be safe for ANYONE. Cloak = safe.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.30 06:57:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Akita T
Man up, get some balls, stop whining and IGNORE THE GUY unless he attacks you.
You're basically complaining your "early warning system" that is called "LOCAL" is not working properly ?
TOUGH LUCK, BUBBA, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT IT GONE FOR GOOD ! Local, that is.
In which case, you would have the "imgwtfbbq AFK cloaker alert maybe or waaah waaah I wanna go home" syndrome in an otherwise empty system too.

When he doesn't attack you, you have no reason to be worried about him. When he attacks you, he's not AFK.
Being worried about anything else is just plain ole' simple cowardice. We don't have a cure for that.

Logical fallacy.

"Don't worry if he's AFK because he won't hurt you. Unless he's not AFK. Then you need to worry."

Can anyone at all point out the flaw in this argument? Or is it just obvious to me?




It is one of the many variants of the prisoner dilemma.

About the OP problem: if you manage 10 mining ships probably you use multiple screens and maybe multiple PC; mining in 0.0 you usually need a tanking ship to protect the miners from rats, fit it for a fast lock and long range alpha, set it up with its account always visible on one of the screens, assign all the drones to that ship.
As soon as the attackers decloack target him and fire. You have good chances to kill him if he is in a SB.

That way you will not even need to ask help from one or more of the corp PvPers.

If you are managing 10 accounts at the same time without macros you probably are at the Pc all the time, not surfing the net or whatever, so it should work.

As an alternative mine only in exploration sites.

Br41n
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:05:00 - [59]
 

So he is away from his keyboard for hours, what exactly is the problem?
he can't hurt you when he is AFK.

And well plenty of counters to bombers, just start protecting your miners

cpu939
Gallente
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2010.09.30 07:11:00 - [60]
 

ok to the op,

1 - research your pest find his kills see if he has a set time he likes to play, is he killing his target in a set window make sure your you know when that is ask your corp/alliance if they see him and to note the time is he loging on after dt or is it later record this on your forums

by getting this info you'll have a better idea when to bait him

if you can always have the bait set up to run if you need the toilet don't think i'll only be 30 seconds, safe up set the bait again

2 - your part of a corp/alliance if there not helping you leave them find a new corp that works together.

3 if your mining in a hulk fit 5 ec 300's and 5 warrior t2's can't kill him change to the ec 300's jam his ship warp out

be smart information is the key, afk cloakers don't target smart players they like easy, stupid and isk rich player that fit estamel's invul fields on hulks or fly paladin officer fitted with no way to kill a player in a frig. sorry thats not just afk cloaker but all pvper that like those players

if he can't get kills and is lossing all the time, he will leave unless he is there to break your moral like goons and other alliance have used to win wars before they even invade the space

how to tell if you kill him 3 times and more of his corp/alliance turn up then more likely they are there to break your moral. if he is just out for easy kills then he will move on.

to the remove local people - atm this is a bad idea we have sceen this with wspace ccp had to change the dscan to a 2 sec delay now think about all the extra people that live in 0.0 dscan pressed -> information request sent to server -> information list created -> information sent to player.

lets fix lag befor we add more work to the server



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