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OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.10.02 02:36:00 - [121]
 


Balance has destroyed many online games over the years. To begin with you have a more "rock, paper, scissors" aproch which enables more tactics and strategy in weapon/ship choice where by one race is better at doing one thing than another and each has their own sector which beats the other races, this works REALLY well for eve as long time players can train alternative races and recive multiple race bonuses.

Balancing everything in a game means there is little point to switching it up and removes counter tactics and ultimatly depth of the gameplay. Alot of the people here are basically looking for rockets to fill the same role as standard missles which should not happen.

Missles fill a current role, however if your going to change them then enhance or adapt their role within the game. Make them extreamly effective at destroying drones for example or buff their use with defender missles to be able to counter a full wave of missles (which would be handy for a heavy tackle going up VS a drake army for example).

I dont want to see an eve where the races and the weapons used are only for asthetics. Please be careful and add to the game aposed to equalizing the damage/range of weapons ingame and therfore reducing game content.



This sounds fair, fun, reasonable, and tricky. Fortunately ’balance’ is a relative thing, and players make up for a lot by adopting tactics to overcome their limitations. But let’s back up.

Balance hasn’t destroyed anything; spastic lunges towards balance might have. And actually, even that premise is questionable, as it would be difficult to find even a single MMO, going all the way back to the old days of UO or Meridian, that was destroyed by dev balancing -- and this is including companies using nerf - overbuff - nerf as a player retention mechanism.

In any case, CCP hardly seems to have this problem. The problem here, if you choose to see it as such, is not overcorrection… but apathy. Eve will not be destroyed or even damaged if rockets actually worked -- it has, after all, survived the laughable Dramiel. Eve will survive if Caldari are actually good, or even (gasp) the best at something.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 03:30:00 - [122]
 

When I think of rockets I think: High rates of fire, low overall damage, and high explosion velocities. (I point to the Hydra 70) Basically the auto-cannons of missiles w/ lower damage.

Why is this approach being shelfed for high alpha, low rate of fire, and medium explosion velocities?

Server/client load?

Stuart Price
Caldari
FLA5HY RED
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.10.02 04:06:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Stuart Price on 02/10/2010 04:06:49
Originally by: Shak'Rah
Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Gypsio III
Taranisii


Jesus christ man adding random -iiiiii at or around the end of the word doesnt make latin pluraliiiiilisiissiiiiiii


proper latin would mean that the word would be Taranii, however since i'm not aware of any latin words with a stem taran- this wouldn't make sense since it probably doesn't exist.

the proper way to say it would be in english, and that would be Taranis'

sorry for the derail i just hate people misusing latin because they think it's cool


To add evidence to this:

Taranis is the Celtic god of thunder so the word Taranis is not latin. The correct plural is therefore Taranis' as pointed out.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.02 07:54:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/10/2010 07:59:05
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/10/2010 07:55:31
Originally by: Aedron
CCP need to be really careful here,

First point I will make is I dislike balance.

Balance has destroyed many online games over the years. To begin with you have a more "rock, paper, scissors" aproch which enables more tactics and strategy in weapon/ship choice where by one race is better at doing one thing than another and each has their own sector which beats the other races, this works REALLY well for eve as long time players can train alternative races and recive multiple race bonuses.

Balancing everything in a game means there is little point to switching it up and removes counter tactics and ultimatly depth of the gameplay. Alot of the people here are basically looking for rockets to fill the same role as standard missles which should not happen.



I think you dont really understand what balancing is... It IS creating rock-paper-scissors, not rock-rock-rock situation (like supercarriers nowadays which are result of VERY poor balancing). So what destroyed those game was not balancing but lack of it. Balancing means using different game approaches (weapons/characters/vechicles, you name it) and creating them in such way that there isnt one "to rule them all" but every one of them is equally useful in their own role.

Quote:

Missles fill a current role, however if your going to change them then enhance or adapt their role within the game. Make them extreamly effective at destroying drones for example or buff their use with defender missles to be able to counter a full wave of missles (which would be handy for a heavy tackle going up VS a drake army for example).



The MAJOR advantage of standards is their range. Except for this they are used almost as rarely on frigates as rockets are because small missile systems (standards/rockets) are just worse than rails or pulses atm. Standards tho have their saving grace in form of Assault Missile Launchers (cruiser sized mod) which lets Caracals or Cerbs eat frigs alive. Thus standards do work as fleet anti-frig system BUT only on cruiser hulls. They are kinda meh on frig hulls. Rockets on other hand work only on frig hulls and are meh to begin with.

Quote:

I dont want to see an eve where the races and the weapons used are only for asthetics. Please be careful and add to the game aposed to equalizing the damage/range of weapons ingame and therfore reducing game content.


You wont see it as long as they are balanced against each other.

Quote:
When I think of rockets I think: High rates of fire, low overall damage, and high explosion velocities. (I point to the Hydra 70) Basically the auto-cannons of missiles w/ lower damage.
Why is this approach being shelfed for high alpha, low rate of fire, and medium explosion velocities?
Server/client load?


Id say server load + reload issues, but mostly 1st one. Still rockets are fastest weapon in game (or very close to it tied with ACs).

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.10.02 10:24:00 - [125]
 

Quote:
I dont want to see an eve where the races and the weapons used are only for asthetics. Please be careful and add to the game aposed to equalizing the damage/range of weapons ingame and therfore reducing game content.


Well, "races and weapons used only for aesthetics" is exactly what you get when balance is screwed up. Because then people only fly one race or ship, and the others never get used. Like seeing Dramiels everywhere... or ACs on frigates, or Sabres?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.10.02 11:48:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Aedron
CCP need to be really careful here...

Light missiles are the stand-off weapons of choice against frigates, rockets have 7-8km (never actually got my 10km out of them Sad) range at best so I doubt they'll encroach on lights.
What I have seen and heard on SiSi, the changes as posted makes rocks supremely effective against drones and frigates so they are in fact already trying to make them fill a role (albeit a too limited one in my opinion).

My wish remains the same: Mini-torps - High damage, crap exp.velocity/radius. Make me giddy with joy for fitting a web and reward me for using a extremely range limited weapon! Very Happy

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 12:41:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 02/10/2010 12:57:50
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Id say server load + reload issues, but mostly 1st one. Still rockets are fastest weapon in game (or very close to it tied with ACs).


I figured it was a limitation with the server or clients. At any rate, this is a poor excuse for not implementing the proper behavior for rockets. IMHO if you cant get rockets to behave like "rockets" then they do not need to name them rockets, as it gives a wrong impression to the functionality of said weapon.

As for rockets hitting the target every time, for a unguided missile this is unacceptable! Rockets should be chance based (with skills modifying the chance to hit) and should not explode unless it "hits" the target. As it is now, as I understand it, every rocket fired detonates regardless if it does damage to the target or not.

IMHO, all unguided missiles in the game need to be re looked at, not just rockets, so that game balance can have more flexibility to adjust the damage and splash damage of all unguided missiles.

Or am I wrong?

Edit: I suggest naming them flack missiles. Laughing

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.02 12:55:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/10/2010 12:55:53
Originally by: Zendoren

As for rockets hitting the target every time, for a unguided missile this is unacceptable! Rockets should be chance based and should not explode unless it "hits" the target. As it is now, as I understand it, every rocket fired detonates regardless if it does damage to the target or not.



What? Maybe go onto sisi/tq and use rockets even... once? Also what splash damage of unguided missiles? Seems to me you never used rocket (or any other missile) in this game (or used them back in 2003 when torps indeed did have splash damage).

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 13:00:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/10/2010 12:55:53
Originally by: Zendoren

As for rockets hitting the target every time, for a unguided missile this is unacceptable! Rockets should be chance based and should not explode unless it "hits" the target. As it is now, as I understand it, every rocket fired detonates regardless if it does damage to the target or not.



What? Maybe go onto sisi/tq and use rockets even... once? Also what splash damage of unguided missiles? Seems to me you never used rocket (or any other missile) in this game (or used them back in 2003 when torps indeed did have splash damage).


It has been a while since I used rockets and im on my way into sis as we speak to brush up on them; however, doesn't all missiles have a explosion velocity? (I.E. splash damage?)

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2010.10.02 14:02:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Edited by: Zendoren on 02/10/2010 12:57:50
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Id say server load + reload issues, but mostly 1st one. Still rockets are fastest weapon in game (or very close to it tied with ACs).


I figured it was a limitation with the server or clients. At any rate, this is a poor excuse for not implementing the proper behavior for rockets. IMHO if you cant get rockets to behave like "rockets" then they do not need to name them rockets, as it gives a wrong impression to the functionality of said weapon.

As for rockets hitting the target every time, for a unguided missile this is unacceptable! Rockets should be chance based (with skills modifying the chance to hit) and should not explode unless it "hits" the target. As it is now, as I understand it, every rocket fired detonates regardless if it does damage to the target or not.

IMHO, all unguided missiles in the game need to be re looked at, not just rockets, so that game balance can have more flexibility to adjust the damage and splash damage of all unguided missiles.

Or am I wrong?

Edit: I suggest naming them flack missiles. Laughing


Likely this is an issue with server "ticks" which presumably (as CCP have stated before they do not like things with less than a 1s cycle time) happen at 1s intervals, making anything that occurs more frequently than once per second problematic.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 14:15:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 02/10/2010 14:18:03
So why cant CCP have a server dedicated to <1s (1ms) tick operations that supports the rest of the cluster. I'm sure there are more then just a few operations that would benefit from this approach. (Think of it as a support server for the rest of the cluster that keeps time and process sub tick operations.)We might as well say that lag can not be fixed due to server limitations. Again, server limitation is a lax explanation for why its not being implemented.

If there is a will there is a way! As it is right now will is still on mandated CCP summer vacation. ROFL

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.10.02 14:54:00 - [132]
 

Quote:
It has been a while since I used rockets and im on my way into sis as we speak to brush up on them; however, doesn't all missiles have a explosion velocity? (I.E. splash damage?)


...
Explo velocity is just one stat for target velocity vs missile explo velocity comparison, somewhat similiar (but still different) to turret tracking. There is no splash damage in eve except for bombs and smartbombs.

Quote:

Likely this is an issue with server "ticks" which presumably (as CCP have stated before they do not like things with less than a 1s cycle time) happen at 1s intervals, making anything that occurs more frequently than once per second problematic.


There was a thing i always wanted to test but always managed to forget it:
will weapon with say 3,1 rof, 2,9rof and 3,0 rof fire rounds at same frequency (say empty ammo mag exactly at same time) or will differences be 0,1second times ammo count?

If someone is bored enough to check it go ahead :) Best way would be to use 2x damage mod and use 3rd one (50% stacking) to get around 5% time change. Should be visible after firing full mag of say rockets (50 ammo on sisi).

Would do it myself but atm my eve copy is in such borked state (thank you last patch and patch to patch!) that i really CBA to even copy it for sisi.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.10.02 15:41:00 - [133]
 

Dual-prop Hookbill is brutal with these rockets. Very Happy

McCreary075
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2010.10.02 15:55:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The kestrel is getting dangerously close to a little overpowered really for a T1 frigate and the hookbill is a very good ride already. The other interceptors perform admirably here like the crow but not in the 2007 version which was king above all others. Comparing the other ships to the hookbill will be always skewing the outlook since a "pimp'bill" will be very powerful in the right hands with these changes and some good fits.


First off, I approve of your efforts to balance eve in a sane and reasonable manner.

I'm going to offer a few points to consider. (Otherwise, why would I be posting?? :P)

1. I'm not sure where you are going with the ROF decrease. I'm assuming you are balancing the damage increase, but the raw damage of rockets is pathetic, to say nothing of the actual application.

2. Most sane people agree that balancing weapon systems includes ensuring that the ships that mount them do not become OMGWTFPWN. However, if one ship seems to be giving you trouble, then adjust it so it doesn't become overpowered. Adjust the crow; pull a launcher, change the bonus to standard missiles only, drop the bonus from 10% to 5%. I'm not saying any one of these is the right choice, I'm saying that you HAVE choices. Also, much has changed since 2007, and I'm not sure that a rocket crow with even 20% more dps would be OP. The same thing goes for other ships, like the worm or hookbill. Don't quasi-fix a weapon system because you choose not to touch a ship here and there to make it work with your proposed changes.

3. As an extension of 2, you need to look at the Amarr ships that use rockets. Even with these changes, I don't think that I would fit a Vengeance with rockets rather than autocannons.

4. Remember, that while standard missiles do less damage than rockets currently, they can hit to 35km or so with little effort. This tremendous range advantage means that the 'constant 70 DPS' that you are worried about does matter. You'd easily nibble people to death if you boosted standards by too much. Rockets, however, are competing within 10km with all the other frigates and frigate sized weapons. So, while you should be worried about over-boosting rockets, you need to go a long way before you hit autocannon dps, laser dps, or blaster dps. In frigate fights, I've never seen a frigate that couldn't hit another, unless it was stuck near the edge of falloff, and that is usually only when one frigate is left or in a 1v1. Normally, once everyone is mixing it up, and most everybody is tackled, people are hitting each other. While turret boats will try to position themselves to make best use of their guns, once they do, they will greatly outdamage the missile ships.

Just a few observations based on PvP experience. Again, though, I approve of your changes, and I think you are on the right track. I'm not as qualified to speak to the explosion velocity change, but fellow missile pilots really like it.

Keep up the good work, and don't let the chumps get you down.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 16:35:00 - [135]
 

Quote:
Explo velocity is just one stat for target velocity vs missile explo velocity comparison, somewhat similiar (but still different) to turret tracking. There is no splash damage in eve except for bombs and smartbombs.


It's been a while for me regarding missiles excuse my nativity. But do you find it strange that CCP does not have splash damage for missiles in general? i would think all explosions would have splash damage.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2010.10.02 16:45:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Quote:
Explo velocity is just one stat for target velocity vs missile explo velocity comparison, somewhat similiar (but still different) to turret tracking. There is no splash damage in eve except for bombs and smartbombs.


It's been a while for me regarding missiles excuse my nativity. But do you find it strange that CCP does not have splash damage for missiles in general? i would think all explosions would have splash damage.


Heh I read a post about 'sane, sensible balancing' then this one. The contrast made me nearly fall off my chair.

Splash damage from missiles is a **** poor idea. You'd either have to make the splash so small as it would be impossible to hit anything at all, or you'd make missiles totally unusable along side drones or tacklers. Basically you would constantly kill and injure your own guys, and missiles which are already under-represented in PvP would become even less popular.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.10.02 16:52:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: McCreary075
First off, I approve of your efforts to balance eve in a sane and reasonable manner.

Good points all-round *golf-clap*.
Originally by: Zendoren
It's been a while for me regarding missiles excuse my nativity. But do you find it strange that CCP does not have splash damage for missiles in general? i would think all explosions would have splash damage.

There is no medium to carry a shockwave in space so the only way would be to have them release a ton of shrapnel which is notoriously bad news for all sides in a scuffle.

Torpedoes did have splash damage back in the early days when the number of hamsters could be tallied on one hand.
The additional calculations required for such a thing today with hundreds of people slapping each other at a time would bring the server to its knees on an hourly basis .. unless missiles were made so utterly fail as to be useless which is neither here nor there.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.10.02 17:28:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Zendoren on 02/10/2010 17:28:58
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: McCreary075
First off, I approve of your efforts to balance eve in a sane and reasonable manner.

Good points all-round *golf-clap*.
Originally by: Zendoren
It's been a while for me regarding missiles excuse my nativity. But do you find it strange that CCP does not have splash damage for missiles in general? i would think all explosions would have splash damage.

There is no medium to carry a shockwave in space so the only way would be to have them release a ton of shrapnel which is notoriously bad news for all sides in a scuffle.

Torpedoes did have splash damage back in the early days when the number of hamsters could be tallied on one hand.
The additional calculations required for such a thing today with hundreds of people slapping each other at a time would bring the server to its knees on an hourly basis .. unless missiles were made so utterly fail as to be useless which is neither here nor there.


So basically what you just described to me is the ultimate null-sec weapon. Laughing

All kidding aside, thanks for the reply on the splash damage bit! makes sense.

I am suddenly reminded that there is no air in space.... but why do I still hear a voice of rage when I shoot someone? Laughing

But that still leaves the low rate of fire bit!d

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.10.02 17:55:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: 1600 RT on 02/10/2010 17:55:50
i dont understand why the changes to rof/dmg worry you guys that much, over all you get a (minor) dps boost less volley mean a slightly less stress for the server.
for solo combat rof/dmg mean (almost) nothing dps its all that matters, expecially for missiles.
for group combat having a higher initial volley means you will look better on KB when the target instapop.

all i see are RP reason to have low rof/low damage and if i have to chose between RP and combat/server efficency i rather get the 2nd option.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.10.02 20:34:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
I am suddenly reminded that there is no air in space.... but why do I still hear a voice of rage when I shoot someone? Laughing

Sounds like a question you are better off asking your shrink to be honest, not really Eve related Twisted Evil
Originally by: Zendoren
But that still leaves the low rate of fire bit!d

Every round fired is calculated server side so you can probably imagine why CCP is more interested in a higher RoF.
Not all rockets are rapid-fire, the concept of the rocket just means dumb-fired chemically propelled ordnance .. you are probably hung up on the awesome spectacle that helicopter gunships provide with rocket pods but heavier/slower systems exist Very Happy

k'nah Manaan
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.10.02 22:01:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Dual-prop Hookbill is brutal with these rockets. Very Happy


I can confirm this guy knows his hookbill :)

on a side note I had a lot of fun with the rocket Vengeance.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.10.03 00:14:00 - [142]
 

The Hawk now seems reasonably balanced against Jaguar and Wolf from what I've seen. I was trying to kite them to mitigate some of their DPS via falloff, while trying to tank the rest with a SSB and Blue Pill. It worked some of the time. I haven't tried the MSE Hawk yet, or the MSB option.

Hawk vs Ishkur is an interesting fight too. The Hawk has to reload to EM or explosive, and loses a third of its DPS straight away. But the new rockets are effective against drones, and if the Iskhur fits hybrids then it's hitting the Hawks highest resists.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2010.10.03 11:51:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 03/10/2010 11:56:00
My feeling. Now things go okish against small ships when compared to turrets. But still much inferior to turret AFrigates when dealing with larger targets. A bit more raw damage with a bit larger explosion radius would be able to balance that.

In fact MY personal view is that standard missiles should be great to dealing with small ships. And rockets should feel like dumb brute force weapons. Quite HIGHER dps, but very bad against fast moving targets. That would mean rockets would be used when hunting cruisers and above.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2010.10.03 13:03:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
And rockets should feel like dumb brute force weapons. Quite HIGHER dps, but very bad against fast moving targets. That would mean rockets would be used when hunting cruisers and above.


Do we have to go through again why this is such a terrible idea? Sad

Dro Nee
Posted - 2010.10.03 18:49:00 - [145]
 

Played around with some friends on Sisi and I have to say that the rocketHawk and veng are p. nice now. I think they both could still stand a slight dps boost (5% or so) but I am more than happy to fly them if they went live as is. Hookbill and worm will be tested soon.... anticipating happy times.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.03 22:31:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
And rockets should feel like dumb brute force weapons. Quite HIGHER dps, but very bad against fast moving targets. That would mean rockets would be used when hunting cruisers and above.


Do we have to go through again why this is such a terrible idea? Sad


This idea isnt so hot esp since, Inty`s of Caldari etc rely on them to kill other frigs.

Im sorry but this buff was like bad sex. Bad sex with a hot ****star you have been waiting to screw since 4 years ago.

You think its gonna be epic when it finally happens, then you see this and its "Meh at best" and that makes all your hopes and dreams dashed and 10x worse.

Im sorry but rockets have been to bad for to long, it needs x2 the buff it got.

Hawk will still get PWND by a Jag/Wolf and also by Ishtar and Dram.

This was nothing but BAD SEX, unsatisfying, and better to have nevr happend at all.

Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar
Garnet Resources
Posted - 2010.10.03 23:05:00 - [147]
 

[Hawk, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium Shield Extender II
Small Shield Booster II
1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


nowamsayin

OT Smithers
Posted - 2010.10.03 23:27:00 - [148]
 

Assuming, as several posters here have suggested, that this "fix" makes rockets somewhat less laughable, and perhaps even somewhat close (yet still inferior)to the effectiveness of other frigate weapons...

How in the heck is this a fix? It's all well and good to duel on test against others looking to duel. In such an environment the biggest drawback of Caldari frigates -- their terrible slow speed -- can be ignored. On live it makes all the difference.

If you combine the slowest frigates, worst drone capacity, and a short range weapon that requires a web to work, then for f*ck's sake make the weapon brutally effective.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.10.03 23:40:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Zendoren
It's been a while for me regarding missiles excuse my nativity. But do you find it strange that CCP does not have splash damage for missiles in general? i would think all explosions would have splash damage.

There is no medium to carry a shockwave in space so the only way would be to have them release a ton of shrapnel which is notoriously bad news for all sides in a scuffle.

Torpedoes did have splash damage back in the early days when the number of hamsters could be tallied on one hand.
The additional calculations required for such a thing today with hundreds of people slapping each other at a time would bring the server to its knees on an hourly basis .. unless missiles were made so utterly fail as to be useless which is neither here nor there.


Splash would also mean more Concord incidents in highsec.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.10.04 04:44:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: OT Smithers
Assuming, as several posters here have suggested, that this "fix" makes rockets somewhat less laughable, and perhaps even somewhat close (yet still inferior)to the effectiveness of other frigate weapons...

How in the heck is this a fix? It's all well and good to duel on test against others looking to duel. In such an environment the biggest drawback of Caldari frigates -- their terrible slow speed -- can be ignored. On live it makes all the difference.

If you combine the slowest frigates, worst drone capacity, and a short range weapon that requires a web to work, then for f*ck's sake make the weapon brutally effective.


Can I get an Amen Brother Smithers.

He took the words out my mouth, with frigs speed=Life we proved that with the Dram, since Cald is slow as hell it`s bigger sig radius it damn well better have the highest in CLass DPS weapon ESP if we need a web, why not follow Torps example? Hitting still target thats big= 20% more base DPS than ACS.

If we are slow and since slots arent that much better meaning HP isnt much better than Minni and they both have Capless fire, what exactly does Cald have over a Minni frig? Say the rifter.


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