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Kozeck
Posted - 2010.09.27 16:21:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Kozeck on 27/09/2010 16:23:43
Quote:
Ok, firstly Akita's taken this thread and made it into a very useful newb guide from a certain perspective (tired so not communicating this well, but he's condensing lots of info here that sucks to learn the hard way). I feel like it should be stickied for sure.


/signed.



OK, so I've taken your advice and made a bunch of modifications. My Caracel is now fitted as follows:

[HIGH]
4x Assault Misile Launchers (Flameburst Missiles)
1x Salvager
(I'm also lugging around 4 more salvagers and 1 more assault launcher in my cargo bay so I can fly to a nearby station and swap them as needed).

[MED]
2x Large Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Booster I
10MN Afterburner I

[LOW]
Shield Power Relay I
Power Diagnostic System I (I had to put this in to make both large extenders fit)

With this fitting I've got 6300 shield with a 20/s recharge. I tried fitting in a flux coil and a few other items that help boost the recharge rate, but this fitting seems to get the best recharge rate and high shield rating.



Quote:
You need to COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SEPARATE in your mind mining from manufacturing.


The reason I was trying to fit in strip mining (aside from helping my corp) is to reduce the costs to produce items. If I stuck to highsec, I can get the most common ores for free. When I'm looking at some of the bigger things to make like ships, most of them require several hundred thousand (if not several million) of the common ores to produce. So I figured I could greatly increase my profit margins if I can farm the highsec mats myself and just have to worry about buying Megacyte and the other lowsec ores.

I did some number crunching on a few items and found that the items on the market are basically being sold at just above the market rate for the ore required to make it. So for a Rifter for example, it required 22k Trit, 6k Pyerite, and a handful of other highsec ores (2000 Mexallon being the biggest expense - that's 80k right there). If I tried to buy all that, it would run me upwards of 200-300k, not including the Zydrine and Megacyte that is needed. I see Rifters selling for 300k to almost 2 million depending on the system. Buying all the mats would cost me a huge chunk of isk, whereas spending a few days building the skills and mining them myself makes it way cheaper as I would only need to worry about getting 14 Zydrine and 1 Megacyte (which is about 5k isk total). That reduces my costs from 300k to 5k, which raises the profit margin by a tremendous amount.


Quote:
The goal is to only get just enough ISK to afford a brand new Drake and corresponding fit (DO NOT sell your Caracal, it's a good fallback ship, only consider selling it when you already have enough experience and confidence in using the Drake) as soon as possible and progress to L3 missions.


The problem there is that right now I'm sitting at just under 9 million ISK. The cheapest Drake I can see on the market is 24 million, and then all the fittings for it will probably cost several more million. And I need to put money aside for more implants and other things.

However I'm also only flying level 1 missions right now, and with the Caracel shown above I'm ripping everything apart so getting through the first 2 levels shouldn't be too bad.


As for mixing up the agents types, yeah I foobared that. After I posted that I spend a bunch of time reading the guides on agents posted in the forums and realized I got totally lost in it all lol :)

Limdood
Posted - 2010.09.27 16:50:00 - [32]
 

2 quick things to say:

#1 try to fit AT LEAST 1 "Ballistic Control System I" in one of your low slots (often abbreviated BCU for god only knows what reason). This will boost your missile damage AND missile rate of fire....the faster you do damage, the less you need to worry about your tank...(also, consider replacing the medium shield extender with an "invulnerability field I"...it will lower your hp/s recharge, but you'll take less damage, offsetting the loss).

#2, about your mining to lower costs for manufacturing. I see lots and lots of miners who mine minerals, then do manufacturing, and then try to tell me that those minerals were free. THOSE MINERALS AREN'T FREE! There is a "time cost" for minerals - basically, the cost of the time you spent mining them. To put it another way, lets say you mined 1 million ISK worth of ore. You refine it, and use that to make 50 modules that all sell for 10,000ISK each. You're telling yourself "hey thats great, i just sold 500,000 ISK worth of modules that cost nothing to make!" I tell you "but you could have sold the ore for 1 million ISK, so you really lost 500,000 ISK."

Make sense that way? If the items you're making don't SELL for more than the ore to make it SELLS for, then you shouldn't make the items. Instead, sell the ore and buy the items (if they're for you) and make a profit.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.27 19:30:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Kozeck
OK, so I've taken your advice and made a bunch of modifications. My Caracel is now fitted as follows:
4x Assault Misile Launchers (Flameburst Missiles)
1x Salvager
(I'm also lugging around 4 more salvagers and 1 more assault launcher in my cargo bay so I can fly to a nearby station and swap them as needed).

How about using 5x SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay instead, and hauling around 5 salvagers ? Wink
Oh, and you forgot to switch to Bloodclaw missiles.
The SV launchers are not *that* expensive (under 100k a piece in Jita), but they will offer noticeable better performance.
If you think they're too expensive, use "Compact 'Limos' Assault Missile Bay I" instead (bout 10k a piece in Jita), just not the basic T1 versions.

Quote:
2x Large Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Booster I
10MN Afterburner I

Here you also benefit from named module greatly.
The best named (meta 4) one, "Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction" costs around 158k a piece in Jita and offers 20% more extra shield HP compared to the basic T1 version.
If that's too expensive for you, the meta 3 version, "Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I" offers 15% more shield HP than the meta 0, basic T1 version, and only costs around 42k a piece in Jita (compared to the 23k or so for the meta 0 version you already have on).

Also, you DON'T NEED the shield booster. I understand the feeling you get that makes you want to keep the booster on, but it's really not much help in the long run.
Also, that medium shield extender is pointless. It adds too little shield HP on an already high HP total (only 40% of a single large, or barely over 14% of already existing shield HP).

Now that you take those two off, you can concentrate on fitting something more appropriate in those two slots... namely (for now) mission-specific shield resist amplifiers. You know, stuff like "Kinetic Deflection Amplifier I" and other in the same market group.
Putting two of those on (against the main damage type you encounter in a mission - the above mentioned ones would be great against Guristas which deal mostly kinetic damage) will slightly more than double your tanking power against that specific damage type... while doing nothing against other damage types.
Ideally, you will buy and train "Tactical Shield Manipulation" to L1 ASAP (leave it at L1 for now), since you already have the prerequisites anyway, and that will allow you to fit ACTIVE shield hardeners, like "Ballistic Deflection Field I". ONE of those will exactly double your tanking power against that damage type, two would mean an overall increase to *3.53 tank compared to the original unhardened one (not *4 because of the stack-nerfing effect).
And while we're on the matter of skills, buy and train Shield Management to at least L2 ASAP too. It won't take long, and it's more than worth it (it's like getting a free medium shield extender added to your fit for a couple of hours of skill training)

Quote:
Shield Power Relay I
Power Diagnostic System I (I had to put this in to make both large extenders fit)

For now, I suppose it's good. If you can find a cheap higher meta version of SPR, you might want to upgrade the meta 0 you are using now. Meta 4 is certainly a bit too expensive, but look at how much meta 2 or 3 cost, might be worth it.
You might also want to increase the level of "Shield Upgrades" a little more earlier, so you might be able to remove the PDS while still being able to make the fit, and replace it with a Ballistic Control System. DO NOT bother with a higher meta level BCS though, they are all way too expensive for minimal additional benefits.

You might also want to take a VERY small break from whatever it is you are training now and getting Rapid Launch, Target Navigation Prediction, Missile Bombardment and Missile Projection to at least L1, and at least the first two to L2. Shouldn't take long, but the end result will be noticeable.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.27 19:44:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 27/09/2010 19:58:05

Also, look at "Medium Core Defence Field Purger I" on the market.
They should cost somewhere around 3 mil a piece.
However, they EACH grant you *1.25 peak tanking power (so three of those will grant *1.95 total tanking power, nearly double of base).
They're not really worth using on a Caracal, but they will be EXTREMELY beneficial on your Drake.

Originally by: Kozeck
Quote:
You need to COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SEPARATE in your mind mining from manufacturing.
You can do both, but do not delude yourself for a single second that you have to only use stuff you mine (unless you want your manufacture lines to stay mostly idle) nor that stuff you mine yourself is worth any less than stuff you buy from the market.

The reason I was trying to fit in strip mining (aside from helping my corp) is to reduce the costs to produce items. If I stuck to highsec, I can get the most common ores for free. When I'm looking at some of the bigger things to make like ships, most of them require several hundred thousand (if not several million) of the common ores to produce. So I figured I could greatly increase my profit margins if I can farm the highsec mats myself and just have to worry about buying Megacyte and the other lowsec ores.
I did some number crunching on a few items and found that the items on the market are basically being sold at just above the market rate for the ore required to make it. So for a Rifter for example [...] That reduces my costs from 300k to 5k, which raises the profit margin by a tremendous amount.

Let's put it this way... you could be mining for one hour extracting minerals worth 3 mil ISK, or you could use that hour to run several L2 missions, getting 1.5 mil in bounties, 1 mil in loot and between half a mil and 1 mil in LP equivalent. If you turn all that loot and LP into ISK, you're probably going to have over 3 mil ISK. And you can use that ISK to just buy the minerals from the market, have some ISK leftovers while you also benefit from the increased standings and have less missions to run until a storyline is triggered.
Now... tell me... what would you rather have ?
And is it REALLY a higher profit margin on the Rifter, or is it just mining income you kid yourself into considering worthless ?
Yeah, sure, the ore WAS "free", in the sense that you paid no ISK to get it, but you paid for it in time you could have used to do something else that makes you more ISK, so it's certainly not worthless nor is it worth less than the price you see the corresponding minerals for on the market.


Quote:
Quote:
The goal is to only get just enough ISK to afford a brand new Drake and corresponding fit (DO NOT sell your Caracal, it's a good fallback ship, only consider selling it when you already have enough experience and confidence in using the Drake) as soon as possible and progress to L3 missions.

The problem there is that right now I'm sitting at just under 9 million ISK. The cheapest Drake I can see on the market is 24 million, and then all the fittings for it will probably cost several more million. And I need to put money aside for more implants and other things.

No, you DO NOT need to "put aside" any ISK for any other task, the Drake is your key to drastically higher income levels, and that comes first.
Money you spend on the Drake will be paying itself back in a very short time.

This MIGHT be one of those times when it would be best for yourself to just step on your own pride and ask corpmates for a little assistance.
You have two choices here : either ask for an ISK loan directly (not a very good form), or better still, ask for a loan of a Purger-rigged Drake (from somebody that has one but is not using it right now for some reason) until you can afford to buy one yourself or pay it back.
The latter means you don't have to train the rigging skills (only a few hours anyway) and signals your corpmates you're not a moocher but trying to pull your own weight.

Helen Hunts
Gallente
Red Dragon Mining inc
Red Dragon Industries
Posted - 2010.09.27 20:07:00 - [35]
 

As Akita said, get into a decently-fit Drake, THEN worry about other things to spend money on.

Fit properly, the Drake is *VERY* hard to lose. Ammo costs are cheap enough as well. The biggest expenses I've had with a Drake were usually accidents with T2 drones getting lost in some manner.

Once you've got a basic Drake setup, it only gets better with skills and better modules, making for faster mission completion, which means more ISK in wallet.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.28 04:38:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2010 04:45:02
Originally by: Helen Hunts
Fit properly, the Drake is *VERY* hard to lose.

With just-about-average skills but with a proper mission-specific hardener fit, the only L3 "regular" missions I would even consider to be able to kill you if you would be completely careless would be the one with the drone mothership (I don't remember how it's called) or a badly aggroed Blood Raider version of "The Blockade", featuring relatively heavy energy neutralisation, which would end up turning off your hardeners if you don't take care of the neutralizing soon enough. There's also the L3 storyline "Pirate Radio" or something like that, that could be trouble too if you don't move quite right.
Other than those, you're pretty much as good as impossible to kill in L3 missions if you use the proper hardeners.

Heh... in fact, with "proper tactics" (that is, set a wide orbit around some point in the middle of the mission space) and high skills plus tank-related implants, you could even go mostly-AFK (you only come back for a few seconds every 5 minutes or so to restart the launchers) while using FoF missiles in most L4 missions (except those with frigate spawn triggers, where it MIGHT get a bit odd) and still have relatively little problems surviving.

Kozeck
Posted - 2010.09.28 16:33:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Kozeck on 28/09/2010 16:42:22
Edited by: Kozeck on 28/09/2010 16:34:46
Edited by: Kozeck on 28/09/2010 16:34:12


All the edits are for spelling mistakes lol.

I undestand the concept of opportunity cost. I actually have taken several finance courses ;) But you need one of 2 things to produce anything in EVE: ISK, or Ore. Since I don't have the ISK, I have to rely on Ore. While the ISK cost is zero, it does cost time as you've all said. No biggie, I'm putting manufacturing on the back-burner for a bit.

So last night I made some modifications to my ship as follows:

[HIGH]
4x Compact 'Limos' Assault Missile Bay I (previously was just housing Assault Missile Launcher I)
1x Salvager I

[MED]
1x 10MN Afterburner
2x Large Shield Extender I
2x Shield Hardeners (see below)

[LOW]
1x Power Diagnostic System I
1x Shield Power Relay I

I think I can probably take out the diagnostic system and put something else in (suggestions?)

The 2 hardener slots I have left open. I bought a basic hardener for each damage type (50% damage reduction). I ran a few missions last night and I was able to keep both hardeners running and my cap was stable. I still suck my cap dry when I turn on the afterburner, but it makes salvaging things go faster when I can get to them sooner.

I've also bought 3 missile types that I keep on hand (Kinetic, Thermal, and Explosive). I'm going to grab EM missiles as well and swap as needed.

I also found out about eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MissionReports last night, which was really helpful in finding out which shield hardeners and which missiles to take into each mission.

Another thing I did was buy a bunch of missile skill books and started training them this morning, specifically Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Target Navigation Prediction, and Missile Bombardment. I've queued them to all train to level 2 for now, as I'm still trying to get the last of my learning skills to level 4.

The last thing I did was fly to a bunch of stations that I've left loot at over the past week and liquidated it all. That (along with the few missions I ran last night), brought me up to 14 million ISK. I'm almost at the half way mark for buying a Drake.

Questions:

1) Where can I find the formula for missile damage? I'm trying to figure out how it all works and such, and I'm pretty sure I saw it posted somewhere.

2) The biggest problem I have right now are EWAR mobs. Specifically the very fast moving frigates that web me. I ran a mission last night where I had two of them webbing me, I slowed to a whopping 16m/s at full speed. And they were moving so fast that my missiles were inflicting very minimal damage on them (took about 50 missiles to kill each one).

One solution I came up with was using Drones, but with a Caracel I can only have 2 light drones so I'm keeping 2 light scout drones. But I'm only using them in the above situation because I find they die really fast if I keep them out for the rest of the mission (last night I lost about 10 drones lol).

3) Right now I have most of the learning skills at Level 4 (Empathy, Iron Will, and Spatial Awareness are sitting at 3, but are queued). At this point should I suck up the cost of the skillbooks for the next set of learning skills, or should I focus on saving up for the Drake and the skills to fly it and worry about the next learning skills after that point?

Current Skills: http://eveboard.com/pilot/Kozeck

Thanks again!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.28 21:37:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2010 21:56:14
Originally by: Kozeck
4x Compact 'Limos' Assault Missile Bay I (previously was just housing Assault Missile Launcher I)
1x Salvager I
[...]
The 2 hardener slots I have left open. I bought a basic hardener for each damage type (50% damage reduction). I ran a few missions last night and I was able to keep both hardeners running and my cap was stable. I still suck my cap dry when I turn on the afterburner, but it makes salvaging things go faster when I can get to them sooner.

A typical mission-runner will have two ships, one for running the mission, the second for looting and salvaging.
You only loot and/or salvage with your regular mission ship if the ship has extra highslots that CAN'T be used to deal more damage to the enemy.
You're basically giving up a nearly 25% DPS increase (the 5th launcher, not quite +25% DPS because you have some minor drone DPS too) which could very well mean you run missions significantly faster (enemy NPCs repair themselves too, so if your DPS is close to their average tanking power, even a tiny increase in your output DPS can mean a drastic improvement in mission completion speed).
I would suggest removing that salvager ASAP and using a 5th launcher. If you want to loot/salvage, buy a Cormorant (the Destroyers skill is relatively cheap and you only need it at L1 anyway for this purpose). You now have 8 slots to fill with any combination of Small Tractor Beam I and Salvager I you wish to use. This will drastically improve your loot/salvage times.

Quote:
I think I can probably take out the diagnostic system and put something else in (suggestions?)

Either a second SPR if you need more tank (but compromise your capacitor even more), or a Ballistic Control System I. It has already been mentioned above.
Quote:
I've also bought 3 missile types that I keep on hand (Kinetic, Thermal, and Explosive). I'm going to grab EM missiles as well and swap as needed.

As soon as the relevant kinetic-damage-bonus skill hits L4 ("Caldari Cruiser" for a Caracal, "Battlecruisers" for a Drake) you might as well only keep EM and Kinetic missile ammo since the difference in effective DPS with exp/therm will be minimal. You still have it at L2, so for now that's ok to keep all types of missiles.

Quote:
Another thing I did was buy a bunch of missile skill books and started training them this morning, specifically Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Target Navigation Prediction, and Missile Bombardment. I've queued them to all train to level 2 for now, as I'm still trying to get the last of my learning skills to level 4.

L2 will do fine for now, but you'll want them all eventually to L4. You might also want to consider Guided Missile Precision soon, but that needs Missile Launcher Operation to L4 as a prerequisite. It's worth getting it though. After you're done with L4 in learnings, that is.

Quote:
1) Where can I find the formula for missile damage? I'm trying to figure out how it all works and such, and I'm pretty sure I saw it posted somewhere.

If you really want to know the actual missile damage formula : Linkage
However, the practical applications of that formula are pretty straightforward and don't really need much understanding of the actual formula... since it's all quite simple. In MOST cases, the following things apply :
* larger missile explosion velocity good (so train "Target Navigation Prediction")
* slower enemies good (so use a web on them)
* smaller missile explosion radius good (so train "Guided Missile Precision" - does sadly NOT apply to rockets, heavy assault missiles nor torpedoes, you can never lower their explosion radius with anything)
* larger enemy signature good (so use a target painter on them)

There are also implants and rigs that offer similar effects to the mentioned skills (+some ships have such bonuses), but for now, just focus on the skills.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.28 21:53:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Kozeck
2) The biggest problem I have right now are EWAR mobs. Specifically the very fast moving frigates that web me. I ran a mission last night where I had two of them webbing me, I slowed to a whopping 16m/s at full speed. And they were moving so fast that my missiles were inflicting very minimal damage on them (took about 50 missiles to kill each one).
One solution I came up with was using Drones, but with a Caracel I can only have 2 light drones so I'm keeping 2 light scout drones. But I'm only using them in the above situation because I find they die really fast if I keep them out for the rest of the mission (last night I lost about 10 drones lol).

See answers to your first question directly above for some hints on how to kill those faster. Also, that 5th launcher would help a lot, since you're probably just about breaking them, so adding that little extra DPS would drastically reduce kill-time.

As for drones... FIRST, make sure YOU got aggro (the enemy has you locked and shoots at you), only THEN you launch drones to attack those. Regular mission NPCs will never switch targets, so your drones are safe. If you're aggroing groups separately, make sure your drones attack NPCs from the currently aggroed group that are as far away as possible from non-aggroed groups. As soon as drones start taking ANY damage whatsoever, recall them immediately and let them sit docked for a few seconds before launching them again. Whenever a new wave of enemies arrives (in missions that have waves), ALWAYS redock your drones too for a while, until you gain aggro.
Follow those rules and you should almost never lose a drone again.

All of this becomes even more important later on for the Drake, since there you really want to use heavy missiles, which are noticeably worse against smaller targets, so those missile support skills come in really handy, and also, you don't want to lose any drones either during a mission, since that would also decrease the effectiveness//speed of killing those pesky small NPCs.

Quote:
3) Right now I have most of the learning skills at Level 4 (Empathy, Iron Will, and Spatial Awareness are sitting at 3, but are queued). At this point should I suck up the cost of the skillbooks for the next set of learning skills, or should I focus on saving up for the Drake and the skills to fly it and worry about the next learning skills after that point?

Get a Drake first. It will let you make ISK a lot faster afterwards. The advanced learning skills wouldn't.

Oh, by the way, while you're still pondering a remap (so as long as you still have moderate level of base charisma, which you will almost certainly drop from 7 to 5 on your next remap), you might want to get Connections and Negotiations up to L3, and maybe even Social up to L4.
Social lets your base standings increase more per completed mission, Connections constantly and instantly boosts your effective standings a certain (skill-level-dependant) percentage towards maximum from your current base value, and Negotiations indirectly increases the ISK/LP rewards at the end of the mission by boosting the effective agent quality by +5 for each level (so basically, around +5% of base level reward at end-of-mission rewards per level - which can be more or less than 5% of actual present mission rewards depending on base agent quality ; effect of this skill only kicks in for newly requested missions, so you won't see the rewards of missions you have already requested go up when you train it, but next identical mission will have higher rewards - this is not that important for low-level missions, but for L3 and especially L4 missions, that is quite a noticeable change).

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.28 22:14:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2010 22:36:30

A few more words about the capacitor usage and your fit.

The afterburner is nice to have (since speed also helps reduce some enemy damage dealt to you, especially from larger enemies in higher level missions) but not absolutely necessary (especially in lower-level missions where most enemies are smaller and will deal near-full damage anyway) since you also will most likely be using a separate ship to do the looting/salvaging.
If you choose to keep the afterburner (instead of using that slot to either improve your tank further or maybe increase effective damage potential by either using a web or a target painter), and especially if you also add more SPRs to your fit instead of BCSs (this is muc more valid for the Drake where you have 4 lowslots, but it applies to the Caracal and its 2 lowslots too), you might also want to focus on capacitor-related skills.

Just like shields (where you have shield op and shield management) which have a similar recharge curve (both shields and cap recharge at about *2.5 of the average recharge rate when around 30% of max, and recharge much slower than the average when nearly full or nearly depleted), the capacitor also has two skills that boost its average recharge rate : energy systems operation and energy management. And in both cases, the more helpful skill (for a PvE player anyway, the situation is reversed for PvP) is the rank 1 skill, so try to keep the rank 1 skill at the same level or one higher compared to the rank 3 skill (not two levels higher since thanks to SP totals needed that makes the higher-rank skill trained one level extra more effective, SP-wise).

Also, you want to look at the skills that decrease capacitor usage of power-hungry modules.

The afterburner can be reduced to minimal power consumption levels by two skills, the prerequisite skill ("Afterburner") and a second one ("Fuel Conservation").
Both at L4 combined will reduce your afterburner's capacitor consumption to about half of usual "starter level" consumption, and much less with both at L5 (but that's something for much later on). For the first skill, the former levels are more useful than the latter, for the second skill the latter levels are more useful than the former (if you neglect SP cost and focus just on capacitor savings).
Getting them both to L3 (or at least to L2 minimum ASAP) is a must-have if you plan on using afterburners on most passive shield tanked ships.

If you decide to use webs or target painters, the skills that enable their use also decrease their power consumption, but the reduction is not very drastic and they use little capacitor to begin with.
Shield hardeners sadly have no skills to decrease their capacitor consumption.
HOWEVER, all those modules have something in common : higher metalevel versions usually consume less capacitor/second on average than their basic T1 versions. They do so either by reduced activation cost or by longer cycle time for same activation cost.
So again, higher metalevel can help here too, especially on a very tight fit. Although, watch your wallet, some can be quite expensive (while others are a real bargain).


SUGGESTED FIT FOR YOUR CARACAL:

5x SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay (Bloodclaw Light Missile)

2x Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
2x Non-Inertial Ballistic Screen Augmentation I
1x Ditrigonal Thermal Barrier Crystallization I

Ballistic Control System I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I

Hornet I x2


That is a fit tuned to be used against Guristas enemies. For other enemies, change hardeners.
At your current skill levels, it offers a peak tank of 88 incoming typical Guristas DPS, and an average damage output of 72 DPS.
At max relevant skills, that exact same fit gives you a 124 DPS tank and a 123 DPS output.
Of course, at max skills, you can tweak it much further than that with better cheap (T2) mods and (relatively cheap) rigs for much better DPS.
NOTE : DPS = Damage Per Second

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2010.09.28 22:39:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kozeck
OK, so I've taken your advice and made a bunch of modifications. My Caracel is now fitted as follows:
4x Assault Misile Launchers (Flameburst Missiles)
1x Salvager
(I'm also lugging around 4 more salvagers and 1 more assault launcher in my cargo bay so I can fly to a nearby station and swap them as needed).

How about using 5x SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay instead, and hauling around 5 salvagers ? Wink
Oh, and you forgot to switch to Bloodclaw missiles.
The SV launchers are not *that* expensive (under 100k a piece in Jita), but they will offer noticeable better performance.
If you think they're too expensive, use "Compact 'Limos' Assault Missile Bay I" instead (bout 10k a piece in Jita), just not the basic T1 versions.

Quote:
2x Large Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Extender I
Medium Shield Booster I
10MN Afterburner I

Here you also benefit from named module greatly.
The best named (meta 4) one, "Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction" costs around 158k a piece in Jita and offers 20% more extra shield HP compared to the basic T1 version.
If that's too expensive for you, the meta 3 version, "Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I" offers 15% more shield HP than the meta 0, basic T1 version, and only costs around 42k a piece in Jita (compared to the 23k or so for the meta 0 version you already have on).

Also, you DON'T NEED the shield booster. I understand the feeling you get that makes you want to keep the booster on, but it's really not much help in the long run.
Also, that medium shield extender is pointless. It adds too little shield HP on an already high HP total (only 40% of a single large, or barely over 14% of already existing shield HP).



if any of that stuff is too expensive join Free Wrecks in game and go loot/salvage a few lv 4 missions. you shouldn't have to worry about isk for a week after that Wink

buy yourself a few caracals all with arbalest assault missile launchers (~500k in jita)

and train weapon upgrades to 4, for tech 2 bcus, because they are awesomesauce

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.28 22:53:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
and train weapon upgrades to 4, for tech 2 bcus, because they are awesomesauce

Not to forget the skill also has the added benefit of not just letting you equip T2 damage mods, but also reducing CPU use of weapons... and missile launchers are quite CPU-hungry to begin with, so that certainly helps too.
It's a rank 2 skill, so at your (the OP) current attribute/implant/learning values, it might take a while to get to L4, but it's quite useful and well worth in the long run.

Kozeck
Posted - 2010.09.30 16:21:00 - [43]
 

Quote:
A typical mission-runner will have two ships, one for running the mission, the second for looting and salvaging.

You only loot and/or salvage with your regular mission ship if the ship has extra highslots that CAN'T be used to deal more damage to the enemy...


I tried it out and it did go way faster. I fitted a 5th assault launcher onto my Caracel and it goes through missions faster for sure. I then bought a Cormorant and fitted it with 4 salvagers and 2 tractor beams, an afterburner and a MWD. It certainly makes a huge difference when you can just fly in and pull all the wrecks to you while you salvage the others.

Quote:
If you really want to know the actual missile damage formula...


The reason I asked is because I want to see what I can do to cheaply and quickly improve my missile damage before I work about the long-term / high-cost stuff. Thanks for the linky, that helps :)

Quote:
There are also implants and rigs that offer similar effects to the mentioned skills (+some ships have such bonuses), but for now, just focus on the skills.


That was going to be my next question. The guides I see all say to get the Rigor rigs, which reduce your missile signature radius by a large amount - does that mean higher damage to smaller ships when you fire a heavy/cruise missile?

Last night I checked the market and found almost all the rigging skill books for really cheap, bought them all for like 60k each. Trained to Jury Rigging III last night and then queued all them to level 1. I doubt I'll use all those skils, but they each only take like 10 mins to train so 2 hours worth of training skills that might be useful in the near future I figured I'd give it a go.

Quote:
As for drones... FIRST, make sure YOU got aggro (the enemy has you locked and shoots at you), only THEN you launch drones to attack those. Regular mission NPCs will never switch targets, so your drones are safe.


I tested that last night, and you are dead on. Very interesting. So now I just fly my Caracel into a swarm and wait for them all to lock me, then I let the drones loose. Haven't lost a single drone in the 100ish npc's I killed last night in missions.

Quote:
Get a Drake first. It will let you make ISK a lot faster afterwards. The advanced learning skills wouldn't.


Alrighty. I actually have a corp mate that said he would build one for me, so hopefully he pulls through. I should be pretty close to flying a Drake this morning (skill wise anyways), can't check since the server is offline.

Quote:
Oh, by the way, while you're still pondering a remap (so as long as you still have moderate level of base charisma, which you will almost certainly drop from 7 to 5 on your next remap), you might want to get Connections and Negotiations up to L3, and maybe even Social up to L4.


I got Connections up to 2, and that made a huge difference in my missions. That threw me into Level 2 missions, so I can certainly see the value of it. I also have Negotiation at 2 and I think Social at 2 presently. I'll work on them after I have higher combat skills.

Quote:

SUGGESTED FIT FOR YOUR CARACAL:

5x SV-2000 Assault Missile Bay (Bloodclaw Light Missile)

2x Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
2x Non-Inertial Ballistic Screen Augmentation I
1x Ditrigonal Thermal Barrier Crystallization I

Ballistic Control System I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I

Hornet I x2



I'll try and work towards that. Right now my current setup is:

5x Limos Assault Missiel Bay
2x Shield Hardener (changed to suit the mission)
2x Large Shield Extender I
1x ECM Module (probably gonna toss this. Fun to play with, but I think I could make more use with something else here)
1x Power Diagnostic System I (apparently I need this in to keep both extenders on)
1x Shield Flux Coil or whatever it's called that improves shield regeneration
2x Acolyte I drones (mainly because I've looted like 30 of these little buggers)

Kozeck
Posted - 2010.09.30 16:23:00 - [44]
 

-continued


Quote:
if any of that stuff is too expensive join Free Wrecks in game and go loot/salvage a few lv 4 missions. you shouldn't have to worry about isk for a week after that


I was going to try that out last night after I got my salvage ship setup, but then my internet crashed. Came back on this morning and the server is offline :(

Thanks again folks, this info is extremely useful!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.09.30 23:22:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2010 23:35:35
Originally by: Kozeck
Quote:
There are also implants and rigs that offer similar effects to the mentioned skills (+some ships have such bonuses), but for now, just focus on the skills.

That was going to be my next question. The guides I see all say to get the Rigor rigs, which reduce your missile signature radius by a large amount - does that mean higher damage to smaller ships when you fire a heavy/cruise missile?
Last night I checked the market and found almost all the rigging skill books for really cheap, bought them all for like 60k each. Trained to Jury Rigging III last night and then queued all them to level 1. I doubt I'll use all those skils, but they each only take like 10 mins to train so 2 hours worth of training skills that might be useful in the near future I figured I'd give it a go.

Yup, rigor rigs will decrease the explosion radius of "guided" missiles (light missiles, heavy missiles and cruise missiles), just like the Guided Missile Precision skill.
That will increase damage potential significantly against smaller//faster vessels where you are not dealing anywhere close to full damage, and have the potential to switch between the three "zones" applied from the missile damage formula to get in a more favourable damage calculation subcategory. Eh, complicated, let's just say "it's good".
The ZMA implant series also does that (reduce explosion radius).
None of those (skill, rig, implant) have any effect on "unguided" missiles (it's just a word describing the class that rockets, heavy assault missiles and torpedoes belongs to).

The ZMS implant series, the Target Navigation Prediction skill and the flare rigs improve missile explosion velocity. That applies to all missiles, not just "guided" ones.
These tend to have a larger value for the bonus (especially the skill), so which ones you should use is highly situational. In some cases it might help a bit, or it might help a lot. It's a bit more complicated.
Long story short, overall, if you have to make the choice, it might be a better idea to use the explosion radius reduction methods instead... unless you know for sure this is one of those special cases where this helps more, or if you plan to use unguided missiles (in which case the others are useless).


HOWEVER, in a lot of cases, other rigs are more useful.
For instance, in the case of a Drake, purger rigs, which heavily decrease your shield recharge time, which results in an even larger increase in maximum peak passive tanking potential (a -20% recharge time reduction translates into a +25% peak tank power... and it's MULTIPLICATIVE, not additive, and not affected by any stack-nerfs... so the more you pile on, the better the results in terms of tanking power of each subsequent module or rig that reduces shield recharge time will be).


Training the rigging skills has only two uses : it allows YOU to fit the rigs to a ship, and it reduces the penalty for having the rigs on... for those rigs that do have a penalty attached, which is most of them.
Sometimes you don't care that much about the penalty anyway - like, say, the purger rig penalty, which is an increase in your own signature radius -- yes, you'll take a bit more damage from the larger enemies, but you were probably already taking near-full damage from them anyway, and the heavily increased tank power more than compensates for that.
Still, it doesn't hurt to bring the skill to L4 anyway... eventually. No hurry though.

You CAN fly a ship rigged by somebody else and get full benefit from the fitted rigs without even having any of the rigging skills trained.
You just suffer the full penalty value (if any exists, that is - for instance CCC rigs don't have any penalties).
You can always train the rigging skills later on to get reduced penalties, but you don't absolutely need to have them.
Who rigs the ship and what his skills are is irrelevant, only current skills of current user matter when determining penalties.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.10.01 19:14:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 26/09/2010 08:55:04
Originally by: Malcanis
Missiles only care about absolute velocity.


I really hate how EVE manages to mangle some of the finer details of physics. Like the fact that there's no such thing as an "absolute velocity", especially not in space...


Ernst Mach would like a word with you...

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2010.10.01 19:59:00 - [47]
 

I'd like to point out a couple things, while avoiding another text wall:

Missiles care about both absolute velocity and vehicle radius. Roughly, consider three numbers:

(Ship Radius)/(Explosion Radius)
1
{(Explosion Velocity)/(velocity) * (radius)/(explosion radius)} ^ (k*explosion radius factor)

Whichever of the three is lowest is applied as a multiplier to your damage. The explosion radius factor is missile-based and skill-alterable (larger for larger missiles), and a ship's signature radius is increased by MWD to a significant degree.

So you're probably doing more damage at range due to NPC frigs using MWD.

Kozeck
Posted - 2010.10.03 17:00:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Kozeck on 03/10/2010 17:12:31


Edited for spelling mistakes

Good news, I finally finished the skill training required for Drake, and I managed to find a Drake on the market for 20 million (cheapest I've seen till then was 24 million). So I bought it. It broke my wallet (I had like 200k left after lol), but I got it. Until I have more ISK pilled up, I've moved my Caracel fitting to it, but added 2 heavy launchers since I had them sitting at a station with some heavy missiles.

Current setup:

DRAKE

[HIGH]
5x Compact 'Limos' Assault Missile Bay I
2x Heavy Missile Launcher 1
1 slot free, suggestions? Can't be a turret or missile launcher

[MED]
1x Photon Scattering Field
1x Ditrigional Thermal Barrier
1x Ballastic Deflection Field I
1x Explosion Dampening Field I
2x Large Shiled Extender I

[LOW]
1x Shield Power Relay I
1x Power Diagnostic System I

[RIG]
None

Shield: 9587 (regens 28/second)
Armor: 4101
Hull: 4491
Total: 19809 effective hp

CPU: 534/603.75
PowerGrid: 739/1026.38

PILOT: eveboard.com/pilot/Kozeck

Note: I'm focusing on frigate V right now because I would like to try PvPing soon and it seems frigates are the way to go, and my corp runs a lot of missions and lets newbies like me go along if we can tackle, so I'm working my way into those skills for a bit. I also wanna be able to fly a covert ops frigate, which required Frigate V :)

I know it's kinda silly putting 1 of each shield hardener on, but it saves me swapping them out each mission. But I'd be happy to take 2 out and start swapping again if somebody could recommend good med slot replacement items. I did consider putting an invulnerability field, but it sucks way more cap and only gives half the benefit of each, which seems not worth it to me.

What I would like is some kind of speed boost, the Drake is slow as hell. Right now I top out at about 110m/s. Aside from an Afterburner or MWD, is there any other equipment I could put in that would increase speed? I know the Navigation skill would also improve speed, which I'll work on eventually too.

Quote:
For instance, in the case of a Drake, purger rigs, which heavily decrease your shield recharge time, which results in an even larger increase in maximum peak passive tanking potential (a -20% recharge time reduction translates into a +25% peak tank power... and it's MULTIPLICATIVE, not additive, and not affected by any stack-nerfs... so the more you pile on, the better the results in terms of tanking power of each subsequent module or rig that reduces shield recharge time will be).


So in the case of my Drake, would I be better of fitting it with those 25% shield regen rigs? Or something else?

Quote:
Training the rigging skills has only two uses : it allows YOU to fit the rigs to a ship, and it reduces the penalty for having the rigs on...


How much does it reduce the penalty by?



A couple of other questions:

When you put a MWD onto your ship, does your ship suffer the signature penalty while it's equipped or only while the MWD is actually being used?

I think I'm going to stick with the Drake for the time being for mission running (from the sounds of it I can use it through L3 missions, and I'm only on L2 missions right now, so I've got some time before I need to worry about upgrading). With that in mind, aside from the missile and shield skills, what other skills should I focus on to get the most out of my Drake?

What drones go best with a Drake for mission running? Right now I'm using 2 light scout drones (only have Drones 2 right now), but the Drake has 25 m/3 drone storage and 25 drone bandwidth. So should I aim for 5 light drones, or focus on a few heavier drones? Also - would it be better to focus on combat drones or go for ECM or other types?


Thanks again :)

Kozeck
Posted - 2010.10.03 17:27:00 - [49]
 

Also - I did my first remap today :)

I dropped 2 points in Charisma to gain a point in Will Power and Perception (trying to speed up starship skills). This immediately dropped my learning from for Caldary Frigate V from 6D 20H to 6D 9H. Think I'm gonna try and hunt down better implants in the next few days when I have more ISK.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2010.10.04 06:07:00 - [50]
 

SIDE-NOTE: You might want to reread some of this thread, a bit more carefully this time, since you ask some questions that were already answered.


You should only focus on L5 skills when you already have a halfway decent ISK generating base. Right now you're still struggling to barely make a living yet you're training for something not of immediate use (frigate 5). Not a very good idea.

You can still pull it off with a "one of each hardener" setup for now (since I assume you're still running L2s), but in L3s, you'll want mission-specific hardeners.

Yes, on a mission-running Drake, by far the best choice is 3x Purger rig.

5 light drones is what you want to use on a Drake or any other ship with 25 m^3 bandwidth.

Last highslot, depends... tractor beam (to pull in mission objective cargo or cherry-pick loot), salvager (if you're around and shooting already might as well leave less wrecks around) or auto targeter (NOT to use actively, but for the extra targets bonus - although you won't see a benefit before you learn the skill Multitasking, so not that useful for you right now).

You don't really need to be very fast in a Drake, since you have ample range (at least later on, after you fully switch to heavies and train more missile support skills). You can still use an afterburner if you like (it only really helps against BS-sized NPCs), but it will have less of an effect compared to the same one on a Caracal, speed-wise. Just face it, a Drake is not really built for speed.
Suggestions for stuff that would be useful in midslots were already made, the most relevant ones would be either target painters or webs.

You still have two unused lowslots.
Shove in two ballistic control systems first chance you get. T1 or T2, do not bother with meta 1-4 versions, too expensive.


As for the remap... ummm... not such a great move either, if that's ALL you did, taking 2 points from charisma away. That's negligible.
You only get two remaps without a time limit. The third remap has to be one FULL year after your second remap. So whatever your next remap will be, you'll be stuck with those base attributes for one full year.
Since you half-wasted your first free remap, there's very little room for any additional carelessness. You'll have to be VERY careful with your next remap.
Get EVE-Mon if you haven't already (I don't think you did) and make a longer skillplan (one that will last AT LEAST one full year, preferably longer), see what suggested attributes you get. I'm willing to bet it will suggest very high perception and relatively high intelligence and probably a bit of memory, most likely with willpower and charisma both at minimum.


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