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Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.21 21:38:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 21/09/2010 21:57:20
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Elementatia
P.S. Maybe its possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?

This is something that has always annoyed me, and it's on my list of things to discuss in December to see if there is a workaround that will ease the pain. If it turns out not to be reasonably doable, at the very least a good explanation of the reasons why should be communicated to the players.
Add some yellow to the icon and make it green. :p

But yeah.. Green for BPO, blue for BPC... or vs. versa.


Also, to any of the CSM that are still reading this thread:

That list you guys have on the wiki... MANY of the items on that list have been addressed or are plain absurd.

If you guys are going to use that as a tool or weapon, please have someone in charge of keeping the votes and issues up-to-date.

The "increase bomb damage" one is a laugh. That should be re-voted, reviewed and removed imo. Bombs are fine.

Each "month" maybe... CSM should have a list they vote on and only the current CSM should be voting on them. Past CSM are no longer in office and were voted off for a reason... Seeing names like, Ankhesentapemkah, Jade Constantine, Hardin and a few others on MOST of the issues would just tell CCP that the CSM isn't doing their job.


my two cents.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.22 11:59:00 - [92]
 

Hi Zagdul,

For the most part, the points you see listed on the Wiki are ideas brought up by the user community at large via the Assembly Hall. These points have garnered enough support from the player base as a whole to attract the attention of a CSM representative who has put the vote forward. If there is a particular item that you feel should be amended or removed, please feel free to put forward a counter proposal and lobby your CSM representatives.

As far as keeping the Wiki up to date, I do believe Mynxee, Trebor and Diedra have commented on this very point citing their efforts on updating the very information brought up; if you notice points which need tweaking it would be a great help if you let them know. Being part of the CSM is a huge job and our dear representatives are human.

As for seeing "old names" on past issues, those members were part of the CSM at the time of their vote. This has nothing to do with anyone not doing their job but is a simple matter of archived records. Would you propose that ex-members have their votes removed and their work put aside? I do not think so.

Thanks for your feedback, and fly safe-er! YARRRR!!

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.22 12:16:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/09/2010 12:18:02
As far as I know, no procedures exist to remove a previously approved proposal. And tbh, I don't think that is needed at all.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that anyone other than the current CSM vote on issues. In fact, if you look at the meeting minutes you see exactly that (CSM + alts when needed). Names of previous CSM members are on the issues because when those issues were up for vote, they were CSM members. It's a matter of record keeping. If you mean the CSM should go through all the 300+ historic issues every month (or even once per term), you're just plain pants-on-head crazy.

As for the bomb issue, there's no such issue except the general bomb improvements issue - where increasing their damage was only one of the possible solutions. This proposal was made before bombs were used much (back in may 2008 they still cost several millions each) and is the cause of bombs becoming cheaper (which you will notice is another suggestion in that issue). As such, the issue has been marked 'Resolved'.

We do our best to keep the wiki up to date and mark all resolved issues as resolved. I believe this has been done for CSM1 and 3, but 2 and 4 are still undergoing these updates. If you find an issue that has been resolved but isn't marked as such (or has been incorrectly marked as resolved), just let one of us know :)

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.22 12:47:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 22/09/2010 12:58:42
Edited by: Zagdul on 22/09/2010 12:53:34
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
response...
The reason I say that the current CSM's vote is important is that the previous group is no longer in "office" and as the game of EVE Online changes, as does the user base and the opinion of what are important issues that need addressing.

Simply linking a list of many things that need addressing can most certainly just add to problems rather than focus on issues that are either a) a primary concern for the user base b) a serious game breaking issue that should have higher priority for the players or c) something that CCP should be made aware of but may not know.

Examples which are being addressed:
A) Rockets
B) WH/sploit/mechanic
C) Module lag during fleet fights

The list that gets linked seems to be done so as a weapon and labled a backlog that just gets thrown into CCP's face. It annoys me because after clicking through a lot of those issues, they have an overwhelming "Yes" vote for issues that in many people's opinion would seem absurd or nitpicking. Furthermore, many of those "backlogged" items are fixed or non-issues... Bombs for example. They do fine damage, yet the proposal on that wiki is asking for more? Have you ever been bombarded by a fleet of stealthbombers?


Another example, the first on the list making it easy to find one... : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0_sovereignty_%28CSM%29

This is an issue sov suggestion issue, that has a linked 2 page thread from 2008. It further fails to discuss possible post dominion ideas. IMO, this "issue" which is being labeled by the CSM as a "backlog" should be removed or updated.

What I'm getting at is that the current CSM who was elected into office by it's peers should keep a running tally of the issues which they feel are important and a private (they don't discuss/share their vote with other candidates) survey they do monthly. I'm no web pro, but I'm sure that the CSM could come up with a more updated list than that on the wiki with some form of process that keeps the items up for review periodically.

When you guys work on a blog and put your name on it, but add the line of: "And yet, there was still the problem of the backlog.", that backlog should be consistent with issues that still need addressing or have solutions suggested to fix the issues that are still current. Putting that line in is very confrontational towards CCP in my opinion.

Narrow that list down a bit and maybe have a new page for "solved CSM issues" (shoulda read your whole post) and move stuff off that page. Also, by having that long ass list, how the hell is CCP supposed to get to the bottom of anything? You want to get things fixed and feel that you as a CSM rep have done something to improve this game. Well, streamline that list and give CCP solutions or consolidated problems, not a list of things that got posted on a forum. If you are going to have that "backlog", at least have a "high priority" page.

Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.22 13:16:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 22/09/2010 13:21:30
we have a page that only includes issues in process (the 'backlog' if you will). it is this one

you can find all CSM related categories here

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.22 14:30:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 22/09/2010 14:31:22
Originally by: Zagdul

The reason I say that the current CSM's vote is important is that the previous group is no longer in "office" and as the game of EVE Online changes, as does the user base and the opinion of what are important issues that need addressing.


I think maybe you're getting confused; the previous CSM members do not vote on current issues brought up by the current CSM. Any notes you see referencing old CSM members has to do with their votes at a previous date during previous meetings. They do not have any say in the operations or decisions of the current CSM.

I agree that the game does change as does the user base but I what I'm reading here seems to indicate that you would advocate previous CSM issues being put on to the "back burner" if you will, because an issue was raised by a previous council. I'm sorry, but that's insane... for a few reasons, but the big one being that issues which do not get resolved in the current council are simply "pushed off". In my opinion, this is 100% ineffective and sets up a cycle where nothing gets done, because "they're no longer in office". These are commitments, not flavours of the month.


Originally by: Zagdul

Simply linking a list of many things that need addressing can most certainly just add to problems rather than focus on issues that are either a) a primary concern for the user base b) a serious game breaking issue that should have higher priority for the players or c) something that CCP should be made aware of but may not know.

Examples which are being addressed:
A) Rockets
B) WH/sploit/mechanic
C) Module lag during fleet fights



Again, the issues raised by previous CSM members were "a primary concern for the user base" at the time. Proposals in the Assembly Hall are "voted" on by the player base at large and it is these issues with high support that the CSM takes a look at. These suggestions are over and above that which CCP wishes to/needs to deal with, such as exploits or performance. This covers your points b) and c).

Originally by: Zagdul

The list that gets linked seems to be done so as a weapon and labled a backlog that just gets thrown into CCP's face. It annoys me because after clicking through a lot of those issues, they have an overwhelming "Yes" vote for issues that in many people's opinion would seem absurd or nitpicking. Furthermore, many of those "backlogged" items are fixed or non-issues... Bombs for example. They do fine damage, yet the proposal on that wiki is asking for more? Have you ever been bombarded by a fleet of stealthbombers?



Zagdul, Dierdra already clarified the "bombs need a boost" point... If you would take five seconds to actually read the wiki article that you're upset about, you would notice this:

Categories: CSM Submission | CSM First Candidacy | Resolved Issues

See where it says "Resolved Issues"? That means it's done, fini, wan-chen... pick your language of choice, it means the same thing. Again, if you feel an issue is "absurd" or "nitpicking", the way to address that concern is via the Assembly Hall or Jita Park forums. I'm sorry that you feel that specific issues do not match your beliefs but please remember, these are things the players voiced their opinions on in much the same way as you are doing now. This is not an arbitrary list that CSM members decided to put forward one night: "LOL guyz, let's put X Y Z forward and lol to Iceland and back!". Sorry to bust the warp-bubble here.


Originally by: Zagdul

Another example, the first on the list making it easy to find one... : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0_sovereignty_%28CSM%29

This is an issue sov suggestion issue, that has a linked 2 page thread from 2008. It further fails to discuss possible post dominion ideas. IMO, this "issue" which is being labeled by the CSM as a "backlog" should be removed or updated.
Quote:


[cont]

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.22 14:43:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 22/09/2010 14:43:59
I'll agree on this point; it does need some work and TLC.


Originally by: Zagdul

What I'm getting at is that the current CSM who was elected into office by it's peers should keep a running tally of the issues which they feel are important and a private (they don't discuss/share their vote with other candidates) survey they do monthly. I'm no web pro, but I'm sure that the CSM could come up with a more updated list than that on the wiki with some form of process that keeps the items up for review periodically.



A few points here, so I'll address them one by one:

- Regarding the "running tally" and "not discussing/sharing votes with other candidates".... What in-space are you talking about? The whole point of the CSM is to have an open and transparent advocacy group between the player base and the fine folks at CCP. Would you be proposing that the CSM keep its work from the public? Why? If I've misunderstood, please help me to clarify.

- Regarding the "more updated list than that on the wiki/proces"... That's exactly what I was commenting on in my previous posts on Page 1 and 2 (and to a lesser extent, page 3) regarding a prototype application coded by some members of the community at large. The CSM knows there are gaps in protocol and process and also generally agree (broad statement here) that there needs to be more flexbility and robust-ness built in to existing tools or new tools developed to meet their needs. This is why the #excellence channel on irc.coldfront.net exsists, for this very reason. Also noted in the blog itself and in player comments are quite a few nods of agreement about approaching CCP to discuss other ideas... did you not see this points?

Originally by: Zagdul

When you guys work on a blog and put your name on it, but add the line of: "And yet, there was still the problem of the backlog.", that backlog should be consistent with issues that still need addressing or have solutions suggested to fix the issues that are still current. Putting that line in is very confrontational towards CCP in my opinion.



If I may be bold... the CSM's job is not to be cute and fluffy. While I agree that there is a lot to be said about diplomacy and tact as useful tools, I would highly recommend reading back two years into the history of the CSM and general player opinions. In the past (and sometimes still today), players have voiced criticism of CCP's actions (or inactions) in many forms, some to the point of outright hostility. Maybe some of it was not warranted, maybe some of it was... the point being, the CSM is like your defense lawyer: Do you expect your highly trained/elected representative to just bend over if the judge hands down a harsh sentence? NO! Of course you wouldn't! The same goes for the CSM... an elected body of representatives who are there to give the players a voice and an avenue to coordinate efforts with CCP to develop Eve over time. Conflicts will arise, and in my humble opinion, the notation of "there was still the problem of the backlog" is not a bash at CCP but pointing out where we were, our frustrations, our concerns... and how much hard work has gone into putting us in the wonderful position we are in today.

If you have no metrics by which to base your progress, how do you know you've moved forward?

Originally by: Zagdul

Narrow that list down a bit and maybe have a new page for "solved CSM issues" (shoulda read your whole post) and move stuff off that page. Also, by having that long ass list, how the hell is CCP supposed to get to the bottom of anything? You want to get things fixed and feel that you as a CSM rep have done something to improve this game. Well, streamline that list and give CCP solutions or consolidated problems, not a list of things that got posted on a forum. If you are going to have that "backlog", at least have a "high priority" page.



Might I interest you in August's crowdsourcing and prioritization?

[cont, again]

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.22 14:45:00 - [98]
 

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/August_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29

Originally by: Zagdul

Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...


Now see, that's just a cold stab in the back. I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me... let's not forget the between-summit meetings, the wiki articles (yes, we covered the need to update it more), the emails, the eve-mails, the internal forum debates, the forum minutes by the secretary, the blog updates... all while playing that other MMORPG we call "Real Life". Don't kid yourself: CSM work is a second job; ask any present or ex-member and I'm positive they will agree. If you feel that they're not doing anything, by all means feel free to run next election and present your platform on improvements. I hardly call the items listed in this big blog a "lack of work".

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.22 19:45:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 22/09/2010 19:51:17



Originally by: Johnathan Walker
Hi Zagdul,

You missed my points.

Hopefully, the CSM rep got them.

I'll try to summarize my concerns with shorter sentences. I have a hard time making points...

1. If you're going to use a page as ammunition, please have that page up to date or link to the current issues page. If not, you're just fueling the fire.

2. Issues should be dynamic, not static.

3. While the CSM process should be transparent, it should have some inconsistencies. I don't like that on many of the issues there are resounding "Yes" votes when, in my opinion Yes/No is not concise enough and the representatives are no longer in the CSM position. Furthermore, some of those issues have been heated debates on the forums. In other words, the vote wasn't an honest one or, since they're no longer in office, their opinion doesn't matter. Also, the newest CSM seems to have more of an unique and open opinion where the former guys were all whistle blowing loud mouths who were there for a title and to suck up to get to the top. The latest crew seems to want to get things done and fixed. Out with the old, in with the new.

The "tally" should be a private thing the CSM's do and don't share with the other CSM to help avoid them influencing each other. Their vote should be separate.

Yes, this should be made public later.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.22 19:53:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/August_2010_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing_%28CSM%29

Originally by: Zagdul

Show that the CSM does something and that CCP does listen. Win/Win...


Now see, that's just a cold stab in the back. I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me... let's not forget the between-summit meetings, the wiki articles (yes, we covered the need to update it more), the emails, the eve-mails, the internal forum debates, the forum minutes by the secretary, the blog updates... all while playing that other MMORPG we call "Real Life". Don't kid yourself: CSM work is a second job; ask any present or ex-member and I'm positive they will agree. If you feel that they're not doing anything, by all means feel free to run next election and present your platform on improvements. I hardly call the items listed in this big blog a "lack of work".
I disagree... You just told me that the CSM process is supposed to be transparent?

How more transparent can someone be than by SHOWING your work.

Show that the CSM does things and that CCP listens... it's a win/win situation.

I'm sorry if that could have seemed like a cynical comment by me, it wasn't meant to be.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.22 20:45:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Zagdul


How more transparent can someone be than by SHOWING your work.

Show that the CSM does things and that CCP listens... it's a win/win situation.

I'm sorry if that could have seemed like a cynical comment by me, it wasn't meant to be.



It's very cynical: What part of the efforts by CSM's past and present thus far warrant the comment of "Show that the CSM does things"?

There's meeting minutes, there's blogs, there's raw text files of the meetings posted for anyone to read, there's summit summaries to read, there's the in-game channel CSM Public, there's evemail and email...

What part of CSM's actions past and present are giving you the reason to say "Show me that the CSM does work" ?

As far as I can see, they're working their butts off.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.09.23 02:03:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

It's very cynical:

I understand that it can be interpreted as cynical, it wasn't meant to be.

I hope I explained it better in my second post.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.23 02:28:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker
I don't know about current CSM members or the ones in the past, but flying to Iceland on a 16 hour flight and spending two to three days jabbering sounds like *WORK* to me...

About 20 hours a week, minimum, not counting the summit trips. Poor Mynxee is basically burning *all* her vacation days on CSM stuff.

There's a reason for the tagline on my sig... Very Happy

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.09.23 02:55:00 - [104]
 

CSM,

Thanks you please continue even if CCP is really going the bad way and give us only cosmetics points or so old ones that I only trust that they have already solved it or that it will introduce more bugs.

CCP, thank you for the guys I met here and I will keep in touch with!

I stop playing Eve now after 4 years(subscription end) cause it's no more Eve Online and based on CCP way it will no more be. I liked extensions but the base of the game is driving away cause of CCP greed attitude.

-1 Veteran -2 Paying

Fly Safe,
Yeay

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.23 20:04:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Trebor DaehdoowAbout 20 hours a week, minimum, not counting the summit trips. Poor Mynxee is basically burning *all* her vacation days on CSM stuff.[/quote


Actually taking unpaid leave for all remaining Iceland trips since I have no paid leave time left to use. I'm just real damn lucky to have a very cool boss. And even with CCP paying for flights and accommodations, there are still incidental expenses incurred. Every time I hear the "free trips to Iceland" meme bandied about, I just :rolleyes: at the ignorance that conveys.

CSM is work. If you don't believe it, there's a sure way to find out: Get elected and experience it for yourself!

<3 JW for all your support.





Delilah Wild
Posted - 2010.09.23 23:47:00 - [106]
 

While the progress may be slow, this is an impressive post. Mynxee, Dierdra and the rest of the CSM are doing impressive work. I'm grateful we have such a dedicated CSM.

Cheers, Delilah

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.24 00:15:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Laughing

Fail.


wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.09.25 03:04:00 - [108]
 

These changes are underwhelming in the extreme. I hope that CCP makes a boatload of money on their vampire game and DUST so they can get back to fixing this one. I don't know if they've noticed, but the font is blindingly terrible, the UI is cripplingly bad, POSes are miserable to deal with, sov warfare is about as fun as a poke in the eye, etc., etc.

I guess it's better than nothing, and I appreciate the CSM's trying (especially when it's so obviously futile).

Except Meissa. This is obviously all her fault.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Posted - 2010.09.28 12:14:00 - [109]
 

Not that I think that a lot of people care about this more then they do about combat issues, but I'd still like to see POS improvements and ship crews. Since I never even heard of this 'crowdsourcing' vote they did, and was the author of the Ship Crews thread in the Features forum, many of who's idea were culled for the proposal.

Personally, I think that CCP should post a public list of the 'backlog' for all of us to read, so we know what's actually being worked on and what isn't.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.09.29 15:33:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?
Laughing

Fail.




Buy probes, abandon in macrobotted system, LOL as macros log back out as soon as they log in because probes are on scan. Repeat; probes are cheap.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.29 23:25:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Buy probes, abandon in macrobotted system, LOL as macros log back out as soon as they log in because probes are on scan. Repeat; probes are cheap.


I love you, Malcanis, for you are my kind of evil genius. Twisted Evil


Rawbin Hood
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.09.30 03:29:00 - [112]
 

that "backlog" list could be cut in half, at least, serious,

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2010.10.11 21:56:00 - [113]
 

Thanks for the very comprehensive round-up. Inclusion of CSM as a stakeholder in Agile is a significant and important step. As part of your 'How to improve Process', IMHO you could add an intro to Agile in the "New CSM Member Guide" (Or create the guide if you don't!).


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