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Thanael
Gallente
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.17 22:41:00 - [61]
 

If the drone-recalling, the bookmark alignment and seeing fitting without boarding make it in, winter expansion is a-ok in my book. Good job CCP for listening to your customers, and good job CSM for making them listen :)

These, and fixing lag ofcourse, but things are already improving so i have every confidence that you will not stop even when you reach previous highest limits of players with a playable game, but push the boundaries even higher.

Taross
Caldari
Laurentson INC
Posted - 2010.09.17 23:37:00 - [62]
 

GJ so far, CSM.

Now, keep at their throats! They can do more for you, and for us, the player base. If properly motivated.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.09.18 00:25:00 - [63]
 

Good stuff indeed but I'll count my bears when I shot them as we says down here.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.09.18 00:29:00 - [64]
 

Until I see things hit TQ, I will hold back any praise for the CSM. You guys really should learn your history of the CSM before you start throwing praise at them.

ugh zug
PWNED Factor
Posted - 2010.09.18 07:47:00 - [65]
 

I see the CSM really cares about hybrid weapons.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.09.18 07:49:00 - [66]
 

How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?

What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?

I don't think so!

We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.

I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.09.18 08:28:00 - [67]
 

Could we actually fit ships without boarding them? If you are low on ISK/modules, it is a pain boarding three different ships and taking various parts of them.

Other than that - align to bookmarks, meta levels on loot, probes on overview = awesomeness.

SIEGE RED
Posted - 2010.09.18 09:10:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?

What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?



Transparancy is one key. The raw logs for the meetings are quite interesting really. For example reading who really opposed the publication of the blog, or wanted just ego stroking content, or who is afraid of showing the cards on the table, is really insightful.

Originally by: Gnulpie

We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.

I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none.


Nothing is stopping you from grabbing CSM members in the CSM Public channel in game and asking questions, or doing something bigger like interviews ad interim, podcasts, or even setting up a site or blog which tracks CSM member activity. That being said, I do think one of them has a site up which shows who showed up for meetings, who voted, for what, against what, etc.

Something to keep in mind here is where the CSM comes from. It used to be just a social experiment, hence the strong "omg facebook & awesome" component, but once CCP realised they needed more consolidated feedback processes they stepped over that and assigned stakeholder status (yes, with their usual communicative challenges and confusion of definitions but still, they did it).

This CSM 5 is the first one where things have meaning and where both succes and failure has impact for CCP. CSM is not making promises, they are applying workflow, and as always the normal CCP caveat applies (never mistake any statement for a promis). But having seen how different the environment is, how different the various communities respond in regards to the old normal "drama" I do think it is fair to say that at least large parts of CCP have realised this. Which comes down to this blog, its contents, but also the general process being a serious test for CCP's commitment to the product. If they can't get these things in, then it will be clear that the visible organisational and communicative issues persist, that the divide in perception continues to exist and that while on a general level they understand a bunch of stuff, things still break down at a decision level. The Winter Expansion in that regard really is a big test.

There's just three glitches there. First of all CCP will have to overcome pulling down pants with their long term commitments balancing EVE, lessons drawn from recent events, and the other bigger projects. And second, they need to get over some long established patterns of perception, fences, trenches and fears. And last, a CSM should never forget that accountability of the host is always required as an instrument of these stakeholder processes for visibility and productivity.

So, if you want to keep an eye on CSM as a bunch of people and as a process, get in gear Cool

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.18 09:21:00 - [69]
 

This is awesome! FIXES!!

CCP - hybrid weapons. With the fix for rockets, and the otherwise balanced weapons in the game, you are so close to *actually making all weapon systems roughly balanced in pvp!*.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.18 10:26:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
If you are low on ISK/modules, it is a pain boarding three different ships and taking various parts of them.


Right click -> repackage. All your mods will appear in your hangar. Doesn't work with rigged ships of course :(

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.18 11:58:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
How do you prevent the CSM from pushing their own agenda and ignoring player concerns? Concerns that the CSM might think are 'ridiculous' due to their own agenda?

The major safeguard is that there are 9 CSMs, and all you need is 1 to raise an issue for discussion. Given that the CSM does not just rubberstamp what any individual CSM thinks is a good idea, it's a reasonable filter. And keep in mind that if the CSM does vote for something totally bogus, CCP will just say "ROFLMAO thanks for the LOLs" and ignore it.

Admittedly, there is the distinct possibility that both the CSM and CCP will at some point have all their heads firmly lodged in their asses (or someone else's), but that is a risk you take with any representative system.

Quote:
What safeguards do you have that the CSM is really executing the will of the player and not their own fancy stuff? Is the election every 1 year good enough?

It is a rough balance; if the period in office is too short, noobs on the council (like me) are just getting up to speed on how things work by the time the next election comes along, and you waste a lot of time campaigning. If it's too long, then the council members are less accountable to the players.

Quote:
We, the players, should certainly have more safeguards and warning mechanisms. An evaluation based on player feedback several times during the 1 year CSM period comes to my mind.

Easy to say, hard to do. But feel free to make a proposal in AH on how this might be implemented.

Quote:
I certainly don't want the CSM people to promise all sort of things just so that they can get 1 year of CSM membership and once in the CSM they just 'forget' all about their promises. There should be safeguards against this! And currently there are none.

Well, perhaps you (and others) ought to keep track of what promises (if any) CSM members made, and what they have done to fulfill them. In my campaign, I put a special focus on UI issues and Lag, and I think I've done a decent job of trying to address those concerns, within the limitations of the current CSM process.

After I was elected, and attended the first summit, it became clear to me that expanding and defining how CSM works was also a very important issue. Thus all the work on prioritization, etc.

Nekobara Nanako
Posted - 2010.09.18 11:59:00 - [72]
 

So why did this thing take two votes amongst the CSM members to get published, and the last one succeeded only cause the CSM leader broke the even vote in favor or releasing?

Afraid people's expectations would be too high since they obviously can't understand that 'could' classification of rocket balance fix means it can easily be dropped? Or are we talking some other issue...

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.09.18 12:46:00 - [73]
 

Nice one!

Also, what's with the whine about hybrids? Everyone knows that Ferox is best fit with AC's or lasers anyway...Wink

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.09.18 13:34:00 - [74]
 

Interesting ugh

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.09.18 17:54:00 - [75]
 

All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?

Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.09.18 18:11:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?


You can add them to your overview already and it's not half as hard as making a macro. This shouldn't change anything.

Cresalle
Posted - 2010.09.18 18:45:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Cresalle on 18/09/2010 18:52:02
Originally by: ugh zug
I see the CSM really cares about hybrid weapons.


What's wrong with hybrids? Brid ships can be nasty if you use them right.

Also, I agree with some of the earlier statements along the lines of 'Let's see what happens on TQ' but would like to say that the CSM is my collective hero and props to CCP for starting to pay attention.

Elementatia
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.18 20:12:00 - [78]
 

Aye !

Very nice - now CSM is there where i have seen it as of time of the first election. Many thanks to CCP for the first company where players have a instututional voice and direct contact !
Many thanks to CSM for your work !

greetings

P.S. Maybe itīs possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?

Rhok Relztem
Caldari
CGMA Synergist Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.18 23:13:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Rhok Relztem on 18/09/2010 23:22:20
Wow! Can't believe no one who has commented is excited about the filtering of deliveries! A simple fix actually but it will be a monumental time saver for those of us who have huge lists that currently have absolutely no filtering, and now we are (hopefully) getting sort by # of jumps AND location! ROCKETS! YES! That whole list looks great (albeit short) including the improvements to SISI. This is fantastic after all of the drama over the summer due to expecting nothing for at least 18+ months. Truthfully, I'm as excited as a pirate facing a dozen trapped noobs loaded with PLEX in their cargo holds! YARRRR!!

Kudos to the CSM for working so dammed hard and proving the naysayers wrong, and to CCP for (hopefully) changing direction even if it wasn't on an ISK. This winter expansion is indeed a huge test. If the bulk of these changes/fixes make it into the notes, it will go a LONG way towards restoring my faith (and probably many other players' as well) in CCP and give us reason to hope for more of the same in the future.

Edit: Great blog! Keep them coming! Very Happy

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.09.19 01:43:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Nekobara Nanako
So why did this thing take two votes amongst the CSM members to get published, and the last one succeeded only cause the CSM leader broke the even vote in favor or releasing?

The first time a vote was called to release the blog it wasn't (in mine and a few other peoples' opinion) quite ready. I maintain the extra week of work was needed to polish.

When it was resubmitted a week later Mynxee only used her casting vote on the list of issues that CCP had accepted being included. The blog itself being released was a separate vote which passed without objection.


Originally by: Nekobara Nanako
Afraid people's expectations would be too high since they obviously can't understand that 'could' classification of rocket balance fix means it can easily be dropped? Or are we talking some other issue...

As I wasn't one of the people opposing the inclusion of the list I can only guess their reasons, but I would suspect something like the above combined with the relative simplicity of the picked issues over the more meaty proposals.

Ophelia Ursus
Posted - 2010.09.19 01:44:00 - [81]
 

Slightly disappointed in the number of things that were overlooked (no AF boost = sadness), but good to see some tangible progress being made.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?

Don't know where you're probing, but round my neck of the woods, there are exactly two kinds of mission runners: careless people on whom you can get a warpin with a single scan (probes visible for around 10 seconds tops), and those who fly unprobeable T3s. If you're even semi-competent at probing, you'll still have every chance of catching people of the first kind, and you can't catch the second kind as it is. Probes on the overview should have happened ages ago.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.19 04:43:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 19/09/2010 04:43:18
Originally by: SIEGE RED

That being said, I do think one of them has a site up which shows who showed up for meetings, who voted, for what, against what, etc.



http://teadaze.net/csmDB/proposals.php?csmsession=5 is what you're looking for

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2010.09.19 09:20:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Gnulpie on 19/09/2010 09:21:25
Quote:
14 CSM-related items made the Winter Expansion list; 1 Must, 9 Should's, and 5 Could's


Hmm, isn't that 15 items?

Somehow I see only 4 Could's in the list - then you come up with 14 items. Did you forget to list one 'Could' or is the summary wrong?

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.19 10:12:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie

Quote:
14 CSM-related items made the Winter Expansion list; 1 Must, 9 Should's, and 5 Could's


Hmm, isn't that 15 items?

Somehow I see only 4 Could's in the list - then you come up with 14 items. Did you forget to list one 'Could' or is the summary wrong?

That is an editing error. One minor item that had been included by mistake was removed at the last moment.

A new item has been added to the backlog to address this issue:

Must: As a condition for employment at CCP, or to serve on the CSM, I must demonstrate competence in basic arithmetic.

Another win for the CSM! Twisted Evil

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.19 10:21:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Elementatia
P.S. Maybe itīs possible to distinguish more easily between BPO and BPC in the near future ?

This is something that has always annoyed me, and it's on my list of things to discuss in December to see if there is a workaround that will ease the pain. If it turns out not to be reasonably doable, at the very least a good explanation of the reasons why should be communicated to the players.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:55:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 19/09/2010 18:14:05
WAIT WUT?

That's almost too good to be true. CCP making sense and implementing long overdue improvements instead of adding more half-assed new features?

*tears of joy*

edit: The only thing lacking to make it even more awesome would be a medium blasters fix and a medium and large railguns fix.

Bhattran
Posted - 2010.09.19 22:17:00 - [87]
 

Glad to see some progress but can't stress that CSM's job isn't done, nor can the 'pressure' from them let up. For the next council the momentum of all the previous CSM's has begun to turn the tide of CCP seemingly ignoring them and consequently us players.

We will have to wait and see what actually gets delivered and as time moves forward if the trend continues in a positive direction, slides into being ignored or not. I'm hopeful but not 'convinced' nor will I really ever trust that everything will work out.

SkinSin
Posted - 2010.09.19 22:33:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: SkinSin on 19/09/2010 22:35:48
Quote:
Must: As a User, I have access to archived forums.

Ha ha ha. What? The ONLY must have isn't even game related?
What? Have I missed something there...?!
Rolling Eyes

edit: although it'll be good to see some of the other things mentioned.

Gerard Deneth
Caldari
Pavlov Labs GmBH
Independent Faction
Posted - 2010.09.20 02:18:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
All good changes except one: adding probes to overview. Once this goes live then the ratting bots will be able to detect and avoid probes all the more easily. Fail. As will all other potential targets.

Where are my Serpentis Stealth Probes that don't show up on scan for hunting mission runners? Well?


Hate to burst your bubble but you can already add them to overview. I don't have the instructions on hand, but you just have to edit the saved overview files on your PC (they're in a basic text format) where you just enter in one or two more entries. Then bam, they're available to be seen.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.20 12:32:00 - [90]
 

Good Job CSM.

I really like the work the CSM is doing, and it's all about little things that will make EVE more polished and near to excellence (in terms of player enjoyment).

I hope that CCP will listen to the CSM about bigger things in future (stuff like fixing lowsec, lag entailing sov warfare, small gang warfare in 0.0, revamping mining and mission running).


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