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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:57:00 - [31]
 

Also, the forum timer is only 2 minutes now and checking fittings without having to board the ship led me to do a happy dance.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:59:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal


Originally by: Jonathan Walker
We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.

I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.


Yes, we did receive quite a lot of feedback regarding the initial desires/wishes though ongoing feedback would be great. I don't have the specifics but I know development has stopped due to lack of CSM feedback/interest. We're waiting on you folks Cool

Originally by: Mynxee

Really? I mentioned this project a few meetings ago, in the Other Business part of the agenda (maybe you weren't present at that meeting, though). I am sure I posted the link to the project site either via our mailing list or in our forums, can't recall atm. Maybe both. But here's the link again for easy reference.



http://teadaze.net/csm5/CSM5_Meeting_006_Raw_Log.txt

Quote:
[ 18:16:51 ] Mynxee > work on the CSM issue categorization tool by Ix Forres is proceeding.




Hope that helps for backtracking to the conversation Wink

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:09:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15
I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development. Embarassed

Leovarian Lavitz
Minmatar
Eternal Profiteers
Santa Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:12:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Leovarian Lavitz on 17/09/2010 17:15:24
Originally by: AXE LEEII
Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01
I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....

-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.

-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones

-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m

-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.

Not much,
Thx

Very Happy


Sentries work off of your ship's distance relative to your target.If the control range was only 2000m, they couldn't shoot at whatever you are shooting at.

Soo, if you had a set of warden IIs 150 km from your target, and you are opposite the target by your drone control range, 80 km, your sentries would start shooting at it if you give the command, even though you are 230 km from your sentries

Caphelo
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:22:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Leovarian Lavitz
Edited by: Leovarian Lavitz on 17/09/2010 17:15:24
Originally by: AXE LEEII
Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01
I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....

-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.

-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones

-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m

-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.

Not much,
Thx

Very Happy


Sentries work off of your ship's distance relative to your target.If the control range was only 2000m, they couldn't shoot at whatever you are shooting at.

Soo, if you had a set of warden IIs 150 km from your target, and you are opposite the target by your drone control range, 80 km, your sentries would start shooting at it if you give the command, even though you are 230 km from your sentries


Which is exactly NOT the way it should be. Drone "CONTROL" range implies that you need to be within that range of your drones to control them. Since you are (almost) always within 2k of your sentries, you should be able to command them to fire on targets 250km away and they should do it (whether or not they can hit them at that range is beside the point).

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:23:00 - [36]
 

Oh my... POS gunners getting alerts, a rocket rebalance, *and* sort by meta? Shocked What, do you guys think this is a Christmas expansion or something?

-Liang

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:23:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 17:24:13
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15
I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development. Embarassed


Cool

All the more reason to come join us in IRC; we don't bite... hard. Twisted Evil



Originally by: Liang Nuren
Oh my... POS gunners getting alerts, a rocket rebalance, *and* sort by meta? Shocked What, do you guys think this is a Christmas expansion or something?

-Liang



It *is* a winter expansion... Wink

Caiman Graystock
Caldari
Cornelius Starship and Computer Design
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:29:00 - [38]
 

Kudos to the CSM for their hard work (past and present) and kudos to CCP for allowing this whole 'experiment' to prosper and develop into an effective channel of communication between players and developers.

NARDAC
Posted - 2010.09.17 17:32:00 - [39]
 

Looks like the player bases (well deserved) little hissie fit worked!

Many of the items in tha list of being worked on sound great. Different icon for MWD, meta level in detail list of inventory, rename a ship without it being the active ship, and many more.


London
Imminent Ruin
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:01:00 - [40]
 

Wait, all those fixes and huge list of CSM backlogged issues and nothing about fixing Blasters/Rails/Hybrids? Le' sigh...
at least buffing active tanks is in the backlog...



Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:23:00 - [41]
 

I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration. Also huge props for CCP Xhagen for having vision for such project, and pushing hard (tho this is easy for him he has 120kg before lunch) all the time.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:32:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 18:52:07
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development.


Ah...we were working on defining the spec and Ix had started to code some of the underpinnings. Its at a standstill now, sadly, unless more CSMs or maybe CCP shows some interest.

Originally by: Vuk Lau
I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration.


Yup...that point was made in the blog twice and by other CSMs in this thread. The impact of continuity and each CSM laying groundwork for the next is a very important factor and key to the success of the concept as a whole.

SIEGE RED
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:33:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: SIEGE RED on 17/09/2010 18:33:55
Originally by: Vuk Lau
I need to point that as someone who was in CSM2, CSM3, had close RL friend in CSM4 and now CSM5 that this huge progress CSM achieved from day zero is combined effort by everyone from CSM1 to this administration.


Lol. Very Happy

No really. Rolling Eyes

Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.

T'Amber
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:51:00 - [44]
 

Dammit Chribba!

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:55:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Whatever else happens during CSM5's tenure, they got sort by meta done, so CSM5 is a success in my book. Anything else that is accomplished is icing on the cake.


My goodness, you are easily satisfied. I guess we should tell CCP that the heat is off, and they can cancel plans to implement <redacted>, <censored> and (alas, my favorite) <deleted>. Cool

In all honesty, like everyone, I would like the CSM items list to be longer, and full of bigger stuff. But as a realist, I have to say "OK, so far so good, learn how to work the process better, work to get a better list next time, and build the institutional knowledge so that CSM6 can hit the ground running."

Erik Finnegan
Gallente
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
Posted - 2010.09.17 18:58:00 - [46]
 

I'm impressed. Impressed, I am.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 19:04:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
In all honesty, like everyone, I would like the CSM items list to be longer, and full of bigger stuff. But as a realist, I have to say "OK, so far so good, learn how to work the process better, work to get a better list next time, and build the institutional knowledge so that CSM6 can hit the ground running."


Well, we'll have to see what can get put into the pipeline for the next Dev Planning cycle Wink

Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.09.17 19:20:00 - [48]
 

Small good stuff the WExpansion awesomewinsauce? Very Happy

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.17 19:22:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: SIEGE RED
Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.


Its 19:00, not early for sure.

SIEGE RED
Posted - 2010.09.17 19:58:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: SIEGE RED
Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.


Its 19:00, not early for sure.


Get to work man Cool You're losing your touch, you can be much better at this Cool

Serious though, previous CSM's were experiments, even though some people did put in a lot of time they were a case of what players tend to write off as the free trip to iceland. Doesn't matter whether it is accurate behind the scenes, it's a perception problem.

That is why this CSM 5 stands out so much. I'm not sure which one of you hit it off with taking it as serious business and effectively treating it as such. Maybe it was a few of y'all, but it's given an approach which is interestingly capable of doing what CSM really is about.

Less fun? Yeah. But that is good. Ups the ante. And that is needed.

Nika Dekaia
Posted - 2010.09.17 20:01:00 - [51]
 

Big thanks to the members of the current csm and to those before. Your effort and time invested to make Eve a better game are much appreciated.

Thanks to CCP for actually commiting to such a community feature - beyond some RP stunt.

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.09.17 20:01:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: SIEGE RED
Originally by: Vuk Lau
Originally by: SIEGE RED
Bit early to start the politics again isn't it.


Its 19:00, not early for sure.


Get to work man Cool You're losing your touch, you can be much better at this Cool



True :D Today is not my day.

Mark726
Gallente
Inquest
Posted - 2010.09.17 20:12:00 - [53]
 

Seriously, props to the CSM with their hard work. I'm glad to see that all the foundation laying and work from the previous CSMs is finally paying off.

And, personally, I'm excited about aligning to BM, viewing fittings of ships when not in them, and about finally getting probes to show on the overview. Great work guys, I can't wait to see what else you have in store :-D

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.09.17 20:37:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 20:45:11
CSM & CCP,

Tank you for this Blog.

CSM, thank you for your work to make CCP consider it's player base view.

I feel it's may be the start of a true CSM/CCPcommon work.

CCP, thank you for this cosmetics chance costing not so mutch on the Dev Team time.

Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these are in the expansion !
Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so so few !


You have three months works, a meeting in June and the main major bug is Rocket ?

My englsih is not so good, tell me if I miss a point and I will apologizie you all if it's the case but :

- What about the Backlog Status ?
- What about existing Bug Status ?
- Will Dominion work as announced one day ?
- Will CCP commit on a change ?
- When will you adress Bug and not tower mail redirection issues ? (This one cost a SQL request to add To people on a list, takes me 5 minutes.)

CCP sad to understand that you think we are all IT Technical illetrate !

Don't you think some of your players can buil IT planning and are aware of true development cost and time ?

If it's all your Dev team can do in 3 months it's a shame. I feel it's not, I feel your Direction once again want to maintain the paying player base by launching big words in the air ...only.

What's else in the expansion ?

CCP, How many people are working on this Expansion people ?

1, 2 or 3 ?

It seems that 3 Sprints to do to close the whole list of Bugs is not enough or do you use 18 months Sprint ? Like slow Marathons ?


"Another thing to keep in mind when reading the list is the time-frames under which CCP operates. While we are used to thinking of Expansions as happening every 6 months, preparatory work for the Winter 2010 expansion began well before CSM5 arrived in Reykjavík for the June Summit. CCP is a big company now, and it can't turn on an ISK... but it can turn."

Tell us now waht will be in the next one then !

MUSCoW priority example :
You will never see Dominion working as expected !
You will see us changing mail To people only.

Yeay

P.S. : Enterprise Architect, Working in Development since 13 Years as Developper, Quality Manager, Porject Manager and Program Manager. Don't attempt to tell me it's all you can do with company of your size !

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 21:04:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 21:08:18
I'll help with the english summary, I hope I get the points right:

Originally by: Yeay Fritg

Thank you for this Blog.

CSM, thank you for your work to make CCP consider it's player views.
I feel it's the start of CSM/CCP cooperation.
CCP, thank you for these opportunities without a huge expense of time from the dev team.

Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these ideas are in the expansion!
Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so few !


You have three months of work complete, a meeting in June and the main major bug is Rocket balances?

My englsih is not so good, tell me if I miss a point and I will apologizie you all if it's the case but :

- What about the Backlog Status ? (maybe the status of all CSM items ever submitted?)
- What about existing Bug Status ? (status on existing bugs already submitted)
- Will Dominion work as announced one day ? (probably referring to the big lag issues that became even worse in dominion ie: 10 people crashing a system etc)
- Will CCP commit on a change ? (not sure what he means here)
- When will you address bugs and not control tower mail notifications?

CCP: sad that you think we are all technically illiterate!

Don't you think some of your players can are aware of true development cost and time ?

If it's all your Dev team can do in 3 months it's a shame. I feel it's not, I feel your direction once again went to maintain the paying player base by putting up a bunch of talk (big words in the air).

What's else is coming in the expansion ?

CCP, How many people are working on this expansion?

It seems that 3 Sprints to close the whole list of bugs is not enough or do you use 18 month sprints ? Like slow Marathons ?


"Another thing to keep in mind when reading the list is the time-frames under which CCP operates. While we are used to thinking of Expansions as happening every 6 months, preparatory work for the Winter 2010 expansion began well before CSM5 arrived in Reykjavík for the June Summit. CCP is a big company now, and it can't turn on an ISK... but it can turn."

Tell us now waht will be in the next one then ! (he means: Tell us what will be in the next expansion)

MUSCoW priority example :
You will never see Dominion working as expected ! (We will not see Dominion issues resolved)
You will see us changing mail To people only. ( We will only see control tower mails as an improvement)



P.S. : Enterprise Architect, Working in Development since 13 Years as Developper, Quality Manager, Porject Manager and Program Manager. Don't attempt to tell me it's all you can do with company of your size ! (that part speaks for itself)




Hope I helped to clear some of that up, Yeay. :)

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 21:17:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 21:22:32
Edited by: Mynxee on 17/09/2010 21:18:35
Originally by: Yeay Fritg

I feel it's may be the start of a true CSM/CCPcommon work.

CCP, thank you for this cosmetics chance costing not so mutch on the Dev Team time.

Sad day for the Winter Expansion if only these are in the expansion! Sad if it will cost you 3 months do so so few!


Just want to point out that the items listed in the CSM blog in no way represents the sum total of what the Winter Expansion will contain. The CSM blog merely discusses which CSM items are in the pipeline for that expansion. Obviously, these items comprise a very small (though in some cases much-wanted) portion of what is planned for the Winter Expansion.

As to what else that expansion will contain, well, that's been discussed in other threads and I'm sure CCP will be putting out teasers and additional information closer to the release date.

Yeay Fritg
Caldari
Confrerie de Kaedri
Cluster Of Rebirth
Posted - 2010.09.17 21:44:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:55:20
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:46:12
Edited by: Yeay Fritg on 17/09/2010 21:45:48
Mynxee,

As we say around here : If you will do it, tell it !

Based on my CCP experience they will not do it !

CCP ?

If you can't publically commit on a point it's simply cause you will not do it and you know of !

Can't you CCP tell : We will attempt to do all this list and give you a advancement summary every 2 weeks ? Aren't you sing Sprint ? Or are you just reading the methodology right now ? Come on guy working in the Private sector and you will learn not to launch at client face !

Mynxee, thank you for all your work but as stated in the meeting minutes CCP think that new development give more than quality ! Nothing else to discuss about a game say taht ! If CCP is happy with Eve as it i let's play it but financing a company that tell publicaly 'we just want your money don't expect quality'...sorry I can trust them once but not twice.

Yeay

Johnathan Walker
;-)

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.17 21:52:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Wacoede
Quote:
Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.


that one item has justified my faith in the CSM

as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus

a big TY to Dierdra Vaal for raising it and to all the CSM for supporting it


Yeah, but as just a "Could", which is pretty sad. It's sufficiently easy and useful it should have at least been a "Should". In Quantum Rise.

Originally by: NARDAC
Looks like the player bases (well deserved) little hissie fit worked!

Many of the items in tha list of being worked on sound great. Different icon for MWD, meta level in detail list of inventory, rename a ship without it being the active ship, and many more.


Hey, we got some stuff, which is nice. But until we start getting wins like a POS overhaul or text chat built sometime after 1987, I'll reserve my best praise. Still, we are getting some nice stuff out of this, so I won't complain too much.

SIEGE RED
Posted - 2010.09.17 21:57:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Wacoede
Quote:
Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.


that one item has justified my faith in the CSM

as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus




Yeah, but as just a "Could", which is pretty sad. It's sufficiently easy and useful it should have at least been a "Should". In Quantum Rise.


Seems like it's a pretty good test case for how serious CCPs commitment is to EVE, as opposed to other big projects. Remarkable that something as small as this can be so significant for a bigger picture.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.09.17 22:21:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:32:44
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:50
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:30
Originally by: Jason Edwards

another csm blog..



The previous CSM blog was the one posted at the end of the CSM3 term. I'm sure we haven't been overdoing it :P

Originally by: Jonathan Walker
We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.

I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 17:09:15
I remember that but I thought it just meant progress in determining requirements, not actual development. Embarassed


We took about a week to finalize the spec, which was longer than expected due to people vanishing over a weekend. After that we had a prototype in a week which we improved over the next week, then we got to the point where we had to ask CSM about an item and gave up.

There's also an issue with motivation at this stage. Both myself and Makurid have stopped working on EVE Online apps recently and currently I have no plan to continue outside of critical bugfixes for my own apps. Since we make up the majority of the development force on the project at present (http://github.com/excellence/nebula/graphs/impact) it's thus not likely that further development would be undertaken without interest from CCP or considerable interest from the majority of the CSM.

It was quite disheartening to hear that CSM5 had essentially turned to internal squabbling over the issue rather than collaborating with us, which might have resulted in a product that benefited the community being developed, as so many of these things, by the community, for free, for CCP and the playerbase. Looks like they're stuck with the wiki for now.


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