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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.09.17 15:02:00 - [1]
 

The Fifth Council of Stellar Management has written a very extensive blog on the work they have been doing and the status of CSM items in the backlog. You can read all about it here.

Qujulome
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:18:00 - [2]
 

progress is progress

Dan Kaneda
Kaneda's Evil Ninja Organization
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:20:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Dan Kaneda on 17/09/2010 15:24:06
T3 refitting ? drone reconnection ? Rocket fix ?

Epic expansion incoming if those make it to the release Cool

EDIT : Also, probes in the overview \o/

EDIT 2 : In before chribba too :D

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:20:00 - [4]
 

\o/ In before Chribba.

Looks good so far.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:24:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 15:27:34
I'd like to mention the mass testing last night (september 16th), which had over 900 people in local at one point. This is exactly the kind of turn outs that can help CCP find the best solutions to fix The Lags, and it was great to see so many more people turn up. It is a lot easier now to get on SiSi and you get some free skillpoints too, but I definately did not anticipate that those improvements would lead to such an increase in participation!

So thank you, everyone who attends mass tests!

SIEGE RED
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:28:00 - [6]
 

So, in short the CSM have moved on from it being just a fun trip to a realisation that if you want to get stuff done by CCP you're going to have to do it step by step. And each step, you pretty much have to put everything on the table and shine a lot of light on it for CCP to look at it.

Well, it does look like this CSM 5 has made a lot of headway with that. Results tangible for everyone obviously pending, but hey, this is CCP they have to deal with Cool

Good blog tbh. I'm obviously a little frustrated that while this CSM has managed to get through to CCP far more then any previous CSM (seems like treating like serious business works better then facebook or the bar) and I can see that stuff is starting to move.

Now let's hope CCP sees ways to understand the benefits of capitalising on constructive feedback processes, and that this CSM and the next continue to take on the tasks as serious business.

Grideris
Gallente
Fleet Coordination Command
Fleet Coordination Coalition
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:29:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Grideris on 17/09/2010 15:29:49
Balanced rockets? Reconnecting to drones? Different AB and MWD icons? In my EVE?

Also IB4C.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:34:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 15:39:38
Quote:
CCP's willingness to permit the CSM backlog to be made public was a pleasant surprise for the CSM, and we hope for more pleasant surprises in the future.


I'm very interested in this little bit, especially considering the other bits written about focusing on updating the CSM Wiki pages.


Question(s):

- Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?

I'm concerned about the delivery of this as previous requests for the backlog seemed to indicated significant turnaround time for CSM to receive a list. I do not have the original source but the statements from CCP indicated a release date coinciding with the December summit (at the time, five months).

- With the pending release of this information, will the CSM Wiki items finally receive their much needed "Issue ID" tags?

- Regarding the Wiki, does the CSM or CCP have thoughts or ideas on better management/administration? Of particular concern would be how players could participate, much like the existing model of WikiPedia for edits/submissions/corrections.

- Moving forward with the remaining CSM term and future CSM iterations, does the CSM or CCP have suggestions or tools in the works to further the efforts of the CSM candidacy (past and present)? Of particular interest would be the tagging of items in the patch notes themselves or even a streamlined method of proposal submission.

- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Makurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.

- Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?


I'm exited for the future. Though there's lots of work to do, baby steps are required before sprinting. Keep it up!

Sincerely,

JW ugh


Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Chribba on 17/09/2010 15:38:10
Interesting, and thank you CSM for that.

and edit/where can I get my hands on a preview of the new forums so I can modify eve-search as needed Laughing

/c

Dragon Greg
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 - [10]
 

Interesting list. Also interesting prioritisation there. I will admit that there is progress in waking CCP up in a few places, that is visible, but I had hoped for getting through to some points of perception that have recently demonstrated to be at the heart of so many issues.

On the positive side, if the winter expansion shows CCP can even not push such a restricted list, the recent media coverage and community communications can probably be considered smooth sailing before the storm in comparison Very Happy
Especially since what the expansion will really deliver and what follows when and what's in it.

AXE LEEII
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: AXE LEEII on 17/09/2010 15:40:01
I appreciate the CSM5s idea of being able to reconnect with Drones after logout, but.....

-I'd also like to see my Drones correct optimal in Drones Attributes when using mods.

-I'd like it possible to see my control range for Drones

-I'd like to see the control range removed from Sentries, as these are right next to me, so the control range is actually +/- 2000m

-And, if possible, some Drone related Implants.

Not much,
Thx

Very Happy

Silvana Wisla
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:37:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Silvana Wisla on 17/09/2010 15:38:40
I pray every night that learning skills are removed, please make this happen ; )
Everything else looks great.


BC From this moment on = before Cribba

^^ dam

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:44:00 - [13]
 

Darn it, didn't beat Chribba!!!

In the approximately 14 short weeks (YES ONLY 14! Even if it has sometimes seemed like 114!) since CSM5 has taken its seat, we have definitely seen a big improvement in communications with CCP and their willingness to collaborate in productive ways. It's a solid start...much work left to do, of course. But it's good progress...and I can't stress enough how much of that progress is the cumulative result of work done by all CSMs, not just CSM5. This is--as has been observed by others--a process...Rome wasn't built in a day. But we are getting there.

I'm pretty excited about the October meeting, to see what we learn there and how the "face to face" CSM/CCP relationship has evolved since June.

Thanks to all the CSM members who contributed to this blog and for the CCP folks who have engaged with us thus far.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 15:56:06
Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?



As you point out, that release is scheduled to be done by December. So it may take a while still. However, in the meantime (as we've seen in this blog), CCP can release information to us about backlog items that have been included in sprints.

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- With the pending release of this information, will the CSM Wiki items finally receive their much needed "Issue ID" tags?


Basically, the secretary of CSM 1 (Ankhesemtapemka) made an issue template in the spring of 2008, which included an issue ID. While in theory a potentially very useful attribute, we never really used it and just referred to issues by their name rather than their number/ID. The fact that future templates have retained the Issue ID attribute is a hold over from the old template I suspect.

Depending on the information CCP can make public to us, we'll either have to update the issues to include a proper ID, or remove the attribute alltogether.

While we're on the subject of the wiki - we're in the middle of going through all the CSM issues to make sure they are on the wiki and properly categorised (Resolved issues vs. Issues in Process). I know CSM1 and CSM3 are finished (because I did those :D), and CSM2 and CSM4 are being worked on at the moment.

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- Moving forward with the remaining CSM term and future CSM iterations, does the CSM or CCP have suggestions or tools in the works to further the efforts of the CSM candidacy (past and present)? Of particular interest would be the tagging of items in the patch notes themselves or even a streamlined method of proposal submission.


Tagging items in the patch notes is something we have discussed - but this requires items in CCPs backlog to be properly tagged as 'CSM items'. This was not the case, but our friendly CCP Dev Xhagen is working on resolving that :)

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Markurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.


Yes - we discussed this with CCP and made a list of our wishes and desires. However, there is still a difference between talking about it and actually making it (specifically, having the time and resources to make it). But is is definately something that could improve the process a lot

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?



Yes, we've currently planned for... three more blogs I think, with about 2 months between each blog.

Added:
BTW, I know everyone is really excited about some of the changes on the list (rockets \o/), but please remember that only the bold ones have been finished. And until it's in the patch notes, planning and releases can still change.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Rome wasn't built in a day. But we are getting there.


Maybe not, but Nero sure burnt it down in a day! LaughingYARRRR!!




Originally by: Mynxee

Thanks to all the CSM members who contributed to this blog and for the CCP folks who have engaged with us thus far.



And thank you to CSM members for sticking it out amid the differences of opinion and + personal trifes; it can't be easy all the time but so far, happy with the results. It's nice to see people working hard and being vocal, along with some "mom" looks to keep the others in line Wink

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.09.17 15:55:00 - [16]
 

I promised Mynxee and Trebor to come over and rabble about this blog. So here goes:

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ...

Seriously though, good blog. I'm glad CCP (now) also see that communication on this level is a positive way forward with corresponding results, and I do hope they keep moving forward in this direction. It is something that does means 'extra' work, but utilising the evident commitment of the CSM and the players they represent will have benefits far beyond what can be achieved by mere product marketing and PR. Clearly, this is not the time to rest on laurels ...

Naturally, compared to the long long list build up over several CSMs, the current list is somewhat short, with not enough musts and too many coulds. But the hope is that CCP has erred on the save side here, and that hopefully most of the coulds will be eventually get deployed next expansion anyway.

Having said that, this is clearly a step forward, and hopefully one that will be build on for next expansions, CSMs and iterations. More importantly there is a process of communication back-and-forth in place now which makes this far more transparent for everyone involved. There is still room for improvement, as there always is, and I do hope that the CSM will get their place at the stakeholder's table in person, but this is non-the-less a big improvement over the old situation.

Finally, I want to thank CCP and especially the CSM for publishing this blog. There is no small risk involved in doing so, so well done ...

Furthermore:

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE ...

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:02:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: SIEGE RED
I'm obviously a little frustrated that while this CSM has managed to get through to CCP far more then any previous CSM

I think it cannot be emphasized enough that without the hard work done by CSM1-4, CSM5 would not be in a position to make significant progress. And yes, working to figure out how to maximize the benefits of the process for both the players and CCP is a big part of what we're trying to do.

Originally by: "Johnathan Walker"
Is there an estimated time of release for the public version of the backlog?

Sorry for the confusion: these are the items in the CSM backlog that CCP is working to implement for the Winter Expansion. Note the caveat that this is not a 100% guarantee that all of these things will make it -- this is what they are trying to do.

I will defer to others in the CSM regarding your process questions, except to say that I am generally in favor of building tools as long as the cost-benefit is there, and as long as they are player-built, as I would not support diverting CCP resources to building CSM tools.

Originally by: "Johnathan Walker"
Would the CSM consider releasing blogs of this scale/content in the future on a regular basis, for example every three months?

I would expect that there will be regular updates from the CSM, if there is sufficient interest.

AXE LEEII: regarding your drone requests, you should consider putting up an Assembly Hall thread to gather drone-related ideas that CSM can consider and put in-process to CCP.


Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:03:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 16:08:40
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

CCP can release information to us about backlog items that have been included in sprints.


Awesome, looking forward to it!

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

Tagging items in the patch notes is something we have discussed - but this requires items in CCPs backlog to be properly tagged as 'CSM items'. This was not the case, but our friendly CCP Dev Xhagen is working on resolving that :)



- Am I correct in interpreting that CSM-submitted issues were not properly documented, which may have contributed to previously mentioned delays in the release of requested information? Hooray for resolution work going on in the meantime, though! Any plans to prevent this from occurring in the future, perhaps by interfacing with existing software/procedures at CCP's office(s)?

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

However, there is still a difference between talking about it and actually making it (specifically, having the time and resources to make it). But is is definately something that could improve the process a lot.



- Sounds like something that the player community can help with; maybe getting in touch with those fine folks mentioned and committing to a long-term plan?

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

Yes, we've currently planned for... three more blogs I think, with about 2 months between each blog.




Excellent! Looking forward to it!

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Sorry for the confusion: these are the items in the CSM backlog that CCP is working to implement for the Winter Expansion. Note the caveat that this is not a 100% guarantee that all of these things will make it -- this is what they are trying to do.

I will defer to others in the CSM regarding your process questions, except to say that I am generally in favor of building tools as long as the cost-benefit is there, and as long as they are player-built, as I would not support diverting CCP resources to building CSM tools.



Thank you Trebor, and of course the caveat is important. Even the best intentions sometimes pave the road to hell Twisted Evil Wink

Thanks for the feedback, DV, Treb and Mynxee! I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone at CSM5 ugh

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker

- Regarding the Wiki, does the CSM or CCP have thoughts or ideas on better management/administration? Of particular concern would be how players could participate, much like the existing model of WikiPedia for edits/submissions/corrections.

- Does the CSM/CCP have any interest in player-created tools which may assist in decreasing the workload the CSM faces when sifting through the Assembly Hall? One potential solution that comes to mind is Nebula, put forward by a collection of pilots on irc.coldfront.net #excellence, with Ix_Forres, Makurid, Seleene and a handful of other like minded pilots.



Due to work deadlines today, I don't have time to address all your questions, JW, but wanted to touch on these two.

CSM has been discussing various approaches to better wiki maintenance...it's a big project all by itself, with lots of concerns and questions. I'm working on the CSM2 issue updates right now...got a bunch sorted, a bunch yet to go.

Having been involved with the Nebula initiative led by Ix Forres, I want to publicly thank everyone involved for the very professional efforts undertaken on that project so far. I hope we can find a way/reason to continue it, as there is a serious need for a tool (and adopting processes that are augmented by the use of such a tool). I hope we get a chance to discuss this in Iceland in October...if so, it'd be nice to show CCP and the rest of CSM screenshots of the Nebula project to demonstrate the amount of work has been done.

In my view, the EVE community is a gigantic brain trust and powerhouse that could do TONS to support CSM work and thereby become active agents of change alongside the CSM. I think all quality efforts in that regard should be encouraged -- especially by CCP.


Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:13:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker
- Am I correct in interpreting that CSM-submitted issues were not properly documented, which may have contributed to previously mentioned delays in the release of requested information?


Depends on your definition of 'properly documented' :P

As we understand it, the CSM issues were entered into CCP's backlog in exactly the same way as all other proposals and issues were entered in the backlog. This means that although our issues are in there, they are not easily identifyable as being a 'CSM issue'. It's that CSM tag that CCP Xhagen is working on.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:21:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/09/2010 16:24:37
another csm blog..

Everyone repeat after me. THE CSM IS GOOD. THE CSM IS AWESOME.

How does the saying go?

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

hmm seems to be turning out true?

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/09/2010 16:28:06
Originally by: Mynxee

CSM has been discussing various approaches to better wiki maintenance...it's a big project all by itself, with lots of concerns and questions. I'm working on the CSM2 issue updates right now...got a bunch sorted, a bunch yet to go.



Awesome, glad to see the hard work already. Cool Looking forward to hearing about the new procedures, in due time of course!

Originally by: Mynxee

Having been involved with the Nebula initiative led by Ix Forres, I want to publicly thank everyone involved for the very professional efforts undertaken on that project so far. I hope we can find a way/reason to continue it, as there is a serious need for a tool (and adopting processes that are augmented by the use of such a tool). I hope we get a chance to discuss this in Iceland in October...if so, it'd be nice to show CCP and the rest of CSM screenshots of the Nebula project to demonstrate the amount of work has been done.


=grin= Any ideas about encouraging other CSM members to come participate in discussion? We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.

Originally by: Mynxee

In my view, the EVE community is a gigantic brain trust and powerhouse that could do TONS to support CSM work and thereby become active agents of change alongside the CSM. I think all quality efforts in that regard should be encouraged -- especially by CCP.



Agreed; free Quafe for all? Cool Should be fun hearing about October's meeting; sounds like there's going to be a lot of jabbering and swapping of ideas. ugh



Originally by: Dierdra Vaal

Depends on your definition of 'properly documented' :P

As we understand it, the CSM issues were entered into CCP's backlog in exactly the same way as all other proposals and issues were entered in the backlog. This means that although our issues are in there, they are not easily identifyable as being a 'CSM issue'. It's that CSM tag that CCP Xhagen is working on.



Ah some clarification then....

In short, there was some contained concern that the items weren't even *in* the backlog to begin with and instead lay on someone's bar-napkin left over from the last Fan Fest. Of course, this might have been due mostly to being left in the dark about the work ongoing by CSM members and CCP staff; it wasn't clear to us via the wiki ID tag or meeting minutes as to how CCP was tracking these things. A few initiatives by some players further added to this fire of doubt; we could not figure out what the delay was.

Of course, mashing CSM requests into the massive monster of other goodies would be a great explanation, particularly if they were not tagged. :) I'd be happy to help wherever needed; CSM has a lot on their plate already! ugh

Give Xhagen a wet sloppy kiss from me for his/her efforts Twisted Evil


=verrrryyy happy and excited=



Originally by: Jason Edwards
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/09/2010 16:24:37
another csm blog..

Everyone repeat after me. THE CSM IS GOOD. THE CSM IS AWESOME.

How does the saying go?

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

hmm seems to be turning out true?



Seems you have concerns and issues there Jason... mind going into detail? I'm sure the community at large is divided and that your beliefs may be shared by a few folks; maybe we can work together on fixing the sore points? Very Happy

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:26:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:32:44
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:50
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/09/2010 16:30:30
Originally by: Jason Edwards

another csm blog..



The previous CSM blog was the one posted at the end of the CSM3 term. I'm sure we haven't been overdoing it :P

Originally by: Jonathan Walker
We would greatly value their feedback and any requirements.

I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.

Katilyn Swin
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 17/09/2010 16:24:37
another csm blog..

Everyone repeat after me. THE CSM IS GOOD. THE CSM IS AWESOME.

How does the saying go?

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

hmm seems to be turning out true?


trolololo
1/10

Caphelo
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:31:00 - [25]
 

Fixing hybrids doesn't even rate a "Won't," FEEL THE LOVE FOR GALLENTE BABY!!

Good blog though, keep it up.

Mieryn Caval
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:35:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
As the new features of the Winter expansion (and in particular, CSM-related items) are deployed for testing, your feedback is essential.

It's always essential, and usually ignored. Different this time, you say? Ok.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:39:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I wasn't even aware that actual development had happened/was happening, but I'm assuming mynxee showed you the photo of the lists we made on a whiteboard in Reykjavik in June (or perhaps a nicely formatted list). That list contained all the desires and requirements from the CSM.


Really? I mentioned this project a few meetings ago, in the Other Business part of the agenda (maybe you weren't present at that meeting, though). I am sure I posted the link to the project site either via our mailing list or in our forums, can't recall atm. Maybe both. But here's the link again for easy reference.

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:48:00 - [28]
 

This is a very positive first step.

Are CSM totally happy with the selected issues?
Well we took them from the Assembly hall where players raised them and passed them to CCP so yes, we (collectively) wanted to see these changes. Of course we would also like many other items looked at in a reasonable timeframe and players are always raising new issues to be pushed to CCP. With 6 months left in office we're certainly not done yet Smile

Special thanks to all the players who raised, commented and voted on Assembly Hall proposals and those that contribute to the discussions in the Jita Park Speakers Corner.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:54:00 - [29]
 

Whatever else happens during CSM5's tenure, they got sort by meta done, so CSM5 is a success in my book. Anything else that is accomplished is icing on the cake.

Wacoede
Amarr
Swag Co.
Sandbox Bullies
Posted - 2010.09.17 16:55:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
Could: As a Player, I can see the meta level of items in a column in item detail list views, so that I can easily get an overview of the quality of the items in the list.


that one item has justified my faith in the CSM

as a mission runner I do get a lot of crap so being able to quickly sort out the good stuff is gonna be a huge bonus

a big TY to Dierdra Vaal for raising it and to all the CSM for supporting it


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