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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.18 10:54:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
Originally by: HalfArse
I dont understand why people keep going on about "catching up". ...
In eve this makes no sense. It makes no difference if someone else has more sp than you,
1) The facts prove this wrong.
No. What you're measuring is "development cost", which has nothing to do with catching up. The fact of "catching up" is that the only thing you'll have some trouble catching up with (but only "some trouble" — it's still within the realm of possibility) is total SP. As it happens, total SP is an entirely pointless metric. It only tells you one thing: how expensive the clone is to upgrade/update. In every sense where "catching up" is meaningful, catching up in EVE is not only possible, but actually very very easy.
Quote:
2) Even if it were true, people make decisions on trivial stuff like their games, based upon their perceptions not extensively researched analysis
Yes, that's the whole issue that needs to be educated away as early as possible: based on zero knowledge of the game, they assume that total SP has any meaning, and then derive completely false conclusions based on this incorrect assumption. Explaining this from the get-go might help, but it's an uphill struggle since most new players haven't seen a game where "XP" (or its equivalent) doesn't scale with "power"… (and that's not even touching the equally flawed assumption that SP is the EVE equivalent of XP).

Khanaris Asgarth
Eternium Industries
Posted - 2010.09.18 10:59:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
Originally by: HalfArse
I dont understand why people keep going on about "catching up". ...
In eve this makes no sense. It makes no difference if someone else has more sp than you,
1) The facts prove this wrong.
No. What you're measuring is "development cost", which has nothing to do with catching up. The fact of "catching up" is that the only thing you'll have some trouble catching up with (but only "some trouble" — it's still within the realm of possibility) is total SP. As it happens, total SP is an entirely pointless metric. It only tells you one thing: how expensive the clone is to upgrade/update. In every sense where "catching up" is meaningful, catching up in EVE is not only possible, but actually very very easy.
Quote:
2) Even if it were true, people make decisions on trivial stuff like their games, based upon their perceptions not extensively researched analysis
Yes, that's the whole issue that needs to be educated away as early as possible: based on zero knowledge of the game, they assume that total SP has any meaning, and then derive completely false conclusions based on this incorrect assumption. Explaining this from the get-go might help, but it's an uphill struggle since most new players haven't seen a game where "XP" (or its equivalent) doesn't scale with "power"… (and that's not even touching the equally flawed assumption that SP is the EVE equivalent of XP).


Couldn't agree more with the second part. Too many people starting out realize how many SP older players have and feel they'll never be able to outclass them. Which is not true at all.

Abduakla
Posted - 2010.09.18 12:21:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Abduakla on 18/09/2010 12:22:48
Originally by: Khanaris Asgarth
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood
Originally by: HalfArse
I dont understand why people keep going on about "catching up". ...
In eve this makes no sense. It makes no difference if someone else has more sp than you,
1) The facts prove this wrong.
No. What you're measuring is "development cost", which has nothing to do with catching up. The fact of "catching up" is that the only thing you'll have some trouble catching up with (but only "some trouble" — it's still within the realm of possibility) is total SP. As it happens, total SP is an entirely pointless metric. It only tells you one thing: how expensive the clone is to upgrade/update. In every sense where "catching up" is meaningful, catching up in EVE is not only possible, but actually very very easy.
Quote:
2) Even if it were true, people make decisions on trivial stuff like their games, based upon their perceptions not extensively researched analysis
Yes, that's the whole issue that needs to be educated away as early as possible: based on zero knowledge of the game, they assume that total SP has any meaning, and then derive completely false conclusions based on this incorrect assumption. Explaining this from the get-go might help, but it's an uphill struggle since most new players haven't seen a game where "XP" (or its equivalent) doesn't scale with "power"… (and that's not even touching the equally flawed assumption that SP is the EVE equivalent of XP).


Couldn't agree more with the second part. Too many people starting out realize how many SP older players have and feel they'll never be able to outclass them. Which is not true at all.


Except having 20mil+ SP sually means you have max powergrid/cpu/cap/armor/shield/targetrange/targetspeed/speed/agility/resistances on your ship (no matter what it is you flying) + the t2 turrets/EWAR/drones/tank that your ship requires.

Meanwhile at sub-5million million SP, you dont' even have enough powergrid/cpu to fill all your slots with t1 mods. I'm talking about trouble fitting t1 frigates/destroyers too.

Luminak Narz
Posted - 2010.09.18 15:08:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Abduakla


Except having 20mil+ SP sually means you have max powergrid/cpu/cap/armor/shield/targetrange/targetspeed/speed/agility/resistances on your ship (no matter what it is you flying) + the t2 turrets/EWAR/drones/tank that your ship requires.

Meanwhile at sub-5million million SP, you dont' even have enough powergrid/cpu to fill all your slots with t1 mods. I'm talking about trouble fitting t1 frigates/destroyers too.


What he said.

Quit pretending that skillpoints don't matter. They may not be as important over a long period of time, but they are certainly very important in the first 6 months to 1 year, especially considering that you have to put all this stupid time into learning skills. Contrast this to a game like WoW, where you can power level a toon to 80 in about 3-4 months. I know I know, you all hate WoW, GB2WoW, on and on. I just saying that's what the vast, vast, vast majority of gamers expect. Thus answers one of the fundemental questions as to why there aren't many people subscribing to Eve: The game creates a game mechanic and progression system that most gamers neither relate to, or find entertaining. As long as the game mechanic remains unchanged, it will always be a game for niche players.

On the other hand, I truly feel that if they could figure out how to make more balanced PvP easily accessable for new players, have much more dynamic, and engaging PvE (that also includes new players), and made the UI more visually pleasing and user friendly, you will still capture way more subscribers that would simply *tolerate* the vague progression system. Simply put, make the game more fun for newbies. Given the way the game is designed, that's no easy task.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.18 15:35:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Opertone on 18/09/2010 15:36:57
I confess, I quit EvE once... It was all huge, massive experience, exploring space, numerous chat windows, my first MMO ever. But... there was pirates and I could not kick their butt, my skills were very low, my budget was negligible. My university studies outweighed my playing times, my credit card ran out and I totally forgot about eve for maybe 1.5 years.

I was sad and depressed, hungry and cold, in a college residence, when I started considering what video Games my laptop could run at the time. I tried an RTS (2003), but it was as fast as a wooden brick, then I recalled eve online... This is when my eve really started for me, I was abroad, my CC was full and I had nothing to do.

I came back home and kept on playing eve, until I met a GirlFriend... Now I have a job, no girl and no eve. EvE is all that I need

ninja edit: Oh, and btw, I really started enjoying eve when they introduced plex for ISK thing, I remember trading around 20 plexes for in game currency - I had one special 1.5 bill kestrel

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2010.09.18 16:14:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Veteran CEO X posting on various EVE-related forums:
"u can get into pvp in 2-6 weeks!! FAKT!!1"


Exactly..who wants to wait that long? That means you cant do much on your trail..and leave.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.18 16:32:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Luminak Narz
Quit pretending that skillpoints don't matter. They may not be as important over a long period of time, but they are certainly very important in the first 6 months to 1 year, especially considering that you have to put all this stupid time into learning skills.
Maybe, but that's a completely different complaint than the "can't catch up" fallacy.

Yes. Domain relevant skill points matter. They are also finite, and you can always catch up in this realm. This is basically what Abduakla's post illustrates: once you get to 20M, you've maxed out the whole "fitting" domain. You have now, for all perpetuity, become as good as you can possible be and no-one will ever be able to surpass you.

The problem is that players who aren't familiar with the skill system — and in particular new players who are used to a XP/level/class kind of game progression — can't conceptualise the difference between these domain-relevant SP (which matter, but where you will catch up) and total SP (which don't matter, and where you might not be able to catch up… not that it matters).

Corozan Aspinall
Perkone
Posted - 2010.09.18 16:35:00 - [128]
 

I'm with Tippia on the sp issue. They only matter to me in so far as they block/grant full access to game content - that annoyed me more than any perceived inbalance or inhability to compete with older players. Why would you expect parity anyway?

I may be wrong (as usual) but I'd hazard a guess that almost all the active toons in this mmo are specialists anyway. I only know a hand-full of single account, single character players who can do 'everything'. Or want that setup with the hassle of juggling jump clones and having vendettas follow them around etc.

Mindnut
Posted - 2010.09.18 17:48:00 - [129]
 

I have a few friends and a brother to whom I showed this game and ofc I tried to convince them it’s really cool, hehe. Here’s a few things they said about the game and why they don’t like it.

Chris - I don’t like that nothing is happening, there is nothing exciting about this game. All you do is shoot at these red crosses, are they actually ships?
Mind – yeah, I’ll zoom in to show you
After a few minutes of observing the lvl4 mission Chris started yawning – so you do missions all day? How many are there?
Mind – er…
Chris – They repeat? This would get really boring, really fast.
Mind – No wait, there is also 0.0 space where players fight each other, wait I’ll show you.
After flying 10 jumps trying to find a target in low sec Chris started complaining again. I tried to explain that in fleets it really gets exciting but he just wouldn’t listen.
Chris – yeah, but you’re not in a fleet now and it’s boring
Mind – yeah but you can stay in null sec all the time
Chris – what if I can’t find a fleet?

Ralph didn’t like the fact that we’re all stuck to the ships and can’t walk around the stations Rolling Eyes

My brother doesn’t like compromises in the game. Ofc every game has them since you can’t create a real world in a computer but as my bro said…
Mike – The game isn’t finished. Why is that ship warping through the station? You could see its inside for a second, that sux. lol, you just warped though the planet, are they moving?
Mind – nah, that would probably kill the server.
Mike - Why didn’t they place it somewhere else then? It’s not moving anyway… FAIL
Mind – I don’t know Neutral
Mike – lol, you’re flying UP in space. Since when does the space have up and down?
Mind - I don’t actually mind that, it helps with orientation
Mike – but it sux, lol
He laughs at me when I mine asteroids telling me it’s brainwashing, hehe

I remember when I first joined almost 3 years ago. I was looking for multiplayer space ship game but not like EVE. I wanted to fly the ship as the pilot, I was looking for a simulator. I was really disappointed with eve at first but after an hour of game play I got sucked in and stayed. I saw a potential the game had in other things not related to combat and fighting. I like industry, if it wasn’t for industry and my friends/corp I’d leave a long time ago. I just don't like the "invention" bit. How can you invent something all over again and how can you fail when you invented it a weak ago. The game mechanics are fine but why call it invention? Couldn't it be named "upgrade" from t1 bpc to t2 bpc?

Today I can honestly say that I’m slowly getting tired of EVE. I don’t know how much longer I’m going to subscribe. I'm having a hard time finding a job so I’m constantly grinding for isk to keep my 3 accounts running. The limited number of missions make it quite boring. I wish there was more cosmos agents I had standing for cause I like exploring and doing cosmos missions. Not many complexes with a beacon out there either. Wherever you go the space is all the same and landmarks that have recently been added don't give much reason for exploring.

I’d love to get my hands on some 0.0 space but without a 500 man alliance it’s really no use and I don’t like slug-fests. I also think that the space should be a lot bigger to allow smaller alliances to claim systems. Smaller alliances mean smaller conflicts and battles... Instead we’re all forced to join the big ones…

If you go to a noob system and look you'll see a lot of people joining the game every day. The number of players on the sarver isn't growing fast so that means a lot of people that are leaving EVE every day. I think that responsible for this is the lack of content. If you're not a pvp lover you'll get bored sooner or later.

Jenny Hawk
State War Academy
Posted - 2010.09.19 08:53:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Jenny Hawk on 19/09/2010 10:10:51
o
Since I don't play that long yet I've only tried to get 2 of my friends into EVE, both quit after the 3 week trial

Old Guild Wars friend:
* so you're only a tiny little picture and not a real person? And you can never get out of your ship and you can't customize your ship?
* Everyone is just crosses or dots and you don't even see each other's ships in stations?
* are these missions really all the same!? Just shoot and kill?
* is there ever any need to play together? I miss the teamwork thing, it's almost a single player game with chat?!
* so it takes a year to fly a battleship and have the right skills maxed out?
* why does everything take so long?
* why is everybody afk all the time?

My nephew (former hardcore WoW player)
* so there's no arena or battlefields and fights are never equal? That sucks!
* so it takes 10+ years to be able to max your professions (manufacturing) and play all classes (fly all ships and corresponding roles)? In WoW I can skill up one character of each class within 1-1.5 years and then I can do everything.
* You can only train 1 character on your account? SO you have to buy 3 accounts if you want to have 3 characters that you can train? That's a lot of money!
* So you can legally buy characters and money? What is this, some kind of asian game?

Good things I've heard:
- at least unlimited storage capacity!
- no linear gameplay and you can go everywhere without level restrictions
- very good crafting (manufacturing) and trade system

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2010.09.19 09:45:00 - [131]
 

So long as incarna eventually lets me shoot a WT in the head while he sits at the bar in station I think it will be a great addition. Oherwise if incarna becomes a fun way to stay docked up for hours while your WT's can't touch you in station. I'll eventually just disable my account and go play the starwars mmo.

Rematusen
Posted - 2010.09.19 10:16:00 - [132]
 


Luckily there are more Space/High tech MMOs in the development stage, hopefully these will come to fruition and spark a fire under CCP to fix the game's lacking areas.Embarassed


Black Prophecy for one that will knock a big dent in eve if they dont do something soon... and for those of you who say its ftp game it will never work.... hmm lets see 300m isk to get 30 days of game play how long does that take to make oh thats right 1-3 days for most players so eve is free to play as well.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.19 11:06:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Rematusen
and for those of you who say its ftp game it will never work.... hmm lets see 300m isk to get 30 days of game play how long does that take to make oh thats right 1-3 days for most players so eve is free to play as well.
Just because you don't pay any money doesn't make the game free-to-play — your subscription is still paid for in full (actually, in more than full since you've opted for the most expensive payment option).

Jones Bones
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2010.09.19 11:44:00 - [134]
 

There's a reason EvE players always come crawling back...because no game will ever offer what it has. A cold, unforgiving universe of destruction and creation.

gfldex
Posted - 2010.09.19 14:37:00 - [135]
 

The reason why so few ppl stick with EVE is that CCP tries to sell an online world while players want to buy an online game.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.19 15:04:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Jones Bones
There's a reason EvE players always come crawling back...because no game will ever offer what it has. A cold, unforgiving universe of destruction and creation.

Actually that whole cold part is way overrated. The strength of eve is that it is open ended, that is why i started and why i still play a bit besides bitter vetting. But lets be realistic, PVE is just sad system, and PVP is at the very least 90-95% of the time spending looking for someone to shoot. Now people say it shouldnt be otherwise, but i still would like it way more if there was a simple way to get ~good~ fights. And yes some will say you are doing it wrong if you get an equal fight, but maybe you are doing it wrong if you think that. It is only true if your goal is winning and getting more isk, not if your goal is to have fun.

White Ra
Posted - 2010.09.19 15:46:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Azshann
Edited by: Azshann on 15/09/2010 04:25:13
For a long time I had been searching for a game that could fulfill my desires. I found that game when I started playing EvE. I suspect that this game became more immerse than originally intended by the developers, this is of course a good thing.

Why would any ADULT leave this game and go back to another MMO?

Will DUST 514 possibly increase the EvE population?


It's not the game overall; Eve has full potential- it's just the grit of the game; like unfamiliar interfaces and slow game play; transition like web design to the price for unforgiving steep. It's a slow game and that's why lots of old farts play it lol add a new generation and get new ideas.

Take an example of marketing/business deals;actions, triggers like other bigger gaming companies do and compete on, Eve has yet to transition unlike other co's like Blizz- and such but the game is still promising.

Just add a lil' bit of flavor to it and get it out of the cavern where all vets and old peeps hug on and cringe and it will be huge, let's see Incarna and Dust for example if there'd be a "walking on stations" and the stuff like that.

Eve needs some new blood but it's said that its just been recently out of it's unknown stage; make it mainstream, get it to the states not just in Euro- I know Asia also has a CCP/EvE server on Taiwan or something.


White Ra
Posted - 2010.09.19 15:53:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Luminak Narz
Originally by: Abduakla


Except having 20mil+ SP sually means you have max powergrid/cpu/cap/armor/shield/targetrange/targetspeed/speed/agility/resistances on your ship (no matter what it is you flying) + the t2 turrets/EWAR/drones/tank that your ship requires.

Meanwhile at sub-5million million SP, you dont' even have enough powergrid/cpu to fill all your slots with t1 mods. I'm talking about trouble fitting t1 frigates/destroyers too.


What he said.

Quit pretending that skillpoints don't matter. They may not be as important over a long period of time, but they are certainly very important in the first 6 months to 1 year, especially considering that you have to put all this stupid time into learning skills. Contrast this to a game like WoW, where you can power level a toon to 80 in about 3-4 months. I know I know, you all hate WoW, GB2WoW, on and on. I just saying that's what the vast, vast, vast majority of gamers expect. Thus answers one of the fundemental questions as to why there aren't many people subscribing to Eve: The game creates a game mechanic and progression system that most gamers neither relate to, or find entertaining. As long as the game mechanic remains unchanged, it will always be a game for niche players.

On the other hand, I truly feel that if they could figure out how to make more balanced PvP easily accessable for new players, have much more dynamic, and engaging PvE (that also includes new players), and made the UI more visually pleasing and user friendly, you will still capture way more subscribers that would simply *tolerate* the vague progression system. Simply put, make the game more fun for newbies. Given the way the game is designed, that's no easy task.


This and + on UI
But no if Eve can get out there it's a whole new language and bar to other mmo platforms

Taylor Lautner
Posted - 2010.09.19 15:58:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Rematusen

Luckily there are more Space/High tech MMOs in the development stage, hopefully these will come to fruition and spark a fire under CCP to fix the game's lacking areas.Embarassed


Black Prophecy for one that will knock a big dent in eve if they dont do something soon... and for those of you who say its ftp game it will never work.... hmm lets see 300m isk to get 30 days of game play how long does that take to make oh thats right 1-3 days for most players so eve is free to play as well.


This.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.09.19 16:00:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R
It does require quite a bit of more timer per play session too though. Been in that boat myself, quiting for several months at a time because Anything in EVE requires longer play sessions.

For example, I could log into WoW, do an instance or a battleground for 15-20 mins and finish it. In EVE you're easily busy for an hour or more on anything serious pvp related.


You really have no idea what you're talking about.

WoW is terrible because it is FULL of forced time-sinks.

RAW23
Posted - 2010.09.19 17:35:00 - [141]
 

Why would people quit? Some possible reasons:

1. The political culture of CCP not living up to expectations (e.g. forum censorship; arbitrary actions; totalitarian TOS; rarity of apologies; QEN as advertising tool, etc.).

2. Many of the games' core activities (missioning, PI, industry (esp. invention), 0.01isk trading) are deathly boring after a very short while. The interesting things, on the whole, are what players build around the game CCP provides, not the game content itself.

3. The interesting things mentioned in 2 above are often high maintenance / time-consuming and difficult to keep up with if you have limited play-time.

4. Eve is a jerk-magnet where people frequently allow themselves to be at their most unpleasant.


On the other hand, 2, 3 and 4 are also the things that make eve uniquely interesting. Point 1 is the only thing that really tempts me to quit as I was initially attracted to the game largely by CCP's socio-political rhetoric. I remember reading an interview with the CEO of CCP in which he said that eve was special because it was more like a virtual nation than a game. What he didn't say was that in this nation justice is arbitrary and the political system is totalitarian. But then, these are the things that wind me up about the real world too and I doubt many others games are much different on this front. Razz

Edenn
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.19 19:53:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Edenn on 19/09/2010 19:56:21
I guess everyhitng is wrong.
There are no new people because EvE is not new-player-friendly. This is the most important thing.
Had 3 friends refused to play this game because of that, like you have to train half of a year to do things normally.
Like getting in BS in 1st month is bullsh*t, if you're not stupid and do not want to waste 10x more time then others you have to train Learnings and other stuff.
When people learn that they think of leaving.

It has nothing to do with skill/challenging/hard. When the game is challenging it is interesting for 90% of people.
I left this game 2 times because of crappy pvp. Flying for 2-3 hrs and doing nothing is boring. (not counting corp/alliance wars)
Usually I grab some coffe when I play EvE because it gets me sleepy if there is no war.

Also economy is bad here too.
I understand this is interesting for some people, but for me it's a waste of time to run an alt on L4 when the rest of the corp sleeps, and I have nothing to do.
What people like about WoW is fast placed PvP and lots of actions.
EvE's pvp is like pressin' 3 buttons and watching what happends literally.
Especially when you fly 'ceptor or something close to it.
One day you can loose a lot of ships and will have to work on money, if you're not-friendly to Jita.

Nicholas Barker
Deez Nuts.
Posted - 2010.09.19 21:27:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: FOEHAMMER006
As of yesterday I blame halo reach.


That craze is pretty limited to North America, and the last ones faded fast even there.

I give it 2 weeks tops until we never hear of it again.


Haha, like dust right? riiight?

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.09.19 21:42:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Nicholas Barker
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: FOEHAMMER006
As of yesterday I blame halo reach.


That craze is pretty limited to North America, and the last ones faded fast even there.

I give it 2 weeks tops until we never hear of it again.


Haha, like dust right? riiight?


Sadly, that's a long peak for console FPS games. Been saying since first hearing of DUST that it's a pretty fast moving market. Roughly 10 new FPS games a week are churned out for consoles. If they don't release it for PC it'll fade into obscurity in no time.

Ruhige Schmerz
New Eden Scientific Association
Posted - 2010.09.20 00:14:00 - [145]
 

Off and on player here for 4 years now. My account has never lapsed, but I do take breaks every year for anywhere from 1-3 months. For me, PvP is where the fun is, and PvE is where the (almost fun) money is. The missions aren't challenging, but they're still "fun" when you have friends along on voice comms to pass the time etc.

I've invited my share of people to EvE. One is perhaps going to join soon and try it out; he's a bigtime WoW player and so I don't hold a lot of hope that it will 'stick', and none of the others have, either. The learning curve is too steep and unforgiving.

There are many reasons given in the thread so far, and for the most part, they are all covered. I have to say however, that the game is indeed geared more towards the criminal than the law abiding citizen; the highsec war dec system is probably the worst part of it.

Newbie corps of RL friends are set upon by highsec gankfest hyenas who's entire idea of "fun" is making life miserable for others. There's no challenge in it, no honor, and no real profit. This alone drives the whole "join up with a vet corp/alliance if you want to survive" mentality. I'd love say, if you're in highsec and start shooting someone, aggro or not, wardec or not, everyone in the game is free to shoot at you.

I don't want highsec to be without risk, but the griefers need more risk introduced to their activities while in highsec.

I love the sandbox. I love the idea that 'nowhere is safe'. What I don't love is that "griefers" have the easiest time of any type of player.

As for Dust; if it's as massive as eve and is released for PC, it will outlast Eve itself. There is NO MMOFPS anymore; just as EvE is the only mmo spaceships, Planetside is the only (real) MMOFPS, and it's basically 'dead' except for veterans. That's still not bad for an FPS that's been running for 10 years. Being released for the PC, and being MMO, are the keys to success there.

Orange Lagomorph
Posted - 2010.09.20 00:41:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz
Newbie corps of RL friends are set upon by highsec gankfest hyenas who's entire idea of "fun" is making life miserable for others. There's no challenge in it, no honor, and no real profit. This alone drives the whole "join up with a vet corp/alliance if you want to survive" mentality.


Finally, someone with their head screwed on straight. Thank you.

I'll not try to piggyback my opinions onto yours and/or put words in your mouth. Suffice it to say, I agree with this statement, and it's one aspect of EVE — among many I've already mentioned — that I believe contributes to the fact that there aren't more people subscribing to EVE. Which is what this thread is about.

When I argue that steep SP minimum requirements to join most serious PvP organizations drive away prospective new players, people whine and whinge at me, hurl insults, explain all the ways in which I'm completely wrong, how exceptions are often made, etc. They say that THEY did it, so anyone can do it. All it takes is patience, gumption, etc.

That may technically be true, but my counter-argument is simple: Not everyone thinks, learns and and acts the same way. That is probably why EVE has so very few women, because you have to be stubborn as a hog and bloody-minded to plow through the BS. There are plenty of people who might make excellent EVE pilots who simply don't bother starting the game, because on top of the learning curve, it's become progressively more top-heavy and rookie-unfriendly over the years — and even if you don't believe that's true, it certainly looks that way to outsiders.

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz
I love the sandbox. I love the idea that 'nowhere is safe'. What I don't love is that "griefers" have the easiest time of any type of player.


No kidding. Suicide gankers know they're going to pop, and take calculated risks that quickly become routine and largely irrelevant. No one attacks suicide gankers themselves, because their ships are worthless. Wardec griefers choose weaklings to pick on who can't fight back 99% of the time.

These people have it far easier than the people they're griefing, and when some update or mechanics change doesn't go their way, OH LORD... I can guarantee you there'll be a gigantic whine threadnaught on the forum.

And then if you post something like I just posted, you'll have a storm of ****ing imbeciles flaming you about GB2WOW, when actually I've just suggested that perhaps making the game more difficult is in order. Funny, griefers and others who have an easy time of it only babble about GB2WOW when you suggest making things more difficult for them.

youliekmudkipz
Posted - 2010.09.20 00:58:00 - [147]
 

because you need to much to actually play the game on a level at least somehow comparable to the elder players

you need at least 5m sp in engineering, electronics, learnings, stuff like that

Newb:"hey look at my shiny new battleship"
Pro:"where are your t2 guns, shields, invul fields, drones ? please come back when you can use them"
Newb:" :("

2 months later
Newb:"hey look at my shiny equipped battleship with all the shiny t2 stuff, i managed to get it capstable !"
Pro:"dude, its hac time, please show up in one, otherwise we wont need you"
Newb:":("

another 2 months later
Newb:"hey, look at my shiny hac with all my shiny stuff"
Pirate:"pop"
Newb:"/ragequit"

add another 2 months for training for a hulk at the top !


Ruhige Schmerz
New Eden Scientific Association
Posted - 2010.09.20 01:23:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Ruhige Schmerz on 20/09/2010 01:23:27
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph

When I argue that steep SP minimum requirements to join most serious PvP organizations drive away prospective new players, people whine and whinge at me, hurl insults, explain all the ways in which I'm completely wrong, how exceptions are often made, etc. They say that THEY did it, so anyone can do it. All it takes is patience, gumption, etc.



Agreed, this is part of the "problem." I've never joined a corp or alliance that had a minimum SP requirement, nor will I ever, even if I meet the requirements. It's such a poor judge of worth that I question the overall intelligence and wisdom of people who make such requirements.

That said, they're free to continue to have such requirements and enforce them, it's somewhat irrelevant to my main issue, which is that starting a new corp is nearly suicidal for a group of non-veterans. There are a lot of really cowardly "pvp" corps living in highsec that simply patrol around looking for 'new' corps of industrialists and miners, and wardec them for a little easy cash.

It may be worthwhile to create a new flag on every character, an aggression timer that's a month long. If nobody in a corp has this flag, then the CEO/directors can set the corp "nonviolent" or something, which prevents them from declaring war or being the target of a wardec. If any of their players engage in an act of aggression (in any sec-level of space), the flag is removed from the corp, and cannot be set again until the timer(s) expire.

All of the members of the corp could still be suicide ganked, victims if can flipping, scammed, etc. The only effect would be preventing wardecs in highsec against corps that are trying to be "good citizens."


Originally by: Orange Lagomorph

No kidding. Suicide gankers know they're going to pop, and take calculated risks that quickly become routine and largely irrelevant. No one attacks suicide gankers themselves, because their ships are worthless. Wardec griefers choose weaklings to pick on who can't fight back 99% of the time.

These people have it far easier than the people they're griefing, and when some update or mechanics change doesn't go their way, OH LORD... I can guarantee you there'll be a gigantic whine threadnaught on the forum.

And then if you post something like I just posted, you'll have a storm of ****ing imbeciles flaming you about GB2WOW, when actually I've just suggested that perhaps making the game more difficult is in order. Funny, griefers and others who have an easy time of it only babble about GB2WOW when you suggest making things more difficult for them.


Take comfort in the fact that those same clowns screaming are also the ones doing the griefing, and as such, their opinions are worthless. They're the same guys tossing grenades into their own spawn in an FPS until they get banned, etc.

Ronald Raygunn
Amarr
Inferi Legion
Posted - 2010.09.20 05:04:00 - [149]
 

I've seen a lot of good responses one way or the other, so anything I say will probably be a rehash but I'm going to add my two cents to the cacophony...

In response to the OP:

I felt exactly the way you do now with EVE when i first started playing it too. It was fresh and different, a MMO that stood out from the rest of the MMO's that were essentially carbon copies of one another. My first was Ultima Online, which was ok, but newer characters were seriously gimped in respect to older, more established players. The next was FFXI, and I was really excited about that one when it came out for the PS2. That wore off in a month when I realized it was pretty much like UO, with a FF paintjob on it, very disappointing. Didn't play an MMO until EVE.

Yep, it was the bomb. I was hooked, and spent every available moment playing and training and getting better and all that. Then the first ineveitable gank happened, and then the next, which stripped off the shiny clearcoat. No problem, lesson learned, you know? Expansion after expansion released, some good, some so totally unnecessary that I am still scratching my head. Instead of fixing existing problems, it added more. The last was the whole Planetary Exploration crap. *sigh* I am totally dreading the whole ambulation, pilot avatar release, and will probably hang up my character at that point. I don't want that, if I did, I would go play WoW, because that's what it will become.

Speaking of WoW, the one comment I have seen repeated concerning EVE is that it is a complex game. Really? Are you being serious, or is that just a troll? EVE is no more complex than any other game out there, and I would dare say that it actually pretty simple in comparison to some. All it takes is a little experience and trial and error, that's about it. Sure, if you want to start figuring out the formulas for traversals, explosion radius and the like, alright, I will concede that. Beyond that, all it takes is a clear head, a couple of visits to the forums, EveWiki, and in-game conversations with elder players to figure it out.

Now the why any ADULT would leave the game and go back to another MMO...

1) You will never catch up to the older players. Ever. There is a perpetual pyramid involved, in both SP and isk. Large alliances in the game hold the bulk of the assets, both material and liquid. Always will. You will always be on the bottom looking up at them.

2) The game is perpetually broken. Many things that need some serious love continually fall to the back burner, which is totally unacceptable.

3) Other players will at some point dictate your game. For some, that's a-ok. For others, it's an annoyance at best and a reason to emoragequit at worse. Sure, it's an MMO, but some people just want to come home from work and relax and do something they enjoy, do their own thing. If other's ruin that enjoyment and create new stress, the human condition will reflexively push it away.

4) The game is deceptively simple. I can mine, transport stuff, and run missions while playing a game on the PS3. I just beat Bad Company today while transporting goods and mining. Let's see you do that with any other MMO.

5) You WILL hit a point in the game where you will come to either hate it, or at the very least, will roll your eyes when you turn it on. Unless you have something truly epic or exciting going on in game, it's one more grind.

BONUS) Ambulation...did I mention that it will be the worst thing that happens to a game that stood out for being different from the pack? Have fun running around doing missions, which will probably involve delivering paperwork from one in-station agent to another.

One doesn't have to be soulless to recognize the flaws in the game, but rather intellectually honest with themselves about what they like. I still like the spirit of the game, but the execution has become sorely lacking as of late.

Sorry about the wall o Text..

Ruhige Schmerz
New Eden Scientific Association
Posted - 2010.09.20 07:04:00 - [150]
 

Ju

Just wanted to touch on a few things.

Originally by: Ronald Raygunn

Speaking of WoW, the one comment I have seen repeated concerning EVE is that it is a complex game. Really? Are you being serious, or is that just a troll?



I agree that it's more simple than some. Like, say, Dangerous Waters. Compared to most MMOs though, I still think it's the most complex out there. The only one I've played that came close was the Face of Mankind beta.

After 4 years playing, there are still a ton of things I don't know. If you focus on just one thing, that one thing can be pretty simple, but the breadth of things you can do is staggering and far more complex than any other MMO.

As for complexity being a barrier to new players, it somewhat is; New players aren't explicitly told that they can be 'killed' at any moment, anywhere outside of a station. Likewise it isn't impressed upon them, clearly, that scams and things of that nature are allowed.

It's not complex in the mechanics of how to play, but in the depth of freedom you have and the breadth of careers you can perform.

On to some specific points. I have snipped the ones I agree with.

Quote:

Now the why any ADULT would leave the game and go back to another MMO...

1) You will never catch up to the older players. Ever. There is a perpetual pyramid involved, in both SP and isk. Large alliances in the game hold the bulk of the assets, both material and liquid. Always will. You will always be on the bottom looking up at them.



I've never agreed with that one in particular. What's the measure of your position on the pyramid? SP? It's a 'secret' and you can always buy a character. ISK? You can be the richest person in eve in 61 minutes if you buy enough plex. Political influence? You can rise to the top of a corp or alliance in time, without being the richest person in either of the previous two.

Quote:

4) The game is deceptively simple. I can mine, transport stuff, and run missions while playing a game on the PS3. I just beat Bad Company today while transporting goods and mining. Let's see you do that with any other MMO.



You *can*, but if you do, is that the game that's broken and causing you to leave -- or is it your playstyle? There are certainly styles of play that you cannot do AFK or while only half paying attention.

Quote:

5) You WILL hit a point in the game where you will come to either hate it, or at the very least, will roll your eyes when you turn it on. Unless you have something truly epic or exciting going on in game, it's one more grind.



It happens. It's happened to me. When it does, I take a break. I always come back, which is more than I can say about any other MMO.

Quote:


BONUS) Ambulation...did I mention that it will be the worst thing that happens to a game that stood out for being different from the pack?



I think ambulation can be great, if done right. See FoM, again. I had a ton of fun during that Beta. The economy and 'crafting' were very similar to EvE. Overall the whole game was similar to EvE and I thought it had a lot of potential.

If EvEs ambulation where a grafting-on of FoM, I'd be ecstatic. :) If it turns into WoW, well, it's just another 'path' that I can ignore, like PI or mining.


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