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blankseplocked The People's Perpetuity (10b @ 10%)
 
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Ortacu
Posted - 2010.09.14 07:55:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Ortacu on 14/09/2010 12:01:11
Originally by: Cheque Please
Okay, I generally cannot be bothered to post self-indulgent rants about stuff the general EVE population couldn't care less about -- ie, arguing the merits of this interest rate versus that interest rate, so long as it makes people money... but now I'm just left baffled.


You know what IPO stands for? Since it's a PUBLIC thing and you came here asking for PUBLIC money from "the general EVE population" you should be bothered. And it's not arguing it's more about proofs/clearing doubts.

Quote:
As the funds increase it gets *MORE DIFFICULT* to turn a profit. This, btw, is also why people invest in these offerings -- because they cannot or do not want to put all their spare isk to effective use. Yes most smart players could probably make 10m off 100m in 3 hours... but that's 3 hours of effort from missioning, .01 bid wars, market manipulation, whatever. If you have greater than 100bn in your wallet, are you REALLY going to put forth the time and energy to squeeze another 10m by outbidding noobs on your order of Hobgoblin I drones?


And what makes you think YOU are able to squeeze that profit? Got any proof of that? That's what an audit (which you refuse) would at least try to prove. Again, you seem to dodge a question over and over. It was even in ****ing red bold. How much other public ISK have you handled so far? Are you sure your methods you used so far will scale as well with 10Bn?

Quote:
Basically, it all comes down to SCAMMING. Yes, the dreaded S word that everyone loves to label me with. So long as you can trust someone not to steal your money, as an investor you're making a profit for zero effort no matter the return rate.


No one accused you directly of being a scammer. Most people said you COULD turn out to be a scammer. If not in this venture, then in a future one. However you do NOTHING to clear these doubts. A very good step would be to stop being a drama queen and actually start answering questions. Don't want to? Fine. But don't expect people not to pick on you. You come asking for their money, that's the least they can do. And if this belligerent/ultra-defensive attitude of yours doesn't make people raise a brow, they well deserve to get scammed.

Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.14 10:42:00 - [62]
 

This 10b offering at 10% is a gift.

You can be certain that I won't scam yet as it is against the rep grinder's code. You are perfectly safe until I have at least 900b of your isk as I have my high score to consider.

I'll now hand you back to my alt for the weather...

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.14 13:37:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Machete Visor
Sure, I guess I could walk with the 10B (like OP can) and buy enough plex for 3 years. But what fun would that be? More importantly, what would I actually do in game? Tough questions.

Yeah, but that's the real problem with investments at MD. Imho the personal profit for running a bond are quite small, even with a several billion big bond. This means there's a too small incentive not to scam, which leaves bond runners either doing it in preparation of a scam, or for fun.

I mean just look at who's behind the currently most successful and "safe" bonds. Is it someone doing it for great personal profit? No, usually it's someone already very rich doing it for fun, or for charity or whatever you want to call it.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.09.14 15:42:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Machete Visor on 14/09/2010 15:44:20
Originally by: Cheque Please

As the funds increase it gets *MORE DIFFICULT* to turn a profit. This, btw, is also why people invest in these offerings -- because they cannot or do not want to put all their spare isk to effective use. Yes most smart players could probably make 10m off 100m in 3 hours... but that's 3 hours of effort from missioning, .01 bid wars, market manipulation, whatever. If you have greater than 100bn in your wallet, are you REALLY going to put forth the time and energy to squeeze another 10m by outbidding noobs on your order of Hobgoblin I drones?

No, they'd rather let a poorer person like me *who could use the isk to further his own trade* step up to manage it for them. So long as I don't totally blow them off and run with the isk, 10% for zero work is a lot better than nothing.

Oh, well hang on a minute. 10% is pretty bad according to you -- I should pay 30%! Okay let's say, instead of a solid 10% rate, I agree to a 30% rate. Wow, that looks great for investors! Surely, this must be the best bond ever... except, wait... no... because WHY would I bother running a bond if I had to make *3 billion* a month just to cover my debt when that's almost a 1/3 of the capital I'm raising? Where's the incentive in that? Why run a legit bond at all?



What you are saying makes complete sense in a normal economic framework where there are laws/regs in place to prevent abuse.

However, it doesn't work here.

Here is why...

Bigger Risk should equal Bigger Return from an investors perspective, yes?

Smaller Risk should equal Smaller Return

Since scamming is the number 1 risk, and that risk increases with every incremental 0.01ISK you receive for free and promise to pay back

More ISK should equal More Return


Atleast, that is in theory how it should work. The counterpressure is the free isk floating around without a home. I guess if that counterpressure is strong enough, it could outweigh the dynamic i described above.

the other two guys harassing you are making completely different points about operational risk... which i think you'll be able to answer better than this particular question, if you choose to address it.

Trebor Whettam
Posted - 2010.09.14 20:22:00 - [65]
 

I agree with Machete's analysis. The fall-out is that traditional large bonds/ipos become untenable, but who can honestly argue that they make sense for both investors and investees today?

In my opinion (which probably doesn't matter much), the only sane way to run an extremely large public project in Eve is to divide it into a partnership of smaller entities that all maintain sole possession of assets equivalent to their investment value. However, the overhead for this sort of structure is high, and it makes it difficult for small-timers to get into the game (although they should be investing in smaller / higher return investments anyways).

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:32:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/09/2010 23:47:46
Freebie no-api needed audit:

1) No business plan - red flag
2) Refuses to even try to get an audit - red flag
3) Openly states that he will expand in future - yellow flag
4) States he will not do a buy back when expanding - red flag
5) States that if he ever does a buy back it will be at 'market value' rather than face value - yellow flag
6) States that when he expands he will lower interest payments - red flag
7) Has completed all previous bonds successfully: Yes - Green flag
9) We do not know what his current actual NAV is in the wake of THREE public offerings we have no way of knowing if he is actually capable of manaing 10b isk: - red flag
10) States that if his profits aren't where they 'need to be' he will lower interest payments without a buy-back offer: - red flag
That's without looking at a single api key.

As always, send isk at your own risk and use your own common sense when evaluating the risk vs the reward of any investment. An audit is only meant to inform of possible risk assessment, it is not a guarantee of a scam or non-scam.

Enjoy!

Holli Nalt
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.16 10:44:00 - [67]
 

Cheque,

Please reply to my Evemail. I need that ISK back for corp matters, and can not invest at this time. I will invest with you in the future, however.

Thanks

H

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.16 21:25:00 - [68]
 

My internet in my apartment has been down for a couple of days. As that makes it rather difficult to run a bond, I'm refunding all isk until further notice.
Once I resolve the issue, I may relaunch this bond, but given the general atmosphere I may not bother.

Toodles

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.09.16 21:55:00 - [69]
 

*sniffle sniffle*

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.16 21:57:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Cheque Please on 16/09/2010 23:20:01
edit: nm

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.16 22:09:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Machete Visor
*sniffle sniffle*



thanks for the continued support.

Without my usual cheerleaders, I would be lost.

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.16 23:20:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Cheque Please on 16/09/2010 23:24:17
All isk has been refunded, when I get my connection stable I will relaunch the bond. Check back later.

Sorry about the internet issue, but I can't help it.

edit: btw, IN REGARDS TO THAT BIG, SCARY RED QUESTION, that makes for over 10b public isk returned

Holli Nalt
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.17 02:49:00 - [73]
 

ISK returned. Thanks!

I will invest in you in the future, and my withdrawal has nothing to do with the trolls above.

Always a pleasure dealing with ya man.

Holley

Momus Maximus
Posted - 2010.09.17 06:15:00 - [74]
 

Because being reasonably skeptical = being a troll.

I forgot that public offerings are not actually supposed to be scrutinized. We're just supposed to rush as quickly as we can to dump our ISK into shares before they're all sold out.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.09.17 13:08:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Holli Nalt
my withdrawal has nothing to do with the people pointing out perfectly valid concerns and risks above.


Fixed that for you.


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