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blankseplocked The People's Perpetuity (10b @ 10%)
 
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Dwayne Pipe
Posted - 2010.09.13 10:54:00 - [31]
 

I would like to reserve 250m worth of shares too please :)

Squatch
Caldari
Defenders of the Faith
Posted - 2010.09.13 10:56:00 - [32]
 

I'd like to reserve 2500 shares

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.13 10:58:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 13/09/2010 10:58:54
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Cheque Please
Confirming that I am indeed a Bad Bobby alt.

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids...



You know, before you cashed in, I was about to ask you for another BPO service (where you buy it and people can take it in rates). Sucks to have lost that service.

berytus
Gallente
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2010.09.13 10:58:00 - [34]
 

okay if there are any left, i would like to buy a bill worth of shares.

Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.13 11:18:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 13/09/2010 10:58:54
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Cheque Please
Confirming that I am indeed a Bad Bobby alt.

And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids...


You know, before you cashed in, I was about to ask you for another BPO service (where you buy it and people can take it in rates). Sucks to have lost that service.

It used to be that several people provided a quality service in that area. Sadly, I think that KzIg just focuses on mineral comp now, Cosmo has scaled back to one account, I've sold off all my POSes and I don't know anyone else reliable. BIG provide a slightly different type of service but you might consider speaking to them. You might also consider Varo, as he has the facilities, or RAW, as he was doing loans.

If none of them are willing to provide that service then I'd say it's a good time for someone else to make a move on that marketplace. I never invested significantly in MD offerings for many reasons, but the primary one was that BPO rent-to-buy was always a more secure way of investing my isk in a semi-passive way.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.09.13 13:10:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Thoraemond
Did you check in with Vaerah Vahrokha about what timeline would be required for an update audit, or did you decide against an audit without looking into it?

I am sorry but not only I have audit requests piling, I also have to go away off my region to perform some work on a client's factory.

Finally, Cheque is now beyond the "easy to detect" scam threshold, an audit would really only cover pure performance statistics but would not give an ounce of "safety" (they never do, but now even less).

I can appreciate that you might not be available to audit now, and certainly your previous work here was helpful at the time. That does not directly address my question, though.

Did the OP approach you and learn that you were unavailable and as a result decide not to have an audit? Or is it only afterward, having decided not to have an audit, that the OP learned that you are unavailable?

While an update audit might not tend to have the dramatic effect of a first audit, surely you would agree that there could be some benefit all around (to the offerer and to potential investors) in having recent performance confirmed?

israus
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.13 13:31:00 - [37]
 

this is so obviously building for a scam. going from 3 bil bond to 10 bil bond in 2 months with the option to expand the bond futher. I doubt he'll cut and run here to many gullable people about throwing money at him. just makes me laugh so soon after the BB scam people are queing up to get done over by the next one.

seriously people think about this for a moment station trading bonds very rarely make it this high for the simple fact that the money money you have does translate into an equal increase in profits. 2 months ago he had a net worth of 700 mil right now after all the offerings he's been doing he should be easy on 7 billion.

and real traders once they have that sort of cash don't come looking for public funds because they fund there own operations.

Holli Nalt
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.13 13:37:00 - [38]
 

What's with every ****ing troll around here calling everything a scam right away?

He had a few previous bonds, with solid results, good communication to investor's, and a nice return at the end.

Having an audit does NOT protect against scamming, but even IRL, investing can be risky. People have chosen to take that risk. If you don't want to invest, GTFO and STFU.

Banque
Lonely Bank
Posted - 2010.09.13 13:53:00 - [39]
 

I would like to reserve a hundred Shares please.
So 100 mil in total.

Ortacu
Posted - 2010.09.13 14:02:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Holli Nalt
What's with every ****ing troll around here calling everything a scam right away?

He had a few previous bonds, with solid results, good communication to investor's, and a nice return at the end.

Having an audit does NOT protect against scamming, but even IRL, investing can be risky. People have chosen to take that risk. If you don't want to invest, GTFO and STFU.


Whom are you talking about? Bad Bobby? Yeah, he had nice previous bonds.

Now, pun aside, it's not trolling, just asking some questions and trying to see what else apart from words and previous results is offered to make this IPO safer or more reliable than others that ended up as scams before. And that is because apart from the players with BIG amounts of ISK at hand that CAN actually take a loss there are a number of players with much smaller wallets who are seeing these glittery threads and think they're pure gold. They are fooled by the others that go like "here, have 5B from me, I don't ask questions". They go on thinking "hey, they trust him, they have experience in this stuff, they're older than me in markets, they HAVE to know what they're doing".

Now, I know that it's their own fault for losing any sum because they didn't do any research before but it makes me feel better to shoot some general questions for the record. Remember that fiasco with "the new bank of eve"? If there weren't some people to ask some questions the lousy thief would've gotten away with much more than 600 mil or w/e change he got.

...now, if you don't like reading people's questions/comments, you can as well GTFO and STFU and go blindly invest in everything you want. I want to ask questions before doing any move.

Dr Arraya
Posted - 2010.09.13 14:29:00 - [41]
 

I'd like to reserve 2500 shares.

Lecherito
Posted - 2010.09.13 14:39:00 - [42]
 

You people are seriously throwing 10 billion at a guy named "Cheque Please"? This soon after BB scam? Really???

-L

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.09.13 14:40:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

You know, before you cashed in, I was about to ask you for another BPO service (where you buy it and people can take it in rates). Sucks to have lost that service.


Mail sent ingame

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.13 15:30:00 - [44]
 

Quote:

Did the OP approach you and learn that you were unavailable and as a result decide not to have an audit? Or is it only afterward, having decided not to have an audit, that the OP learned that you are unavailable?

While an update audit might not tend to have the dramatic effect of a first audit, surely you would agree that there could be some benefit all around (to the offerer and to potential investors) in having recent performance confirmed?



No, I was not asked for an audit.
I cannot give a serene and objective judgement about this and I am not out to sell audits to make some dishonest or not earned money. An audit would probably show some great performance and that's it. The money request indeed is rising too quick (***subjective thought***) but even with an audit I could not honestly deliver any proof whether this is a fast step up leading to the umpteenth scam or it's just good management.

Ezzia
Minmatar
Dark Reality Unified
Posted - 2010.09.13 16:05:00 - [45]
 

I was there for his first thread/offering (back when he was still willing to give out his API for audits). After talking to him for a bit we even played a few games of DOTA together on Warcraft 3. I like Cheque from all the interactions I've had with him, and although I support his Eve endeavors this is still probably exactly what it looks like.

Grind Rep!
Unsecure Offerings of an increasing ISK Amount!
Scam!

Does he want 10 billion? Or does he want more? What is his price? It's going to happen, this is Eve afterall...It's only a question of which IPO for what amount. Until then he will be 100% professional.

Gabriel Virtus
hirr
Posted - 2010.09.13 16:41:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 13/09/2010 17:25:44
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:

blah blah blah



No, I was not asked for an audit.
I cannot give a serene and objective judgement about this and I am not out to sell audits to make some dishonest or not earned money. An audit would probably show some great performance and that's it. The money request indeed is rising too quick (***subjective thought***) but even with an audit I could not honestly deliver any proof whether this is a fast step up leading to the umpteenth scam or it's just good management.


The only thing an audit would show is 1) they do indeed trade and 2) they have no scammer alts on that account. The biggest risk to is scamming, not failure to make money. And I have yet to hear of an investment that failed because Reithe, BB, or Ebank board members - I had to - were discovered to be an alt of the player making the proposal(On the same account). While it might be true that audits raise the cost of scamming, the increased costs are nothing compared to the isk scammed. Audits are just unnecessary overhead that provide negligible security at best.

-GV

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2010.09.13 17:37:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Virtus
Audits are just unnecessary overhead that provide negligible security at best.

-GV


Audits are not unnecessary overhead but they don't provide any security, just informations.

If people learned WTF are audits for, we'd not need people repeating they are useless at security like this. Because it's superfluous.

Audits give a decent entry barrier vs new / inexperienced scammers and can tell a lot about investees performance, that's it. And it's not so little.

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.13 18:23:00 - [48]
 

Oh jesus, my thread has turned into a discussion about the merits of audits AGAIN. Smile

After adding up all reservations thus far, the bond meets exactly the 10bil total. Some people will probably drop out, so if you'd still like to reserve shares, I'll place you on the waiting list.

A few notes: I have decided to adopt Thoraemond's suggestion to group shares in interest brackets (starting at 10%), and they'll stay in that bracket for the entirety of the bond. Further expansions (should I choose to do so) may be set at a lower interest rate, but without depreciating the original share value.

However, I will not be offering any buybacks until I decide to terminate the bond (where I will pay 1mil per share). Shares must be sold on the market, and it is the responsibility of he purchaser to note which interest rate a share belongs to. I will keep a list of shareholders in the 2nd post of the thread. All sales must be posted in this thread so I have a record.

At this time, I'd like to start collecting the isk. I will hand out the shares asap. You can send me an evemail to confirm if you'd like.

Bond will launch when I have all the reservations.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.09.13 18:52:00 - [49]
 

this is too funny...

does anyone read before investing?

Also can confirm there is a big ceiling on returns for station trading, unless you are doing it at jita and can manage a ton of orders. So there is so merit to what he is saying in terms of location.

A performance audit would go a long way to confirming that he can actually do it though, before throwing 10B at him without so much as a general strategy (station trading, in iteself, is NOT a strategy for 10B - you'll need to be more clever than that).

Also, why are you guys accepting 10% for an unsecured bond with a high scam potential? Strange. Plus he'll adjust the interest rate down if his take isn't enough?

Just fyi, on my little 3B-4B operation, I currently pay a 5% interest rate to bond holders (4B) and last month returned 85% to equity holders (3B). If everything minus 10% is flowing to the OP, wow, what a deal.





Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.13 19:10:00 - [50]
 

Don't hate the playa, Machete, hate the game (if you must).

I'm going to start popping into your own bonds to demand performance audits and question your every move.

With a 10% rate, I have to cover 1.6 bil in expenses a month (interest + plex) to keep going. So while your rates are absolutely extraordinary and I encourage everyone to check out your fantastic offers, 10% is how I am starting this one and it will not go any higher.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.09.13 19:41:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Cheque Please
Don't hate the playa, Machete, hate the game (if you must).

I'm going to start popping into your own bonds to demand performance audits and question your every move.

With a 10% rate, I have to cover 1.6 bil in expenses a month (interest + plex) to keep going. So while your rates are absolutely extraordinary and I encourage everyone to check out your fantastic offers, 10% is how I am starting this one and it will not go any higher.


really, if i had to question a move, it would be more about how much you are actually making... but that is a shareholder question to ask, and I am not a shareholder, so please ignore it.

otherwise watching this is kinda like watching a social experiment... if you can get 10% on 10B then I might see a restructured fund in my future as well.

Holli Nalt
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.13 22:57:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ortacu
Whom are you talking about? Bad Bobby? Yeah, he had nice previous bonds.


No, I wasn't referring to him at all. There have been many opportunities in MD that have gone either good or bad. That's the risk. The problem I have is that in the few weeks prior to the BB fiasco, and ever since, there always seems to be some "one" (bot going to say troll), who pops in and says "SCAM". It's really getting old.

Originally by: Ortacu
Now, pun aside, it's not trolling, just asking some questions and trying to see what else apart from words and previous results is offered to make this IPO safer or more reliable than others that ended up as scams before. And that is because apart from the players with BIG amounts of ISK at hand that CAN actually take a loss there are a number of players with much smaller wallets who are seeing these glittery threads and think they're pure gold. They are fooled by the others that go like "here, have 5B from me, I don't ask questions". They go on thinking "hey, they trust him, they have experience in this stuff, they're older than me in markets, they HAVE to know what they're doing".


So, we're doing it for the younger inexperienced players who may have less ISK than the rest? Then I say they should live by one of the basic EVE rules - Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. I modify it to be - Don't invest what you can afford to lose.

If they refuse to do any research, or give some guy ALL their ISK and get scammed, sucks to be them. No different from RL, tbh.

Originally by: Ortacu
...now, if you don't like reading people's questions/comments, you can as well GTFO and STFU and go blindly invest in everything you want. I want to ask questions before doing any move.


It's not people's comments in general, it's the constant "get and audit or else this is a scam" or the "you have another bond running and you're ALREADY offering a new one? SCAM". Informed, serious, thoughtful questions are always great, because sometimes they ask questions I don't think about.

I do not blindly invest in everything. I have done my research. I have past dealings with Cheque, and am ready to hand over more ISK with more great returns.

Fake Edit: Oh, and if you don't invest, YOU'RE scamming Cheque Please by NOT investing. Soooo....SCAM!

Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.14 00:18:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Induc on 14/09/2010 00:24:02
I seriously can't understand some peoples' compulsory need to throw their isk to anyone with a large enough post count and some well formatted paragraphs.

Currently there are a number of newer faces grinding MD reputation, Cheque Please and Machete Visor (sorry but it's true) among them.
I'm not saying they will scam, but there's nothing saying they won't either.

Ask yourself a question, why do these guys run bonds? Charity? They enjoy giving you free isk? No, they supposedly do it to make money themselves, and the hard fact is that when you've reached a certain level of trust the amount you'll earn by continue running the bonds is greatly outweighed by what you can make if just make a run for it.

And for Cheque Please, you've sneakily avoided the most important question:

How much public isk do you already have in your possession?

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.14 00:32:00 - [54]
 

Quick update: shares will be sent out tomorrow. I forgot to vote for more shares and don't currently have enough.

I only have ~40% of the pledged isk anyway, so it's not delaying the launch. If you haven't sent it to me yet, please get to me asap so I can start.

Thanks

Momus Maximus
Posted - 2010.09.14 01:42:00 - [55]
 

What we're seeing here is the anatomy of a scam.

A scam doesn't happen primarily because of the scammer's "brilliance" (at least not in this game), but because of the constant, willing disbelief, among a certain segment of investors, that a scam is in the works.

Does anybody even know whether Cheque Please can handle 10bn worth of investments in Jita station trading? Where is the proof? There aren't many people who could handle that much trade all by themselves and afford to pay out 10%, much less adequate interest, to investors.

I think we can safely assume that the 10%, with an option to reduce later on, is the fantasy rate of return, and that if this somehow isn't a scam, investors are realistically going to be looking at a far smaller number in the future. How happy will you be to rake in that piddly 3% or 5%, or even 10%, on your 100mil ISK investment each month? How many months will this bond even exist?

Why not ask Cheque Please why such a high, 10bn ISK figure is necessary for this trading venture? Is she sure that she can't trade in another sector, with 5bn in capital, for bigger returns? If she can't guarantee the 10% on a 10bn ISK venture, why not ask her to come up with a figure for which she can guarantee 10%?

Any investors who put their money into this particular venture are basically loaning their ISK to Cheque Please, and giving her carte blanche to adjust the interest rate as she pleases. What rational lender would ever allow somebody to do that?

Sheesh. I really hope Cheque Please is lying about having 40% of the capital in-hand at the moment.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2010.09.14 01:54:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Momus Maximus
Any investors who put their money into this particular venture are basically loaning their ISK to Cheque Please, and giving her carte blanche to adjust the interest rate as she pleases. What rational lender would ever allow somebody to do that?

Without commenting either way on what I think about the merits of this offering as a whole, I would note that Cheque Please did actually change tack to adopt set rates of return, and clarified some terms of the offering in this post:

Originally by: Cheque Please
I have decided to adopt Thoraemond's suggestion to group shares in interest brackets (starting at 10%), and they'll stay in that bracket for the entirety of the bond. Further expansions (should I choose to do so) may be set at a lower interest rate, but without depreciating the original share value.

However, I will not be offering any buybacks until I decide to terminate the bond (where I will pay 1mil per share). Shares must be sold on the market, and it is the responsibility of he purchaser to note which interest rate a share belongs to. I will keep a list of shareholders in the 2nd post of the thread. All sales must be posted in this thread so I have a record.

Machete Visor
Posted - 2010.09.14 04:04:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Induc
Edited by: Induc on 14/09/2010 00:24:02
Currently there are a number of newer faces grinding MD reputation, Cheque Please and Machete Visor (sorry but it's true) among them.
I'm not saying they will scam, but there's nothing saying they won't either.

Ask yourself a question, why do these guys run bonds? Charity? They enjoy giving you free isk? No, they supposedly do it to make money themselves, and the hard fact is that when you've reached a certain level of trust the amount you'll earn by continue running the bonds is greatly outweighed by what you can make if just make a run for it.



Its a fair point. I can't help but notice cheque seems to structure his offerings with remarkable similiarity to mine in terms of ISK amount (first a small station trading fund, then a bond, then a speculative fund, then a larger bond and now a redemption of them all and one big bond for 10B - fact pattern applies to both of us).

One big difference - I've developed an incentive structure on my funds that is well laid out and answers your 2nd question... running the fund basically gives me a plex a month to pay for game time.

Sure, I guess I could walk with the 10B (like OP can) and buy enough plex for 3 years. But what fun would that be? More importantly, what would I actually do in game? Tough questions.

Also hoping that the structure I laid out will catch on. It hasn't and this offering is the most obvious example, which is why I posted to begin with. No business plan, no mention of a strategy other than "jita", terrible returns given the risk profile, no management compensation... the list kind of goes on. But 10B worth of investment (2B coming from investors in 1 alliance, I noticed.. odd) is out the door.


Momus Maximus
Posted - 2010.09.14 04:14:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Momus Maximus on 14/09/2010 04:20:59
Edited by: Momus Maximus on 14/09/2010 04:14:53
Originally by: Thoraemond
Without commenting either way on what I think about the merits of this offering as a whole, I would note that Cheque Please did actually change tack to adopt set rates of return, and clarified some terms of the offering in this post


I guess one could call that "promising," but I still think the issue remains. Why would somebody account for future reductions of return rate unless they didn't understand the real nature of what they were attempting? If somebody doesn't know whether they can make X% returns on an investment of Y ISK, and the Y that we're talking about is 10bn (a sum that most people are going to have a difficult time managing solo, even when they're only paying returns to themselves), that doesn't really instill trust, regardless of the success they claim to have had in the past.

What kind of frustrates me is that I don't see many people really questioning the fundamental premise of this offering. Why does a person need 10bn ISK just to return 10% (tops) to investors on station trading? Why not halve the capital and double the return? Why not halve it twice? Etc.

When it comes down to it, I don't trust many people to be able to run a 10bn station trading bond at a return rate adequate for outside investment. It's just a very difficult thing to do, and nothing really proves you can pull it off other than having done it before (preferably with one's own capital). And at the end of the day, as an investor, you really have to ask yourself, "Can I make more than 10mil ISK off this 100mil within a month?" and if the answer is yes (and certainly it should be, since you could do such a thing in a matter of maybe an hour or two in your spare time) you need to follow up with, "Then why am I considering investing in this horrid bond?"

(Also, about these returns brackets: If you bracket returns based on future bond expansions, wouldn't that give Cheque Please an incentive to expand a middling or tanking bond, since that's the only way to reduce the overall return rate?)

Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
Posted - 2010.09.14 05:13:00 - [59]
 

Okay, I generally cannot be bothered to post self-indulgent rants about stuff the general EVE population couldn't care less about -- ie, arguing the merits of this interest rate versus that interest rate, so long as it makes people money... but now I'm just left baffled.

I don't understand how I can be accused of a "terrible return rate" -- 10% is pretty damn good compared to most 'larger' bonds I've seen on MD. Machete (and Momus, who I am 99% sure is either your long lost twin or alt), are you suggesting I should offer a return of 20%? 30%? How high would I have to go for you to be content?

As the funds increase it gets *MORE DIFFICULT* to turn a profit. This, btw, is also why people invest in these offerings -- because they cannot or do not want to put all their spare isk to effective use. Yes most smart players could probably make 10m off 100m in 3 hours... but that's 3 hours of effort from missioning, .01 bid wars, market manipulation, whatever. If you have greater than 100bn in your wallet, are you REALLY going to put forth the time and energy to squeeze another 10m by outbidding noobs on your order of Hobgoblin I drones?

No, they'd rather let a poorer person like me *who could use the isk to further his own trade* step up to manage it for them. So long as I don't totally blow them off and run with the isk, 10% for zero work is a lot better than nothing.

Oh, well hang on a minute. 10% is pretty bad according to you -- I should pay 30%! Okay let's say, instead of a solid 10% rate, I agree to a 30% rate. Wow, that looks great for investors! Surely, this must be the best bond ever... except, wait... no... because WHY would I bother running a bond if I had to make *3 billion* a month just to cover my debt when that's almost a 1/3 of the capital I'm raising? Where's the incentive in that? Why run a legit bond at all?

Basically, it all comes down to SCAMMING. Yes, the dreaded S word that everyone loves to label me with. So long as you can trust someone not to steal your money, as an investor you're making a profit for zero effort no matter the return rate.

If you don't trust me not to steal your money, then I'm sorry, I obviously have failed for some folks as a bond manager. Maybe you hate the way I don't brag/explain every little detail how of I make my isk, or maybe you hate my name and hate Lady GaGa to boot.. or maybe you just don't like haikus.

Whatever it is, please for the sake of my poor thread, stop derailing it with posts about nothing. Changing my rate to 30% sure as hell isn't going to make this bond any more legit IF I actually do intend to scam. If you've already convinced yourself of my nefarious intentions, there's nothing I can say or do to prove otherwise.

... oh wait, hang on a second...

Originally by: Machete Visor
"Sure, I guess I could walk with the 10B (like OP can) and buy enough plex for 3 years. But what fun would that be? More importantly, what would I actually do in game? Tough questions."


OH MAN, that's all I have to do? Yeah guys, I totally won't scam as I am a legit business man with morals as pure as a unicorn. What fun would it be for me?

Momus Maximus
Posted - 2010.09.14 05:33:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Cheque Please
I don't understand how I can be accused of a "terrible return rate" -- 10% is pretty damn good compared to most 'larger' bonds I've seen on MD.


That's the thing. You say 10%, and then you say that you'll have the right to change the interest rate as you please (but never give more than 10%), and then you lock in these "brackets." Any way you cut it, it seems like you lack confidence in your ability to run a 10bn ISK bond in station trading. Why should anybody trust that you can do what you're setting out to do when you're waffling on what the future returns are going to be. Seems to me like an attempt to draw people in with a high rate, and then whittle it down to a much smaller figure in the future (either for all investors, or for an expansion of the bond, most of whom will probably be old investors purchasing new shares anyway ... so either way, you probably end up screwing over the initial investors).

Moreover, you have an incentive to expand the bond if it's middling, because it's the only way for you to lower the overall average rate paid out to investors.

Quote:
As the funds increase it gets *MORE DIFFICULT* to turn a profit.


Exactly. Which is the reason I'm asking why you need to run a 10bn bond. I don't think very many people can operate such huge amounts of capital and hope to return anywhere near 10% to investors, on top of what they hope to pay out to themselves. But maybe you're just the awesomest of awesome Jita traders, and I don't know what I'm talking about.


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