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cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.09.07 23:20:00 - [1]
 

When you enter a wormhole there should be some penalty to time. For example your skills train twice as slow in a C2 wormhole and in a C5 your skills stop completely.

There are just too many benefits to staying in a wormhole indefinitely and by having some penalties it would encourage players to do other things.

The more rich the wormhole is the greater the skill penalty for training should be, this would also help to restore 0.0 systems to have a useful purpose because there would be no time penalty to skills.

spoon reaver
Posted - 2010.09.07 23:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: spoon reaver on 08/09/2010 00:00:10
Neutral...

ugh...

wtf..

have you been reading the forums at all before you posted this rubbish?

Ill give you a hint as to why people dont go to null space. and its not because null space is not feverishly rich as wh space. but wh space is the last ditch effort to create a little empire without being hot dropped by supper carriers and their minions that come forth.
also the feeling of exploration in wh
null sec does not have that or at least not to its degree.
null sec = blobs and gate camps with alot of time either fighting or running for your life ...and you want new people to develop there. Rolling Eyes

Science Tramp
Posted - 2010.09.08 19:27:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
When you enter a wormhole there should be some penalty to time. For example your skills train twice as slow in a C2 wormhole and in a C5 your skills stop completely.


So in a C6 would you lose SP?

This a terrible idea. Care you explain some of the benefits of staying in a hole indefinitely? Keep in mind if you stayed in ONE hole indefinitely and not take advantage of the static/other exists you would end up spinning your ship inside the POS 95% of the time.

Tub Chil
Posted - 2010.09.08 19:44:00 - [4]
 

guys, just... ignore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.09.08 20:05:00 - [5]
 

haters gotta hate. I also love the knee jerk troll comments, is that the default now for everyone when they don't like something? Every single one of you who jumps on the troll bandwagon are so unoriginal and have nothing to offer that is constructive. Why post at all if you can't think of something original?

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.09.08 20:12:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: spoon reaver
Edited by: spoon reaver on 08/09/2010 00:00:10
Neutral...

ugh...

wtf..

have you been reading the forums at all before you posted this rubbish?

Ill give you a hint as to why people dont go to null space. and its not because null space is not feverishly rich as wh space. but wh space is the last ditch effort to create a little empire without being hot dropped by supper carriers and their minions that come forth.
also the feeling of exploration in wh
null sec does not have that or at least not to its degree.
null sec = blobs and gate camps with alot of time either fighting or running for your life ...and you want new people to develop there. Rolling Eyes


despite your venomous response you bring up a very good point. Nullsec, much like your comments, is a very hostile place by design.
However, having traveled through nullsec I was surprised how many empty systems were just there collecting space dust.
What we need is more nullsec connections, I would love to have additional jump bridges and systems linked to highsec to make it harder for gangs to camp a system, the more connections and entrances you have to nullsec the less likely you will encounter a gate camp.

I pay the same amount monthly as everyone else and I want to experience all of eve just like everyone else and right now it's just not an option, so what's the point of having a variety of space if you can't fly in it like everyone else?

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.09.08 21:51:00 - [7]
 

Wormholes degrade over time the longer someone lives in one, not to mention the insanely more complex and difficult logistics one must overcome to live in w-space for long periods of time. The fact that they can put up with moving around to different wormholes to keep getting fresh wormholes while somehow managing to keep the logistics going is a true testament to their hardiness.

So, tell me again, why do you want to get people out of w-space? While we're at it, let's penalize training time for people who stay docked up for long periods of time, because the benefits of docking up are just too great Rolling Eyes

Alexander Third
Gallente
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Posted - 2010.09.09 00:32:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Alexander Third on 15/09/2010 01:14:10
Edited by: Alexander Third on 09/09/2010 00:35:02
You're basically saying that we should penalize people for living in a certain area, Well then we should penalize people living in sov space and also people in high sec because they're both slightly safer than low-sec, and edit: sovereignty 0.0, sorry for the typo.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.09.09 02:41:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
There are just too many benefits to staying in a wormhole indefinitely and by having some penalties it would encourage players to do other things..


Do you count having to haul freighter-loads of ice products to fuel a POS amongst the benefits of staying in a wormhole indefinitely? Do you count delayed local as a benefit or cost of living in w-space?

Life in a WH come with its burdens and risks.

Arrendis
Posted - 2010.09.09 02:57:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
Wormholes degrade over time the longer someone lives in one.


Patently untrue. Wormhole mining sites spawn at random intervals, but the system overall does not degrade. Instead, once you open a site, you have 3 days to exploit the resources. And then you will get random spawns at a random rate. These are often combat sites. Clear out a couple, and you'll see the mining sites return.

Dmoney3788
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.09.09 07:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Arrendis
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Wormholes degrade over time the longer someone lives in one.


Patently untrue. Wormhole mining sites spawn at random intervals, but the system overall does not degrade. Instead, once you open a site, you have 3 days to exploit the resources. And then you will get random spawns at a random rate. These are often combat sites. Clear out a couple, and you'll see the mining sites return.

I haven't lived in a wh long enough to see, but I've heard that the longer you live in a wh, less and less sites respawn until you reach a point where there is only 1 wh and 1 combat site left. I am not certain on the time frame here, but I've been in a wh for around a week and it starts fresh with lets say 30 sigs or so on average, then after the week is up there's only about 15-20 sites. And this isn't a one time event. I've noticed this every time I've been in a wh, so it seems to support what I've heard.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.09.10 00:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Dmoney3788
heard that the longer you live in a wh, less and less sites respawn until you reach a point where there is only 1 wh and 1 combat site left. I am not certain on the time frame here, but I've been in a wh for around a week and it starts fresh with lets say 30 sigs or so on average, then after the week is up there's only about 15-20 sites. And this isn't a one time event. I've noticed this every time I've been in a wh, so it seems to support what I've heard.


When you arrive there, the sites you see are like flotsam washed up on a beach. As you clear the sites they respawn elsewhere in that wormhole constellation, effectively becoming flotsam on someone else's beach. The stuff floating onto your beach will continue to arrive at roughly the same rate, assuming people are still clearing stuff off their beach. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the respawning of each completed site is controlled so that site will not respawn immediately in this system, which would explain why an intensely farmed system will appear to have a lower rate of respawn.

Etrias Jhozah
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2010.09.10 04:32:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
When you enter a wormhole there should be some penalty to time. For example your skills train twice as slow in a C2 wormhole and in a C5 your skills stop completely.

There are just too many benefits to staying in a wormhole indefinitely and by having some penalties it would encourage players to do other things.

The more rich the wormhole is the greater the skill penalty for training should be, this would also help to restore 0.0 systems to have a useful purpose because there would be no time penalty to skills.


I'm betting you haven't spent a single minute in a wormhole. Because that's why people go to wormholes, it's to collect their skill points without being shot. Rolling Eyes

You really don't know how wormholes work, do you? Actually living in one takes a hell of a lot of logistics. A POS doesn't run on wishes and wormhole rainbows.

What are these "too many benefits" that you're speaking about? The benefit that the hole you're living in goes dead after a bit and you have to wait untold days for it to repopulate? Or maybe it's having to constantly be on guard in the hole because there's no local and some other corp is waiting to gank you when you don't expect it? Or that your exit point constantly changes and the one day you're low on POS fuel is the one day your link back leads to the middle of hostile 0.0 space? Yeah, it's real easy living...not like all the hard work you need to do in empire space, those guys have it rough.

Try living in a hole for a bit before you get bright ideas and try to "fix" it.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.09.14 18:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Etrias Jhozah
Originally by: cyndrogen
When you enter a wormhole there should be some penalty to time. For example your skills train twice as slow in a C2 wormhole and in a C5 your skills stop completely.

There are just too many benefits to staying in a wormhole indefinitely and by having some penalties it would encourage players to do other things.

The more rich the wormhole is the greater the skill penalty for training should be, this would also help to restore 0.0 systems to have a useful purpose because there would be no time penalty to skills.


I'm betting you haven't spent a single minute in a wormhole. Because that's why people go to wormholes, it's to collect their skill points without being shot. Rolling Eyes

You really don't know how wormholes work, do you? Actually living in one takes a hell of a lot of logistics. A POS doesn't run on wishes and wormhole rainbows.

What are these "too many benefits" that you're speaking about? The benefit that the hole you're living in goes dead after a bit and you have to wait untold days for it to repopulate? Or maybe it's having to constantly be on guard in the hole because there's no local and some other corp is waiting to gank you when you don't expect it? Or that your exit point constantly changes and the one day you're low on POS fuel is the one day your link back leads to the middle of hostile 0.0 space? Yeah, it's real easy living...not like all the hard work you need to do in empire space, those guys have it rough.

Try living in a hole for a bit before you get bright ideas and try to "fix" it.


I have been to many wormholes and have stayed for days, I even help setup a POS and take it down. You know what, it was easy! The biggest pain in the ass was getting the POS setup which took hours, getting all the materials and fuel for the POS before the hole collapsed etc. Maybe you're just in a WH which is in high demand and therefore you have a harder time then we did.

A mobile WH operation is better however, I'm against POS in wormholes simply because, as you pointed out, the fuel to run the pos is not available so you MUST exit and therefore you are not self sufficient in a WH.

Having an orca or a rorq in a WH can be a great way to make money, hunting sleepers alone can net you millions and thats without salvage. An orca is a small mobile POS IMHO. As long as you don't plan on mining much an orca can support a fleet for months. The only time you need to return to highsec is to buy more weapons.

Sure you can mine the moons and asteroids but to me the single most important reason for being in a WH is the technology that you gather from sleeper wrecks and other sleeper sites.

Torothanax
Posted - 2010.09.14 18:26:00 - [15]
 

What does all that have to do with making skill training take more time in a W system?

Nub Sauce
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:22:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen

I pay the same amount monthly as everyone else and I want to experience all of eve just like everyone else and right now it's just not an option, so what's the point of having a variety of space if you can't fly in it like everyone else?



Ok... So somehow people living in WHs where you probably wont even find them somehow lessens your EVE experience? Are you somehow unable to locate and enter these WHs that people live in? I haven't had this issue at all.

If your issue is that you're jealous of WH dwellers, join a corp that lives in a WH. If your issue is that the people who live in a WH killed you because you entered it, don't leave high sec. That will happen in pretty much any 0 sec space that you intrude upon the people who live there. Though, at least in a WH, you probably wont get jumped by a mega blob.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:40:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
When you enter a wormhole there should be some penalty to time. For example your skills train twice as slow in a C2 wormhole and in a C5 your skills stop completely.

There are just too many benefits to staying in a wormhole indefinitely and by having some penalties it would encourage players to do other things.

The more rich the wormhole is the greater the skill penalty for training should be, this would also help to restore 0.0 systems to have a useful purpose because there would be no time penalty to skills.


0/10

Bad troll. Try harder.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.09.14 23:41:00 - [18]
 

The issue that I have with the current WH system is not with how difficult it is to live in them or how many times I have been killed while flying in one (which is ZERO FYI), it's the whole concept of having the same resources as 0.0, which in my opinion is much harder to acquire then a WH, but you can disagree and go on a troll rampage.

If you think for a second that a WH is just as difficult as 0.0 you are really delusional. Anyone who argues that they are both equally difficult is not far off but to say that a WH is just as hard to play as 0.0 is just plain wrong it's that simple.

What would make a WH more difficult would be penalties not bonuses to ships, I proposed a training penalty to skills so if you decide to live in a WH your skills will train slower then someone who lives in 0.0 a truly hostile system. I don't recall a SINGLE 0.0 sector that gives any bonuses to ships, this makes the game play unbalanced in my eyes because ships of lower class and less training can acquire the same goods as those with more training.

I just think it's unbalanced as it is and there should be both benefits and penalties. If you disagree with that that's ok I want to hear more constructive criticism.



Valkerias
Posted - 2010.09.15 02:18:00 - [19]
 

Same resources as 0.0? I don't think so.

1.) NO ICE.

2.) No Mercoxit.

3.) No ownership/ sovereignty so no TITANS.

Sorry, but epic fail on your whole premise.

Ned Black
Posted - 2010.09.15 10:12:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Ned Black on 15/09/2010 10:12:40
Originally by: cyndrogen
...If you think for a second that a WH is just as difficult as 0.0 you are really delusional. Anyone who argues that they are both equally difficult is not far off but to say that a WH is just as hard to play as 0.0 is just plain wrong it's that simple...


Let me guess... you live in 0.0 and have never actually lived in any wormhole. You may have entered them a few times, but you never actually lived there... right?

Life in 0.0 can be hard when the rest of 0.0 decides to pounce on you, sure. Been there done that, but other than that I would say that WH space is WAY more dangerous than any "regular" 0.0.

The second you enter a 0.0 system everyone and their dog presently there will know about it due to the local channel. No matter what ship you use you can't hide the fact that you are there. I will not go into a rant about removing local from 0.0 since that is not part of this discusion, only that they should.

A couple of days ago when I found a 0.0 entrance from my wormhole I had people warping in droves to their POSes... and there were probably enough combat probes out within 30 seconds to cloud the sun... In WH they would not have seen me at all. Which would you say is more dangerous? The one where you instantly can see who is there or the one where someone just decloaks next to you and points you?

The biggest difference between WH and 0.0 is the fact that you can't easily bring a 200 man blob fleet in a WH. The gangs are smaller, but just as deadly. Traps come in plenty where one gang tries to bait you to attack, when you do they jump through and nail your a** to the... well... wormhole.

You have no intel channels telling you 15 minutes in advance that there is a gang incoming... the only way you can know is to sit on the other side and watch. You have your POS but POSes have limited resources, and to be frank it is when you begin living in a WH that you notice how utterly crap the POS permission system really is. Either you trust your corp mates completely or you need to do something else. In 0.0 this is not really a problem since it is good enough to allow access to someone temporarely if ever. You can store all your stuff in an unlimited private hangar in an outpost so why should you care? In a WH you share 6 corporate hangars with EVERYONE. Would you share your station hangar, including ships, with your corp mates?

As for bonuses, sure there are bonuses in WH space... sometimes... most of the time however you have no such bonuses... and guess what? There is not a single "bonus" wormhole that comes without drawbacks attached as well. Some wormholes are great for shields and bad for armor, other are good for armor and bad for shields. If you go in armor reppers and end up in a shield hole you may lose because of it... It all depends, but not a single one have just good effects across the board. But as I said. Most have no bonuses whatsoever good nor bad.

You can't have stations in wormholes, there is no real safety anywhere. Where starbase defence skills are good in 0.0 they are absolutely essential in WHs. If you die and have no backup scanner or friends left in the WH you may end up losing everything you have just like that. If you enter a neighbouring wormhole and it collapses and you were stupid enough not to bring scan probes... sorry... Self destruct sequence activated... you WON'T find your way out on your own, and in WH space people will prefere to put you on the losing side of a killmail before helping you out. Lets just say that I have picked up a couple of abandoned ships in wormholes before.

So if you think 0.0 is much harder to live in than a wormhole... think again. Besides, if it is so bloody easy, why don't you move into a WH and try to make a living out of it?

Oh, and if that little "bonus" of decreased training time would apply to wormholes, then it should apply to sov as well. No sov = good training, max sov = no traing... how would you like that?

Nicolo Medici
Posted - 2010.09.28 19:44:00 - [21]
 

I'm fairly new to Eve, I played a few years ago for awhile but not a lot even back then. So you can take my view as being from a fresh noob with a toon just barely over a month old.

I trained to salvage, figured as a noob it was a good way to make some isk, I moved into scanning for hack and arch sites, and have done fairly well. I have scanned down so many wormholes, frankly I am sick of them. But it's all part of the game, and I'm more or less chill about it. After you make 20+ jumps around in high-sec looking for a hack site, and scanning nothing but wormholes, I get bored and sometimes pop through.

I scan down WH space just to see what is up, a few times I scanned hack sites, buzzed in at 100km off to check it out, and once I was even able to agro, and then drag the sleepers out of a site just barely long enough to hack a can that didn't have anything in it. To be honest, I have no business screwing around in wormholes as I have no experience, no skills to speak of as of yet, no corp to back me, etc etc etc.

I don't really see how someone who is not part of a corp could really do anything to increase their isk, let alone benefit them more than they would benefit in 0.0. Yeah, I fly 0.0. I use a Vigil, a cloak 2, a 1mwd so I can pop through a gate, align to a celestial, cycle my mwd one time while cloaked and warp away without getting scrambled. I purchase salvage contracts at basis in 0.0 that I can resell for more at Hek. I make some good money screwing around in 0.0, and if you are careful, and mark more than 200km off a gate as you go in, you can easily avoid camps, bubbles, etc. For me, being a noob, being a single player without the backing of a corp, 0.0 is better for me by far.

So the way I see it, WH is no good unless you have the backing of a corp you trust, have enough skills to be able to survive long enough to glean something of value, and even at that you are splitting with your corp mates. The potential to get killed is much higher in WH just because you are dealing with sleepers of unknown types, who might be using any equipment so you can't use specific mods to counter their equipment, on and on and on and on.

So really you are talking about discouraging people from going into WH, when frankly, it's discouraging enough. You are also talking about penalizing people with training skills, when anyone who ventures forth into WH probably already has whatever skills they really need anyway, mute point. Realistically you wouldn't want to stay very long, and if you did logistics become very difficult indeed.

Why are you worried about players doing other things anyway? I don't understand what problem you have with players spending their entire playtime in WH space, I mean seriously, I don't get it. By your argument you should penalize players who just mine, because they can make insane amounts of isk and they should be encouraged (forced) to do other things. And the freighters who hall tons and tons, billions of isk worth of stuff each run. They should be penalized also, forced to do other things. Oh, and lets not forget the pirates who perm live in 0.0 space and don't ever venture into high sec. We have to figure out a way to force them to do other things as well. And what about those people who are only the corp type, shouldn't we run them out of their corps, into the wild somehow and make them, force them to do other things?

It seems that you are just one of those people that are so bothered by what other people do, and so concerned, that you want to force them to do whatever you believe they should want to do. There should be no training penalty for anything, it should stay the same for everything. And one last thought, if WH space was so great, why hasn't everyone that could, moved there yet?

oricle delphi
Posted - 2010.09.28 20:07:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: oricle delphi on 28/09/2010 20:08:47
wh's are a different kind of hard. comparing to 0.0 is just totally wrong.

ok sure it pays well but you gotta work bloody hard and invest a hell of alot into it in order to get something good out of it. i personaly spent 3 months trg so i could make t3 (just for 1 type of ship). for that time i spent working as a team whenever we could to build up a supply to use once i was rdy. when i was i had to invest billions in setting up the infrastructure in order to do this. it will take me months to even see the fruits of my labour.

wh systems are there to be exploited as is 0.0. only difference is 0.0 takes a cloaked ship or a huge fleet to get into.

Etrias Jhozah
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2010.09.28 20:46:00 - [23]
 

*sigh* Nice necro of a dead thread.

But seeing this has reared its ugly head again, let's not stray off topic and debate the merits of 0.0 vs. WH space.

The OP still has not offered a vaguely passable reason why people who are in a WH should suffer skill training penalties when every other corner of space has no such restrictions. Even prompted for the so-called benefits to living in WH space vs. anywhere else, the OP can't even be bothered to answer that question. The issues with living in WH space?
  • No ice fields
  • No Mercoxit
  • Necessary POS logistics
  • Delayed local
  • Decreasing number of spawns as you stay longer
  • WH bonuses/penalties

That last one is a lot of fun too, especially if you get a penalty towards targeting range and have to be within 6km to even get a lock on an asteroid to mine. Lots of fun doing grav sites that spawn when you have to slow boat the length of the entire field just to get a couple of worthwhile rocks. Rolling Eyes

This isn't the stupidest idea I've heard of, but it's close.


 

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