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Cikulisuy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2010.09.05 02:31:00 - [31]
 

pantheist master-race reporting in, ibtl

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.05 02:47:00 - [32]
 

Bible sing along as provided by my alliance... creepy as hell

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.05 02:50:00 - [33]
 

Agnostics and the apathetic have no faith.

Everyone else, and I mean EVERYONE else, does have faith, very much including atheists.

I'm a religious friendly agnostic myself.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.05 03:26:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Agnostics and the apathetic have no faith.

Everyone else, and I mean EVERYONE else, does have faith, very much including atheists.

I'm a religious friendly agnostic myself.



Point of inquiry, how do atheists have faith? I'm an atheist due to the complete lack of any evidence of an invisible friend in the sky. Evidence of said invisible fairy would lead me to become an agnostic and further evidence would lead me into following whatever the other thing is that's "evil" because evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb Cool

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.05 03:51:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Lance Fighter on 05/09/2010 03:51:48
Originally by: Intense Thinker
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Agnostics and the apathetic have no faith.

Everyone else, and I mean EVERYONE else, does have faith, very much including atheists.

I'm a religious friendly agnostic myself.



Point of inquiry, how do atheists have faith? I'm an atheist due to the complete lack of any evidence of an invisible friend in the sky. Evidence of said invisible fairy would lead me to become an agnostic and further evidence would lead me into following whatever the other thing is that's "evil" because evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb Cool


his logic is that there is some magical divide between atheism and agnosticism... one that divides 'there is no god' and 'i believe in no god'.
I suppose technically true, but one is 'i know where i stand' and one is 'i love sitting on fences'.

edit for clarity, atheism: 'i believe in the lack of god', agnosticism: 'i have no belief in god(s)'

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2010.09.05 04:27:00 - [36]
 

You guys seem to have trouble with those terms.

Agnosticism deals with the knowledge of the metaphysical and does not answer the question whether one believes in it or not.

Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s), it does not entail a specific reason for disbelief. Unless you believe in one or more gods, you are by definition an atheist, whether out of ignorance or out of conscious rejection. There are little adjectives (strong, weak, positive, negative, apathetic and more) you can stick in front of it to profess your very important beliefs in greater detail, but nobody really bothers, or should bother.

Masao Battousai
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2010.09.05 04:38:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Masao Battousai on 05/09/2010 15:28:16
Edited by: Masao Battousai on 05/09/2010 15:27:47
Originally by: Charles Baker
Richard Dawkins.


I thought the image of Carl Sagan was Richard Dawkins!

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.05 08:23:00 - [38]
 

Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Agnostic: Leaves open the possibiliy that is, or is not, a God, until such time as more information becomes available

(on the chance that there is a God, I'm not expecting any information before Death....)

CORE POINT:

Atheists fall back onto scientific principles to deal with a concept that if true, is beyond science. To put it another way, if science can explain it, then it CAN'T be God (although it might be a space alien...). If there is an actual "God", then he (it?) created space/time/science/etc as a sort of fish bowl for people (not limiting the word "people" to "humans"...). That means that "God" really IS unknowable by any measurement or experiment or test we might do.

Or maybe there really is nothing.....

The only thing that is certain is that science can't answer the question.


TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.09.05 09:40:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Agnostic: Leaves open the possibiliy that is, or is not, a God, until such time as more information becomes available

(on the chance that there is a God, I'm not expecting any information before Death....)

CORE POINT:

Atheists fall back onto scientific principles to deal with a concept that if true, is beyond science. To put it another way, if science can explain it, then it CAN'T be God (although it might be a space alien...). If there is an actual "God", then he (it?) created space/time/science/etc as a sort of fish bowl for people (not limiting the word "people" to "humans"...). That means that "God" really IS unknowable by any measurement or experiment or test we might do.

Or maybe there really is nothing.....

The only thing that is certain is that science can't answer the question.




I would summarize the differences as:

Atheist - I don't think there is a god/gods/divine order
Agnostic - I don't care
Theist - I think there is

Like all thoughts, they are based on a large amount of emotion. There are logical arguments against specifics gods and religions, loopholes of logic found in scriptures and philosophical problems - but this core decision is impossible to prove logically. You either feel it or you do not, or you do not care either way. There is not fault either way, you just have to prevent being a **** about it.

At the end of the day I think most people create their own religion, I know alot of non-religious people who believe in some vague concept of an afterlife, and plenty of religious people who ignore parts to craft a religion suiting their lifestyle or personal outlook. I don't think thats usually right, but I am guilty of it too.

Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
Posted - 2010.09.05 10:30:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Religious people often state this, that you either BELIEVE in god or BELIEVE there is no god and that therefore they are both belief systems (and are therefore as valid as each other). This is incorrect. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Theism has belief, atheism does not. They are qualitatively different positions.
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Agnostic: Leaves open the possibiliy that is, or is not, a God, until such time as more information becomes available

Actually this is more like atheism. Most atheists would be open to acknowledging the existence of a god if evidence for god's existence was discovered.
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheists fall back onto scientific principles to deal with a concept that if true, is beyond science. To put it another way, if science can explain it, then it CAN'T be God....That means that "God" really IS unknowable by any measurement or experiment or test we might do.

If a god is beyond science then it is a god who has no effect on the world in any way.

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.05 11:23:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Agnostic: Leaves open the possibiliy that is, or is not, a God, until such time as more information becomes available

(on the chance that there is a God, I'm not expecting any information before Death....)

CORE POINT:

Atheists fall back onto scientific principles to deal with a concept that if true, is beyond science. To put it another way, if science can explain it, then it CAN'T be God (although it might be a space alien...). If there is an actual "God", then he (it?) created space/time/science/etc as a sort of fish bowl for people (not limiting the word "people" to "humans"...). That means that "God" really IS unknowable by any measurement or experiment or test we might do.

Or maybe there really is nothing.....

The only thing that is certain is that science can't answer the question.




I would summarize the differences as:

Atheist - I don't think there is a god/gods/divine order
Agnostic - I don't care
Theist - I think there is

Like all thoughts, they are based on a large amount of emotion. There are logical arguments against specifics gods and religions, loopholes of logic found in scriptures and philosophical problems - but this core decision is impossible to prove logically. You either feel it or you do not, or you do not care either way. There is not fault either way, you just have to prevent being a **** about it.

At the end of the day I think most people create their own religion, I know alot of non-religious people who believe in some vague concept of an afterlife, and plenty of religious people who ignore parts to craft a religion suiting their lifestyle or personal outlook. I don't think thats usually right, but I am guilty of it too.



Oh, I can assure you that it is NOT a matter of 'not caring'.

I don't believe in any God, and I don't dis-believe either, but I do "hope" that there is a God of the gentler type.

As far as life goes, if anything, I worship free will, responsibility and good will. Science ain't even on the list. Science is a tool. (and damn good one when used with a clear mind)

Viral Effect
Caldari
BRAINDEAD Corp
Posted - 2010.09.05 11:39:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Albert Einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.


Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2010.09.05 12:06:00 - [43]
 

You are redefining terms to suit your own understanding, you would do well to stick to the actual definitions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.05 12:11:00 - [44]
 

*Gets the popcorn and 1g of weed* Shocked

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2010.09.05 12:44:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Florio
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Religious people often state this, that you either BELIEVE in god or BELIEVE there is no god and that therefore they are both belief systems (and are therefore as valid as each other). This is incorrect. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Theism has belief, atheism does not. They are qualitatively different positions


Just as science has not proved the existence of a god it has also failed to prove that a god does not exist, if someone actively rejects the idea that a god exists it is a form of faith or belief.

Quote:
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing

Quote:
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.


By both of these definitions trusting that something is true in the absence of empirical evidence is "having faith." I am sorry if your such a rabid and ignorant atheist that the idea of having any kind of faith is offensive to you but denying this makes you just as blinkered and blind as the people who believe in sky wizards.

Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
Posted - 2010.09.05 13:10:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Intense Thinker
Bible sing along as provided by my alliance... creepy as hell
Dude, wtf?Shocked

Verrenici
Posted - 2010.09.05 14:06:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran

Just as science has not proved the existence of a god it has also failed to prove that a god does not exist, if someone actively rejects the idea that a god exists it is a form of faith or belief.


You'll never get through to them. The average Atheist will read what you just said and assume you believe a bible-god exists. The scientific method only applies when they want it to. If ignoring it gets their name on the front page of science weekly, they won't think twice (lol Stephen Hawking).

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.09.05 15:03:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God
No, it's the lack of faith that there is such a thing as God. It's not a very difficult concept to wrap your head around.




Nizari Hishishin
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.09.05 15:37:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Nizari Hishishin
Edited by: Nizari Hishishin on 04/09/2010 22:21:47
As I said before, I'll stop this thread here and now. I'd rather it get locked for inactivity, than by a moderator. As a humanist and an atheist I came across this picture, it seems to a be a culture in and of itself with these one sentence principalic (I made that word up) photos. I'll leave to each person to define who was and wasn't an atheist. I just wanted to know who each of the people where (I saved it as my desktop for future study). I found it disturbing that someone would post a picture of someone claiming they held a belief that they might not of, while not including their name in the photo. I thank you CPT Placeholder for your clarity.


I think said person would be more offended by your 'might not of', Chavy Cheese.


Rubbish!

Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
Posted - 2010.09.05 18:03:00 - [50]
 

Hey Jhagiti, I'm not going to repeat what people have already written in this thread in addressing your points, but you hold an incorrect position on this.

I'll just say that science has also failed to prove that fairies and unicorns do not exist. I'd say I know they don't exist. You can say you believe they don't exist if you want, leaving open the option that they in fact do.

Verrenici
Posted - 2010.09.05 18:22:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Florio
I'll just say that science has also failed to prove that fairies and unicorns do not exist. I'd say I know they don't exist. You can say you believe they don't exist if you want, leaving open the option that they in fact do.


You realize you're comparing folklore to the origin of existence and matter? I don't get why you refuse to stop equating a possible (keyword here, I know how you taperecorders love 'missing' those) unknown influence on the beginning of life and the universe with fairytale creatures and religious deities. It makes you look as shortsighted and unintelligent as the person you're parroting.

ceaon
Posted - 2010.09.05 18:32:00 - [52]
 

i hope your are tolling like ppl www.landoverbaptist.net if you are truly genuine about this faith thing I will like to say i feel sorry for you but I cant say that because I dont truly feel that(since you are not on my Dunbar sphere).
And since nobody can have a decent talk whit ppl that are mental problems i mean having invisible friends on the sky is not a normal thing. If you believe this line is to strong you can make simple check, replace your god whit X, then say "X is on the sky and is protecting me and i pray to X each week" then replace whit X whit aliens, green little man, unicorns or anything you can imagine.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2010.09.05 19:32:00 - [53]
 

This **** is still rolling? I would imagine the mods were all over this with the banhammer by now.

In my defense I'd like to state; 'The power of christ compelled me!'

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.09.05 20:10:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: ceaon
i hope your are tolling like ppl www.landoverbaptist.net if you are truly genuine about this faith thing I will like to say i feel sorry for you but I cant say that because I dont truly feel that(since you are not on my Dunbar sphere).
And since nobody can have a decent talk whit ppl that are mental problems i mean having invisible friends on the sky is not a normal thing. If you believe this line is to strong you can make simple check, replace your god whit X, then say "X is on the sky and is protecting me and i pray to X each week" then replace whit X whit aliens, green little man, unicorns or anything you can imagine.


lol. They see me trollin...

And your grammar does the intellectual argument proud, son.

Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.09.05 20:15:00 - [55]
 

Atheism is the lack of belief in any god. Theism is lack of belief in all gods but one (or one group).

Koro Sarum
Amarr
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.09.05 20:20:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Koro Sarum on 05/09/2010 20:22:14
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Originally by: Florio
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Atheist: FAITH that there is no such thing as God

Religious people often state this, that you either BELIEVE in god or BELIEVE there is no god and that therefore they are both belief systems (and are therefore as valid as each other). This is incorrect. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Theism has belief, atheism does not. They are qualitatively different positions


Just as science has not proved the existence of a god it has also failed to prove that a god does not exist, if someone actively rejects the idea that a god exists it is a form of faith or belief.



Originally by: Academician Prokhor Zakharov

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist.


Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.05 21:46:00 - [57]
 

I still looking for Jebus, he owes me money. Evil or Very Mad

Charles Baker
Gallente
Unour Heavy Industries
Posted - 2010.09.05 23:18:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Intense Thinker
I still looking for Jebus, he owes me money. Evil or Very Mad


Got bored and nailed him to some wood roughly 2010 years ago, was totally worth it!

DarkSchneider666
Posted - 2010.09.06 02:27:00 - [59]
 

There is no God, only spaceships! Too bad those Amarrians think otherwise.

Yesh
Unjustified Ancients of MuMu
Posted - 2010.09.06 03:17:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Verrenici
Originally by: Florio
I'll just say that science has also failed to prove that fairies and unicorns do not exist. I'd say I know they don't exist. You can say you believe they don't exist if you want, leaving open the option that they in fact do.


You realize you're comparing folklore to the origin of existence and matter? I don't get why you refuse to stop equating a possible (keyword here, I know how you taperecorders love 'missing' those) unknown influence on the beginning of life and the universe with fairytale creatures and religious deities. It makes you look as shortsighted and unintelligent as the person you're parroting.


Having a God to create the origin of existence and matter only creates a bigger and more complex problem. If you find the idea of the universe just popping in to existence hard to believe then surely a God who is capable of creating a universe just popping in to existence is even more far fetched.

The God/Diety whatever would have to be at least as complex as the universe it created and therefore even less probable.

God is an easy way to explain things we don't understand without having to provide any proof. At one time people believed in a sun god and a rain god. Now we have provable evidence that the sun is a star burning fuel and that rain falls due to evaporation and condensation of water. No one believes in a sun god or rain god anymore.

If we can one day explain the start of the universe (I deliberately avoid using the word creation here) with solid scientific evidence then there will be no place for god to hide.

Whilst at the moment science can't disprove god, it can prove that a god is extremely unlikely in the same way fairys and unicorns are extremely unlikely.


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