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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 08:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 02/09/2010 17:54:04

Hydra Financial Services (HFS) is from today providing regular saving accounts to the public.

HFS is a new entity owned 100% by the investors of Hydra Investment Fund (Hydra). HFS has two capacities atm, a) unsecured loans (only to former investors), and b) the new savings accounts.

For you as investor it simply means you have the choice of placing your isk either directly in Hydra, where profit is variable and unknown, or open an account with HFS and receive a certain fixed interest rate. We wish to serve both types of investor.

HFS offers accounts at 2%, 2.5%, or 3% monthly interest. The exact regulations for both Hydra investors and for HFS accounts are found here. You are free to transfer your account between the two branches.

(So why did we suddenly create another enterprise? Sorry if this is confusing: Basically HFS is an administrative tool. Hydra itself belongs to the investors through their shares, shares are created with each deposit, and shares acquire profit. But deposits in HFS do not create shares, HFS accounts do not increase the size of Hydra, and they have no claim to profits. That’s why they are separate entities.)


**************************************************************************

Report on Hydra Fund as of September 1:

The size of the fund is currently 86 bn isk. Liquidity is 24 bn isk. Stock is 16 bpos.
4 bpos were sold in August for a profit of 1.7 bn isk - altogether I have sold 20 bpos for a profit of 9.6 bn.

Share value grew from 1.20 to 1.22 in August.

There are currently 23 investors besides myself. My own share value is 13 bn isk.
Other investors besides myself have to date invested 85 bn isk and withdrawn 18 bn isk.

All this can be seen in the accounts spreadsheet. Contact me if you wish to view the accounts.

Predicted share value growth for August is 3 %.

A holding corp has been established to lock down a portion of Hydra assets. Currently it has locked down bpos of a value of 36 bn isk. The trustees are: Breaker77, Dalden V, Kithran, Lord Arbalest, Magnu Stormhawk, RAW23. Edit: RAW23 withdrew.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.08.31 10:47:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 31/08/2010 10:57:17
Originally by: Cista2
A holding corp has been established to lock down a portion of Hydra assets. Currently it has locked down bpos of a value of 36 bn isk. The trustees are: Breaker77, Dalden V, Kithran, Lord Arbalest, Magnu Stormhawk, RAW23.

It is now up to the trustees (with consultation of Cista2) to develop a common stance on their priorities rgd the dissemination of liquidation proceeds in case of the fund manager disappearing/going rogue.

Investors in the Hydra Investment Fund seem to own equity, depositors are creditors of Hydra Investment Fund.

Using RL conventions all depositors would have to be repaid in the case of liquidation before equity owners get to see a single ISK (if debts >= assets, then equity <= 0 -- equity owners don't own anything and can be lucky to get away with limited liability Wink).

In EVE, it might make sense to go for different arrangements - but whatever these arrangements turn out to be, the exact conditions should be clearly advertised before HFS begins to accept deposits.

edit:
The first question to be answered would be "is Hydra liable for the debts of its wholly owned subsidiary HFS?"
If the answer to this is "yes" - "fully liable or only to a certain degree?"
and finally - "should servicing debt/resolving these transferred liabilities have precedence over saving equity?"

edit2: IMO these decisions should be primarily up to the current investors and trustees (rather than Cista2) as the most critical scenarios in which the consequences of these decisions do actually come to bear involve Cista2 having no say in what is left of Hydra Investment Fund anyways.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 11:08:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
"should servicing debt/resolving these transferred liabilities have precedence over saving equity?"
Good question. As you say, EVE arrangements do not have to mimic RL, but I will put it up for an investor vote today.

Business Classy
Business Class Investments
Posted - 2010.08.31 12:39:00 - [4]
 

I just can't shake the thought of HYDRA RELOADED with this name, sorry Cista Embarassed

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.31 16:36:00 - [5]
 

What is the minimum deposit for Savings Accounts?

What will the capital requirement be for the bank deposits (in terms of percentage of liabilities aka deposits)?

Are there unlimited withdrawals?

What is the mechanism of depositing/withdrawing/opening accounts?

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 16:48:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 31/08/2010 16:51:15

Originally by: Lucyna
What is the minimum deposit for Savings Accounts?
There isn't an official one yet, one may be applied later. But if someone wants to deposit less than 100 mil I would probably advise them to use the isk elsewhere and get much more out of it.

Originally by: Lucyna
What will the capital requirement be for the bank deposits (in terms of percentage of liabilities aka deposits)?
Wow, I have no idea what you are saying there.

Originally by: Lucyna
Are there unlimited withdrawals?
Yes. There is however until further notice a 1 month delay on withdrawals on 3% accounts - I want to scare people away from those (and partially scare people away from depositing altogether until I see how much we get)

Originally by: Lucyna
What is the mechanism of depositing/withdrawing/opening accounts?
You should contact me and chat about account type and such, but apart from that transfer isk to Hydra Investment Fund and give me notice.

Edit: about unlimited withdrawals: because of liquidity there can be delays on withdrawing large sums (above 10-15 bn) - this is already mentioned in the Hydra charter. So if someone wants to deposit that much we have to talk about that.

Mme Pinkerton
The pink win
Posted - 2010.08.31 16:55:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 31/08/2010 17:21:20
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 31/08/2010 16:57:26
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Lucyna
What will the capital requirement be for the bank deposits (in terms of percentage of liabilities aka deposits)?
Wow, I have no idea what you are saying there.

wikipedia:
Capital requirement

also see the references to:
* fractional reserve banking
* reserve requirement

edit: most of that stuff is not easily transferable to EVE, but you should at least have some guidelines on how much cash to keep "at hand" in order to be able to service withdrawals in a timely fashion.

The art of running a small bank in MD relies to a big part on being able to manage one's cash reserves well.
HFS accepts deposits and invests these in loans. Usually loans are fairly long-term business agreements and cannot be withdrawn by the bank on short notice. Demand deposits on the other hand can be withdrawn at any time on very short notice.
You finance yourself with short-term/unknown-term debt and put the ISK into long-term investments.
For this to work you either need a lot of (idle) cash at hand (which seriously impacts your profitability) or the ability to refinance yourself at very short notice (which is - in the absence of an inter-bank market in MD - at the very least difficult).
The larger your customer-base (the smaller the impact of individual customers on your balance sheet) the more predictable becomes your need for cash, if you have only very few customers you should better look to get some credit lines in place which you can draw upon on very short notice (giving HFS a line of credit with Hydra Investment Fund would be bad but still better than nothing).

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 17:21:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
you should at least have some guidelines on how much cash to keep "at hand" in order to be able to service withdrawals in a timely fashion.
Ah okay, well as I said above, human-sized deposits will not be a problem, and in case someone wants to deposit more than 10-15 bn isk, then we will have to talk it over. The largest investment in Hydra now is around 20 bn. With 20 bn you would maybe have to wait 2-3 weeks to get the full amount out.

But I am not encouraging deposits of that size right now. Violent growth hurts our profitz.

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:25:00 - [9]
 

I am seriously shocked that this thread has the audacity to exist.

So far everything that had to do with Hydra Reloaded has ended in some sort of scam or scandal.

I am also shocked that people are legitimately considering OPs offer despite the horrible history hydra has with being on the level.

Hydra is the love child of enron and citibank. Why the flying pasta shooting space hamsters would anybody sane give them any money or responsibility?

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:30:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
you should at least have some guidelines on how much cash to keep "at hand" in order to be able to service withdrawals in a timely fashion.
Ah okay, well as I said above, human-sized deposits will not be a problem, and in case someone wants to deposit more than 10-15 bn isk, then we will have to talk it over. The largest investment in Hydra now is around 20 bn. With 20 bn you would maybe have to wait 2-3 weeks to get the full amount out.

But I am not encouraging deposits of that size right now. Violent growth hurts our profitz.


I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that what she was asking was do you have a plan in place in case some unknown event occurs and suddenly there is a run on the bank with large numbers of depositors withdrawing large sums at once.

I am a total noob as far as MD stuff goes, but to my untrained eye that seems to be a potential problem... IF you get say a large pool of depositors that put more money into your Bank than your main investment company has, how would you weather a mass exodus?

Another previously asked question which I don't think was answered was what, if any, relationship will exist bewteen your Bank entity and your main Investment entity? In other words, does the depositors investments go to the Investment entity for investment there, or is it invested separately?

If the deposit money is invested into your main company and in the(hopefully unlikely!)event that you lose money, who gets "paid back" first - depositors or investors?

Although it sounds to me like you are still working out some of the details overall, I appluad the initiative!

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.08.31 18:54:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Xenuria

So far everything that had to do with Hydra Reloaded has ended in some sort of scam or scandal.

I am also shocked that people are legitimately considering OPs offer despite the horrible history hydra has with being on the level.



You are mistaken here, I'm afraid.

Cista's "Hydra" has nothing to do with the alliance named Hydra Reloaded at all. Cista uses the "Hydra" label for investments for quite some time now.

To be honest, I've seen this exact potential problem arise and suggested to go for a different name for this venture on the internal mailing list. Alas - too few shared my concern.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 19:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
do you have a plan in place in case some unknown event occurs and suddenly there is a run on the bank with large numbers of depositors withdrawing large sums at once
No such plan exists as of yet. If all investors all of a sudden wanted their isk back some of them would have to wait. It can hardly be different when their isk is working. If a terrible event occurred then we would all be in trouble, to me that's the nature of terrible events. What we can do is to try and minimize the risk of bad events happening (as in the lockdown of assets), but if CCP for instance nerfed T2 bpos we would be ****ed.

Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
In other words, does the depositors investments go to the Investment entity for investment there, or is it invested separately?

Yes, sorry if that hasn't been stated clearly. HFS is a tool for Hydra, and Hydra will use the isk.

Zea Aestria
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hel O'Ween
Originally by: Xenuria

So far everything that had to do with Hydra Reloaded has ended in some sort of scam or scandal.

I am also shocked that people are legitimately considering OPs offer despite the horrible history hydra has with being on the level.



You are mistaken here, I'm afraid.

Cista's "Hydra" has nothing to do with the alliance named Hydra Reloaded at all. Cista uses the "Hydra" label for investments for quite some time now.



Actually, this is at least the second thread where Xenuria has mistakenly associated Cista's Hydra with the alliance Hydra Reloaded. Xenuria did not acknowledge attempts to correct him before, and I doubt he will this time. I have seen other posts by Xenuria where he seems to be shockingly ignorant. My take is that he is a troll.

Phoebe Halliwel
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:19:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
2% accounts have a 20 months dead man clause, plus 4 months response time after the letter is sent.
2.5 % accounts have a 10 month dead man clause, plus 2 months response time.
3 % accounts have a 5 months dead man clause, plus 1 months response time.

Isn't this the "Dead Pilots Fund" (aka Ponzi scheme/lottery) you tried to launch a few months ago and abandoned, in the face of fairly significant criticism both of the plan and you personally?

Not trying to get at you here, your Hydra fund seems to be progressing successfully, but you do not seem capable of running this expansion you are proposing, for several reasons.

1. You are stating that a portion of Hydra assets will be locked down, but you don't appear to have discussed with existing investors whether they are prepared to use their assets as collateral for this expansion.
2. You don't understand/haven't considered how much ISK you will need to keep on hand
3. You haven't stated how you will use these funds to generate additional revenue
4. You haven't been audited recently (or ever? not sure), do you plan to do that at any point? If not, why not?
5. What will be the cap on this fund for the short and long term?
6. Apart from the locked down BPOs, this is a one man show isn't it? What is your "hit by a bus" strategy for this fund?
7. You have repeatedly, in both proposed and existing offerings, tried to institute clauses to retain investor funds if they are out of game for a period of time, despite sustained criticism.
8. You've attempted to change the terms on your own offerings after launch on a few occasions, looks like you managed to get the Dead Pilots clause added to Hydra on the 17th August, several months after the fund started. Did the investors vote in favour of that clause, were they consulted?
9. That "dead man" clause is tucked away in the linked document, not on the start of this thread where it should be. Why are you trying to hide such an important clause?

Stripping out the banking phrases like "savings account", this is appears to be an uncollateralised offering, not very well presented, with an incredibly low ROI and the risk of investor funds being clawed back if they are out of the game for over 6 months. If previous banking-style offering failures have suggested anything, it's that transparency and reporting are essential for success, but you appear to be completely ignoring that.

There was also this more recently:
Originally by: Cista2
To those of you that are/already have been sending me isk: you should really learn to read. I have other things to deal with, so I am simply going to keep your isk. After the 1st you can try to get it back or get shares.

That was criticised by 3 people, you didn't even bother to address the issue or respond to Ji Sama's comments. That offering is looking pretty dead in the water now, probably as a result of your comments. When there is an issue with an action you take, why do you not respond to criticism?

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:26:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Cista2
Report on Hydra Fund as of September 1:

The size of the fund is currently 86 bn isk. Liquidity is 24 bn isk. Stock is 16 bpos.
4 bpos were sold in August for a profit of 1.7 bn isk - altogether I have sold 20 bpos for a profit of 9.6 bn.

Share value grew from 1.20 to 1.22 in August.

There are currently 23 investors besides myself. My own share value is 13 bn isk.
Other investors besides myself have to date invested 85 bn isk and withdrawn 18 bn isk.

All this can be seen in the accounts spreadsheet. Contact me if you wish to view the accounts.

Is there any independent confirmation that these accounts have any bearing on reality?

Is it correct that you've paid out about 3.6B in dividends so far?

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:44:00 - [16]
 

@ Phoebe + Estel

The current and former investors in Hydra are:
"49473"
Aggelos Theristes
Alacta Lithia
Cista2
Dalden V
Dexter Hunt
Dezolf
Elegbara
Etharion Calthon
Flakeys
Hel O'Ween
Kalms
Llu
Lo'ken
Magnu Stormhawk
Marcus Baltar
Omega Tron
Onyth
Simmonite
Sandrane Kipler
The Mattius
Torain
Victor Ludorum
Vonlin Vonulus
Justine Asher
Julian Koll
Jasdemi
Hesiodos
Terrare Vordai
Nlor Rath
George Colren
Rykker Bow
Gatan Hahran

- hopefully some of them can confirm that they do exist ;)

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:49:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Estel Arador on 31/08/2010 20:49:57
Originally by: Cista2
@ Phoebe + Estel

The current and former investors in Hydra are:

(...)

- hopefully some of them can confirm that they do exist ;)


I'm sorry but that's not an answer to what I was asking (and while I wouldn't want to speak for anyone else, I don't think it's an answer to what Phoebe was asking). Bernie Madoff had plenty of investors, but his business sucked.

My questions are closed ('yes/no') questions, though a more elaborate response would be appreciated.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:53:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Cista2
@ Phoebe + Estel

The current and former investors in Hydra are:

Flakeys

- hopefully some of them can confirm that they do exist ;)


Confirming investment


Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:55:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Xenuria on 31/08/2010 21:06:11
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
do you have a plan in place in case some unknown event occurs and suddenly there is a run on the bank with large numbers of depositors withdrawing large sums at once
No such plan exists as of yet. If all investors all of a sudden wanted their isk back some of them would have to wait. It can hardly be different when their isk is working. If a terrible event occurred then we would all be in trouble, to me that's the nature of terrible events. What we can do is to try and minimize the risk of bad events happening (as in the lockdown of assets), but if CCP for instance nerfed T2 bpos we would be ****ed.

Originally by: Bernard Schuyler
In other words, does the depositors investments go to the Investment entity for investment there, or is it invested separately?

Yes, sorry if that hasn't been stated clearly. HFS is a tool for Hydra, and Hydra will use the isk.



Oh boy I knew it...

Pro Scamming ITT


ATTENTION
: This Thread is a Scam. You have been warned.


Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:55:00 - [20]
 

Just seizing on a couple of Phoebe's points here:
Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel

2. You don't understand/haven't considered how much ISK you will need to keep on hand
3. You haven't stated how you will use these funds to generate additional revenue

Please understand that HFS is just a tiny extension on Hydra Fund, it's not changing anything if we get 5-10 bn extra here.

Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel
Did the investors vote in favour of that clause, were they consulted?
The investors own the fund and they decide everything. Although I have plenty of ideas they can stop me by voting "no".

Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel
with an incredibly low ROI and the risk of investor funds being clawed back if they are out of the game for over 6 months. If previous banking-style offering failures have suggested anything, it's that transparency and reporting are essential for success, but you appear to be completely ignoring that.
The Hydra Fund has always been low ROI and so are the HFS accounts. Dead Man's Clause is a great idea IMO and the investors did not disagree. Transparency is a ***** when accounts must be confidential, but I am trying to improve reporting and open to any suggestions.

Dezolf
Minmatar
DAX Action Stance
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:56:00 - [21]
 

I'll (try to) answer some of Pheobe's questions.
1. Cista has been sending out evemails to a mailing list (which I believe is publicly available) with discussions of several of the current expansions and propositions, of which some have been shot down and some have been approved.

3. It is stated that they will be used "by Hydra", by this, I am assuming the fund will use the funds to buy/sell more BPO's (although, I may or may not have read this somewhere else)

6. One of the trustees have (or "will have") an alt in the holding corp with the authority to "fix things" should Cista be hit by a bus (again, I may have read this somewhere else)

8. Again, evemails and such have been sent out, and things were discussed.

Also, I can confirm that I have deposited 530m on the 22nd of April for 500 shares in Hydra (share price at the time was 1.06m).

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2010.08.31 20:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Estel Arador
Is it correct that you've paid out about 3.6B in dividends so far?

Not sure what you mean here, Hydra is an investment fund and does not pay out dividends.

Btw, all my ventures are summed up here - updated earlier today.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Estel Arador
Is it correct that you've paid out about 3.6B in dividends so far?

Not sure what you mean here, Hydra is an investment fund and does not pay out dividends.


What I mean is that, from the numbers you reported above, you seem to be missing 3.6B isk.
Isk invested + profits - isk withdrawn - unknown (3.6B) = fund size.

Perhaps it would be more clear if I had a look at your full accounts, but that's what my other questions is for - to see if it would be useful at all to have a look there.

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:09:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Estel Arador
Is it correct that you've paid out about 3.6B in dividends so far?

Not sure what you mean here, Hydra is an investment fund and does not pay out dividends.

Btw, all my ventures are summed up here - updated earlier today.


So you just flat out admitted that you have no intentions of paying anybody back. You and your little scam are dead in the water.

If 80% of the market sub-forum wasn't scam threads already this would probably be locked by now.

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:14:00 - [25]
 

Confirming my investment in the Hydra fund.

Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel

8. You've attempted to change the terms on your own offerings after launch on a few occasions, looks like you managed to get the Dead Pilots clause added to Hydra on the 17th August, several months after the fund started. Did the investors vote in favour of that clause, were they consulted?



That "Dead man's clause" has been proposed, discussed, adjusted and voted for on the above mentioned Hydra fund investor mailing list.

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:15:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Hel O'Ween
Confirming my investment in the Hydra fund.

Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel

8. You've attempted to change the terms on your own offerings after launch on a few occasions, looks like you managed to get the Dead Pilots clause added to Hydra on the 17th August, several months after the fund started. Did the investors vote in favour of that clause, were they consulted?



That "Dead man's clause" has been proposed, discussed, adjusted and voted for on the above mentioned Hydra fund investor mailing list.



Confirming my Investment in the Hydra fund

Phoebe Halliwel
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:18:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Cista2
The investors own the fund and they decide everything.

Are the investors, as owners of the fund, collateralising this expansion using their existing equity or not?

In the event the fund manager scams/leaves the game/the liquid ISK is lost, will liability be restricted to the fund, or will it extend to the Hydra fund shareholders if this expansion grows to exceed the locked down assets?

TonyCandthejets
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:22:00 - [28]
 

Confirming my 20b investment in hydra

Bernard Schuyler
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:25:00 - [29]
 

I am not sure why Xenuria is so upset, but while I still applaud the notion, I think this particular vision is a bit too risky... no personal slight intended on Cista.

Because of Eve's wallet mechanics, a lot of the normal features of a bank really aren't applicable. I don't need a checking account to pay bills, or somewhere to store my cash other than the mattress, or the need to wire monet hither and yon. The wallet does all that.

The bank as proposed doesn't make loans except to the parent company, and a select list of those who have had previous dealings with the investment fund.

So what is left is interest bearing savings. But in this case it sounds more like a giant unsecured bond that Hydra Investments can draw upon as needed, with a rotating pool of depositors who can alter the size of their stake at will. On the downside, they get no collateral and no stake in the investment company.

Why not just raise a month to month unsecured bond or something, and save yourself the hassle of manually performing God knows how many "Teller" transactions a week?

What happens if former investors don't need a loan, or the parent company doesn't need to use any depositor ISK? Then there is no profit generated, and you lose money paying interest on stagnant funds in wallet?

Again, I am an MD noob, and a lot of these discussions are above my head, but wouldn't a more potentially useful bank model in Eve be something that catered to corporations rather than individual investors? Some kind of reserve bank that successful corporations could loan and borrow from for short term isk fluctuation?

It just seems to me that with the way the Wallet functions, the individual savings investor may as well just stick with the normal bond offers and such that are commonly available.

Lecherito
Posted - 2010.08.31 21:27:00 - [30]
 

And so it begins again...

-L


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