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Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.09.03 03:43:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Belfelmalak on 03/09/2010 03:45:24
I'm a little confused on a couple of points.
1. I see people pointing out that using an AB will just get you webbed. That may in fact be true, but in most suggested loadouts I've seen for BC's, much like the one above, Webs are not included.
2. Commen logic seems to demand the use of a MWD, but arn't those disabled by warp scramblers and disrupters? Almost any Pvp loadout will include one of those, so I don't see how a MWD would be of use.
One last thing, I know a Cain is a fearsome ship with just 6 autocannons, but I don't see any loadouts for a harbi which should be able to sport 7 of them. Is there something about the harbi that makes ac's not practicle?

Victoria Davion
Posted - 2010.09.03 09:15:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 03/09/2010 03:45:24
I'm a little confused on a couple of points.
1. I see people pointing out that using an AB will just get you webbed. That may in fact be true, but in most suggested loadouts I've seen for BC's, much like the one above, Webs are not included.
2. Commen logic seems to demand the use of a MWD, but arn't those disabled by warp scramblers and disrupters? Almost any Pvp loadout will include one of those, so I don't see how a MWD would be of use.
One last thing, I know a Cain is a fearsome ship with just 6 autocannons, but I don't see any loadouts for a harbi which should be able to sport 7 of them. Is there something about the harbi that makes ac's not practicle?


In for a penny...

1) Using an afterburner won't get you webbed. Flying close enough to your opponent who's fitted a web will get you webbed. A web will mitigate the speed boost you get from your afterburner. Short-range battlecruisers will often fit webs, if they have the space to fit one.
2) MWD's are only disabled by scramblers, not disruptors. Scramblers have a range roughly equivalent to webifiers, so if you get tangled by both in your MWDing PVP boat of doom you're likely in trouble. However, if you can keep outside web/scram range you can keep your speed up and try to mitigate some of the missile damage from your missile spamming opponent.
One last thing) Harbingers get a bonus to laz0rzs, hurricane gets a bonus to projectiles. That's why you don't see many harby's fitted with autocannons...


Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 13:46:00 - [33]
 

1. Fit MWD, use shield buffer Harb
2. Kite HAM Drake at range with Scorch
3. Once you've reduced his shields switch to Multis and brawl him down if you want to end the fight faster

Works with Cane also, even better imo

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 15:18:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 15:18:43
Originally by: Kingwood
1. Fit MWD, use shield buffer Harb
2. Kite HAM Drake at range with Scorch
3. Once you've reduced his shields switch to Multis and brawl him down if you want to end the fight faster

Works with Cane also, even better imo


Javelins. >25 KM range.
Cane. Explosive damage.
Nice try though.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Why are you bothering to post

*snip* Please keep it civil. Shadow



Well I hope you enjoy it, this whole "having good fun of me" thing seems quite entertaining.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 15:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 15:18:43
Originally by: Kingwood
1. Fit MWD, use shield buffer Harb
2. Kite HAM Drake at range with Scorch
3. Once you've reduced his shields switch to Multis and brawl him down if you want to end the fight faster

Works with Cane also, even better imo


Javelins. >25 KM range.
Cane. Explosive damage.
Nice try though.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Why
null
are you bothering to post

Because im having
null
good fun of you.Laughing


Well I hope you enjoy it, this whole "having good fun of me" thing seems quite entertaining.


Unlike you I do know what I am talking about.

Hurricane vs 2 Ham Drakes

If you check the km you'll see that only 1 Drake had sentries as I hadaggressed the first Drake first.

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 18:31:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 18:32:15
Originally by: Kingwood
Unlike you I do know what I am talking about.

Hurricane vs 2 Ham Drakes

If you check the km you'll see that only 1 Drake had sentries as I hadaggressed the first Drake first.



So you killed two Drakes in your Hurricane. GZ.
I'm saying that Drakes can shoot up to 30km and only a ****** Drake pilot will let himself be kited.

I'm also saying that you lose more DPS in your Cane going 20KM away and using explosive damage than the Drake pilot does switching to Javelin.

BTW, one of the Drakes on that mail was using Rage HAMs. However did you defeat him Rolling Eyes?

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 19:22:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Kingwood on 03/09/2010 19:38:47
1. Who ever stated that I used explosive damage? Cane can vary it's damage type, if you didn't know. And gee-****ing-whee, I still have 20km falloff with faction ammo.

2. That Drake with Rage missiles I brawled after I had shot him from range and after I forced the other Drake to warp out. He died right after the other Drake landed again.

Go kill more haulers in Highsec. <3

Edit: Removed some unnecessary comments

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 20:19:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 20:23:58

Originally by: Kingwood
Edited by: Kingwood on 03/09/2010 19:38:47
1. Who ever stated that I used explosive damage? Cane can vary it's damage type, if you didn't know. And gee-****ing-whee, I still have 20km falloff with faction ammo.

I thought you were at least smart enough to use Barrage. Assuming you're using a Cane with 2 TEs (gets 20KM falloff with Rep Fleet Emp M, so I assume that's what you're using since you mentioned 20KM) and 3 Gyros (for a grand total of 707 DPS at point blank, inc drones), you will get 325 DPS at 20km, inc drones. Naic. I'm sure that Drake pilot is real sad you're kiting him.

Quote:
2. That Drake with Rage missiles I brawled after I had shot him from range and after I forced the other Drake to warp out. He died right after the other Drake landed again.

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow for using Rage instead of Faction. The point being, not only are you linking a killmail instead of answering what I said, you're linking a killmail against idiots, which proves even less than a decent killmail would.

Quote:
Go kill more haulers in Highsec. <3

Implying that being in lo-sec means you know what you're doing, even though you clearly don't.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 20:26:00 - [39]
 

M8, you still didn't get it. I don't need to kite him until he dies which would take ages, I just need to shoot him down to 3/4th shields, maybe a bit lower and then go into brawling range. In case he switches to Javelins, even better for me. So yeah, faction ammo is the best choice as I can burn right to him once his shields have gone down enough.

Anyways, have fun with your AB drake or whatever.

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 20:40:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 20:40:58
Originally by: Kingwood
M8, you still didn't get it. I don't need to kite him until he dies which would take ages, I just need to shoot him down to 3/4th shields, maybe a bit lower and then go into brawling range. In case he switches to Javelins, even better for me. So yeah, faction ammo is the best choice as I can burn right to him once his shields have gone down enough.


Now you're making even less sense.

So you kite him at the beginning with your measly 325 DPS, while he pummels you with Javelins. Then you realize it was stupid to try and kite him and you go close up?
OK :/.

Also, my AB drake would actually have a lot of fun with what you just suggested.

MWD would be useless since it couldn't catch you anyway if you didn't want to be caught.

However, when you used your uber "now I come in close for the kill >:)" tactic, I'd be kiting you in scram range (around 8KM or so, because AB scram web has easy range control over you, with neither a web nor a speed mod since your MWD is turned off), and you'd be losing around 50 DPS (ie 6-7% of your DPS, which matters, considering brawler cane vs ham drake is a pretty close match, especially if the drake takes 10 seconds to change to javelins at the beginning).

You were funny when you spoke about kiting a Drake.
You were even funnier when you spoke about doing it with a Hurricane.
Then you said you kited with faction ammo, cutting your turret DPS in half.
Now you're saying you only kite at the beginning (so it's fine to fail at the beginning by losing more DPS from being at range that he does, as long as you make up for it later by going in at close range).

Rolling Eyes

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 20:53:00 - [41]
 

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow So you're telling me that HAM Drakes start a fight loaded with Javelins from the start? Really?

I expect most HAM Drakes to have faction ammo loaded which means I can kite them while they're not doing damage to me. Should they for some strange reason have Javs loaded at the beginning I will ofc disengage and not burn into range as I'm going to lose more hitpoints than him.

The only reason to burn into range once you've reduced his shields is to end the fight fast.

I still don't understand how you expect to catch someone with an AB HAM Drake, but I guess you rely on others to tackle for you and loading Javs once someone starts burning away from your gang and then burning after them with an awesome 300 m/s.

Solo - you should try it sometime (and no, killing Shuttles in Highsec doesn't count).


Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 22:25:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 22:45:13
Originally by: Kingwood
*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow So you're telling me that HAM Drakes start a fight loaded with Javelins from the start? Really?

No, I actually specifically mentioned the fact that he'd be loading Javelins at the beginning.
Originally by: Roland Deschaines
considering brawler cane vs ham drake is a pretty close match, especially if the drake takes 10 seconds to change to javelins at the beginning.

Even taking into account that, your DPS at 20KM is so ridiculous you're still wrong.

Quote:
I expect most HAM Drakes to have faction ammo loaded which means I can kite them while they're not doing damage to me. Should they for some strange reason have Javs loaded at the beginning I will ofc disengage and not burn into range as I'm going to lose more hitpoints than him.

Even after 10 seconds of loading he'd probably win. After all in 10 seconds you only do 3.25K damage.

Quote:
The only reason to burn into range once you've reduced his shields is to end the fight fast.

You're implying that it's better to be at 20KM, but once you've gained a sufficient advantage, you go close up to finish fast. That makes sense, except it's not better to be at 20KM. THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE DPS YEAH.

Quote:
I still don't understand how you expect to catch someone with an AB HAM Drake, but I guess you rely on others to tackle for you and loading Javs once someone starts burning away from your gang and then burning after them with an awesome 300 m/s.

I don't, IIRC the OP was specifically about a fight where he expected the other to engage. I'd never fit an AB BC if I wasn't fighting on station or if it wasn't an arranged fight.

Quote:
Solo - you should try it sometime (and no, killing Shuttles in Highsec doesn't count).

I'm completely devastated by your allegations that I only blob shuttles in high sec (when all the PvP takes place in lo-sec, everybody knows that right).
You should try some more generic "kill <funny ship type here> in high sec" sentences. Maybe a Hulk, or an Osprey.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Also, my AB drake would actually have a lot of fun with what you just suggested.

M8, you did it again. Thanks.LaughingLaughing

So you are exactly what I posted earlier. One of those MWD = PVP M8, IF YOU DON'T FIT AN MWD YOU CAN'T PVP. Well, I hope it works out for you.

P.S. You claim the main problem with an AB is you can't catch people. At the same time, you criticize me for being a high-sec dude who kills shuttles while you do real pvp in lo-sec. Surely those "real pvp" guys in lo-sec will engage you, right? You don't need to catch them, since they're actual opponents who want to fight and not just shuttles. Rolling Eyes

Bap1811
Posted - 2010.09.03 22:53:00 - [43]
 

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow
Because 2 good ham drakes nuke a good hurricane any time of the day every day all week. At bets you should be able to flee. And thats pushing it.

Second off, you are absolutly correct when saying that Ham drake pilots will have Faction missiles loaded, and you are obviously lacking in intelligence so lemme make this as clear as can be. Even with your uber tactic he will still win.

Now, lets see if you can follow this:
10 seconds reload time? *snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow His buffer is so massive that he has more than enough time to tank you until he reloads. Not only that, but your dps is so bad, that once he starts shooting he will easily catch up those 10 seconds he spent reloading.

So really, you loose on both sides, those 10 seconds advantage you have doesnt compensate the fact that you have sub-par dps and far lower tank.

Laslty, keeping your MWD up to kite him actually helps his dps greatly. The radius increase will still be there, but you'll never actually be going at full speed to negate the radius effect, as you'll need to keep turning and slowing to keep in orbit or at your keep-at-range. Boohoo about cycles amiright? This bit might be too complicated for you, if you dont understand, dont bother responding.

Now, about your uber tactic to go in and brawl him down once you've "weakened" him. Ohwait, that doesnt work, because as explained earlier, he's been pounding on you this whole time with more dps (javs), and you've barely touched his buffer which is vastly larger than yours. He's gonna scram and web you, load Faction ammo, and obliterate you into the dust. Moreover when you come in range, admitably you'll be doing more dps, but considering he has a web and a scramf he'll easily kite you at 9km mitigating alot of your damage once again.

Assuming you were capable of thought, your whole tactic revolves around taking advantage while he changes missiles. I'm sorry, but the fact that he has 20-30K more EHP and more dps simply means that those extra seconds while hes reloading DONT ****ING MATTER.

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 23:03:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 23:05:10
BTW, unwebbed AB Drake can sustain a 161 m/s orbit at 950 meters.
That's an 18% DPS loss from tracking if the Drake decides to go up close against your Cane.
As if your huge DPS loss from "kiting" him (usually kiting is done by the ship with better range, hence the quotes around kiting) wasn't enough to swing the fight in the Drake's favor already.

Oh and to lulzgage, the Harbi loses 23% DPS to tracking to a webbed AB Drake. Pulse tracking ftl :(.

Updating with numbers because this time I actually simulated the orbit instead of guesstimating it.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.03 23:26:00 - [45]
 

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow

Laughing

It's okay getting support from your friends, Roland.

I'll say again, if the Drake is going for the "Burn away, turn, overload MWD and hope to get you into Web and then Scram range tactixxxx" he will not change missiles right away.

Either he succeeds, then I die. He does not succeed and keeps trying, I win. If he changes to Javs right away I'm gtfo. He changes to Javs later in the fight and not right away he's losing DPS and has lost HP already and then it's my decision whether to gtfo or burn to him.

Easy as that. Keep stating your fancy numbers while I'm playing the game.

Much love <3 <3 <3

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.03 23:33:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 03/09/2010 23:38:17
Originally by: Kingwood
It's okay getting support from your friends, Roland.

*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow
>That must mean I asked him to come post here Rolling Eyes and he's actually just pretending to agree with me.

Quote:
I'll say again, if the Drake is going for the "Burn away, turn, overload MWD and hope to get you into Web and then Scram range tactixxxx" he will not change missiles right away.

The drake pilot will laugh when he sees a Hurricane shooting him from 20km, and he'll fit Javelins. He knows you can disengage anyway.

Quote:
If he changes to Javs right away I'm gtfo.

So what you're saying is if he's not a ****** you have to run. I agree.

Quote:
He changes to Javs later in the fight and not right away he's losing DPS and has lost HP already

From your uber 325 DPS.

Quote:
and then it's my decision whether to gtfo or burn to him.

You mean your nano ship can actually decide whether or not to engage? DAMN.

Quote:
Easy as that. Keep stating your fancy numbers while I'm playing the game.

Quote:
Easy as that. Keep stating your fancy numbers while I'm sucking at the game because I think it magically works differently than what math says it'll work like.

FYP.
One day you will realize Eve is a glorified spreadsheet. Until then you will keep arguing with little catchphrases like that one, thinking you're awesome because you kill fail Drakes.

G'niluah Ch'tib
Posted - 2010.09.04 02:59:00 - [47]
 

@Lugalzagezi666 and Kingwood:

Please, be civil. Obivously Roland and Bap are coming from the Carebear point of view. To them, it does not matter if they get the Kill AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT DIE themselves. This is why Roland is more interested in using Afterburners and Javelins from the start, even though using Javelins means that a speed penalty is incurred and the chances of the Drake catching the Hurricane are even more reduced (as if there were any chances of catching another ship with an Afterburner in the beginning, lol).

Bap1811 jumping to Roland's defense is understandable, they are obviously friends and friends stick up for each other.

Also, no need to point out their Kill record for the umpteenth time. So Roland kills fail fits in Highsec and does not have a good kill record (well, he does have 227 kills compared to 96 losses, so maybe it's not that bad; Bap has 29 kills to 14 losses, but that is still no reason to doubt his PvP experience, he just enjoys the game differently). However, it does not matter, as long as they still enjoy the game, and Roland is correct that a HAM-Drake can quite simply drive off a Hurricane if it loads Javelins from the start, even though it means the Drake will get no kill on the Hurricane.

So, I think you all are correct, you're just coming from different viewpoints: A carebear's and a PvP'ers. Cool

Cheerios!

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.09.04 03:50:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Victoria Davion
Originally by: Belfelmalak
Edited by: Belfelmalak on 03/09/2010 03:45:24
I'm a little confused on a couple of points.
1. I see people pointing out that using an AB will just get you webbed. That may in fact be true, but in most suggested loadouts I've seen for BC's, much like the one above, Webs are not included.
2. Commen logic seems to demand the use of a MWD, but arn't those disabled by warp scramblers and disrupters? Almost any Pvp loadout will include one of those, so I don't see how a MWD would be of use.
One last thing, I know a Cain is a fearsome ship with just 6 autocannons, but I don't see any loadouts for a harbi which should be able to sport 7 of them. Is there something about the harbi that makes ac's not practicle?


In for a penny...

1) Using an afterburner won't get you webbed. Flying close enough to your opponent who's fitted a web will get you webbed. A web will mitigate the speed boost you get from your afterburner. Short-range battlecruisers will often fit webs, if they have the space to fit one.

That makes sense.

2) MWD's are only disabled by scramblers, not disruptors. Scramblers have a range roughly equivalent to webifiers, so if you get tangled by both in your MWDing PVP boat of doom you're likely in trouble. However, if you can keep outside web/scram range you can keep your speed up and try to mitigate some of the missile damage from your missile spamming opponent.

Thanks for that tidbit, I didn't really know what the differance was.

One last thing) Harbingers get a bonus to laz0rzs, hurricane gets a bonus to projectiles. That's why you don't see many harby's fitted with autocannons...





As the Harbi's bonus is lessoned cap use, and ac dont use cap at all, you are really not losing much by using ac's i would think. The fact that you can use 7 should more than make up for the Cains bonus, so Im still a little confused here, but thanks for your imput

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.04 14:32:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 04/09/2010 14:36:59
Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 04/09/2010 14:33:01
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib
Please, be civil. Obivously Roland and Bap are coming from the Carebear point of view. To them, it does not matter if they get the Kill AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT DIE themselves. This is why Roland is more interested in using Afterburners and Javelins from the start, even though using Javelins means that a speed penalty is incurred and the chances of the Drake catching the Hurricane are even more reduced (as if there were any chances of catching another ship with an Afterburner in the beginning, lol).


I was specifically responding to the OP's situation: a fight which is sure to happen, in which the Harbi will engage, and probably get into scram range (after all few people fly nano Harbis).
In scram range, AB is king. If you don't realize this, you're an idiot.
Then again, you instantly associated AB with "not dying" and "carebear", so you probably don't know what you're on about.
AB is actually there to kill. If I was MWD / Disrupt fitted, he would be able to GTFO at any moment. By being AB / scram fitted, I ensure that if he gets into scram range, he can't run, and will lose damage to tracking.

I of course, can't run either, because as soon as I get out of scram range, he still has a point on me, and he has an MWD while I have an AB. So AB is not a "surviving" mod, like you say it is.

As I said previously, the irony is splendid. At the same time, you call me a carebear for using an AB (because of course everyone knows the AB is a PvE mod while hardcore PvPers use an MWD Rolling Eyes), saying I won't catch anything with my AB, and at the same time you mock me for ganking idiots in high sec. If I gank idiots in high sec, I'm the one who needs to catch. Kingwood, the hardcore lo-sec real pvp man, doesn't need to catch, since in lo-sec he finds people who actually want to fight and will come to him, instead of ganking shuttles like I do.

Incidentally, since I do mostly gank ******s in high sec, I actually pretty much always fit MWDs to my ship, except for 1v1s that start at 0m range.

As for Javelins, you have the whole thing wrong. It all started when Kingwood the idiot decided that Drakes were kitable. To which I quickly told him that they could shoot out to point range and therefore weren't kitable. Of course, being the hardcore PvPer that you are (bent on killing, not on surviving Rolling Eyes), you wouldn't fit Javelins, you would overheat that MICROWARPDRIVE YEAH, AND KILL HIS ASS.
Kingwood then went on a cascade of fail saying that on top of trying to kite Drakes, he did so with faction ammo (cos 20km falloff means you hit well at 20km right).

Quote:
Bap1811 jumping to Roland's defense is understandable, they are obviously friends and friends stick up for each other.

I won't deny Bap is a friend, but you're making it sound like regardless of who is right, he just decided to agree with whatever I said and bash Kingwood. The reason he saw this thread is because he's my friend and I told him about it. The reason he posted what he posted is that he genuinely believes it, and happens to be 100% right.

Quote:
Roland is correct that a HAM-Drake can quite simply drive off a Hurricane if it loads Javelins from the start

That's not even the point. The point is, who the **** would be stupid enough to try and kite a Drake in a Hurricane.
Also, do you really think a Drake can catch a nano hurricane if it MANS UP AND PLAYS LIKE A PVPER INSTEAD OF LIKE A CAREBEAR, YEAH, HARDCORE? No. That's why you fit Javs instead of doing sthing stupid and losing your Drake.

Quote:
So, I think you all are correct, you're just coming from different viewpoints: A carebear's and a PvP'ers.


Originally by: Kingwood
Keep stating your fancy numbers while I'm playing the game.

I think this clearly shows that the viewpoints are not carebear and PvP, but reason and idiocy.

Jupacha
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.09.04 17:51:00 - [50]
 

This is one of the worst trolled and fail replied thread I have seen in a long time.

First off, a cane can kite 90% of Drake pilots out there.
Second: if cane lands in scram range of drake it usually goes bad for the cane. If the cane lands outside about 14km it goes bad for the drake.
Third: AB on a BC is not always a bad idea. You see this alot in high sec and with station games. Also, I use a AB on my drake and TD drones to kite turret BS and kill them.
Fourth: a drake with a photon II will almost always beat the crap out of even a LG Slaved harb if HAM fit.
Fifth: damage from javelins is not enough(usually) to kill a kiting cane before he finishes you off.

These are general rules that I have learn from over 500 kills in a drake. I have killed every BC and 5 of the 8 command ships, along with many HACs and recons, cruisers and interceptors and of course battleships in a drake.... solo.

For those who don't believe: http://bdeal-eve.info/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=34995 and my old toon http://bdeal-eve.info/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39179

The only BCs I fear in my HAM drake are a kiting cane/harb, HG Crystal Cyclone, and the 3x rep harb.

And for whoever thought they could catch a kiting shield cane in a 3x BCS 1x DC2 drake you are <insert derogatory comment here>.

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.04 18:03:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Jupacha
This is one of the worst trolled and fail replied thread I have seen in a long time.

True.

Quote:
First off, a cane can kite 90% of Drake pilots out there.

Agreed, which is why the only thing to do is use Javs.
Quote:
And for whoever thought they could catch a kiting shield cane in a 3x BCS 1x DC2 drake you are <insert derogatory comment here>.

This * 1000
Quote:
Third: AB on a BC is not always a bad idea. You see this alot in high sec and with station games. Also, I use a AB on my drake and TD drones to kite turret BS and kill them.

Yes, yes, yes, this.
Quote:
Fourth: a drake with a photon II will almost always beat the crap out of even a LG Slaved harb if HAM fit.

I think it's fair to assume omnitank.
Quote:
Second: if cane lands in scram range of drake it usually goes bad for the cane. If the cane lands outside about 14km it goes bad for the drake.
Fifth: damage from javelins is not enough(usually) to kill a kiting cane before he finishes you off.

I disagree.
About the first statement, since the proj boost (damage types + general damage), a brawler plate cane can outgank a HAM Drake. Depends on how much tackle the Drake fits, etc, but it's not 100% in the Drake's favor.
About nano canes:
Barrage at 20KM - 460 DPS give or take, 56K EHP vs kinetic
Drake with Javs - 460 DPS with all V and two BCU, 106K EHP vs Barrage damage

Even if you add 10 seconds for the loading of Javs, that's only 4-5K EHP. I'd say the Drake can easily drive the Cane off.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.05 12:33:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kingwood on 05/09/2010 13:01:20
Originally by: Roland Deschaines

I disagree.
About the first statement, since the proj boost (damage types + general damage), a brawler plate cane can outgank a HAM Drake. Depends on how much tackle the Drake fits, etc, but it's not 100% in the Drake's favor.
About nano canes:
Barrage at 20KM - 460 DPS give or take, 56K EHP vs kinetic
Drake with Javs - 460 DPS with all V and two BCU, 106K EHP vs Barrage damage

Even if you add 10 seconds for the loading of Javs, that's only 4-5K EHP. I'd say the Drake can easily drive the Cane off.


*snip* Keep this discussion civil. Shadow

Phased Plasma is the ammo to use since a lot of Drakes fit a Photon Scattering field. There's nothing "since the projectile changes" about it.

Why would I shoot barrage at a Drake? Eplosive and kinetic damage are the Drake's highest resists. Plus, if I do decide to go into brawling range I do not want to reload ammo (which the Drake will have to decide whether he wants to do if he switched to Javelins).

And according to you Vagas are invincible and Vagas, Canes or any other variety of fast ships never die to Drakes or Myrms (which are even slower). Got ya. Laughing

edit: Forgot the PP damage increase, but point still stands.

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.05 14:58:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 05/09/2010 14:59:54
Originally by: Kingwood
Phased Plasma is the ammo to use since a lot of Drakes fit a Photon Scattering field. There's nothing "since the projectile changes" about it.

I won't comment about your not knowing the proj changes since you edited later.
Most Drakes don't fit an EM resist. Check HAM Drake losses.

Quote:
Why would I shoot barrage at a Drake?

Why would you want to do more than 325 DPS? IDK, go figure. Anyway, that wasn't even the point. From the start, as soon as you mention the words Drake and Kiting together, you fail. The only point in doing so is asserting whether the Drake is failfit, killing it if it is, and GTFOing if it isn't. You won't kill a good HAM drake by kiting, or by your super kiting then going into brawl range tactic, period. inb4 you link a killmail attesting that you killed some fail pilot.

Quote:
And according to you Vagas are invincible and Vagas, Canes or any other variety of fast ships never die to Drakes or Myrms (which are even slower). Got ya. Laughing

Flown properly against a neutless / scramless ship (like most Drakes are fitted), yes.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2010.09.05 16:50:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 05/09/2010 14:59:54
Originally by: Kingwood
Phased Plasma is the ammo to use since a lot of Drakes fit a Photon Scattering field. There's nothing "since the projectile changes" about it.

I won't comment about your not knowing the proj changes since you edited later.
Most Drakes don't fit an EM resist. Check HAM Drake losses.

Quote:
Why would I shoot barrage at a Drake?

Why would you want to do more than 325 DPS? IDK, go figure. Anyway, that wasn't even the point. From the start, as soon as you mention the words Drake and Kiting together, you fail. The only point in doing so is asserting whether the Drake is failfit, killing it if it is, and GTFOing if it isn't. You won't kill a good HAM drake by kiting, or by your super kiting then going into brawl range tactic, period. inb4 you link a killmail attesting that you killed some fail pilot.

Quote:
And according to you Vagas are invincible and Vagas, Canes or any other variety of fast ships never die to Drakes or Myrms (which are even slower). Got ya. Laughing

Flown properly against a neutless / scramless ship (like most Drakes are fitted), yes.


Damage on the Drake at 22km will be about the same for either PP OR Barrage. Higher falloff for Barrage is countered by higher resists. No idea where you get your numbers from. Thus PP is preferred as you don't have to reload if you want to go into Brawling mode.

Second, HAM Drakes fit Scrams and Web. Or are we talking about HM Drakes now?

Third, HAM Drake switching to Javs means it's cutting it's Velocity from 1038 m/s to 725 m/s. If it actually wants to go for the kill it will not switch to Javs right away.

Fourth, where we're agreeing is that the outcome ofc depends on the pilots involved.

Fifth, you're relying on EFT numbers too much, and I'm also assuming you neither have Trajectory Analysis skilled to 5 nor Thermodynamics.

Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.05 17:46:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Roland Deschaines

Why would you want to do more than 325 DPS?


That's pretty funny arguement. I'd rather do 300 DPS vs 70k EHP on damage profile than 400 DPS vs 100k EHP on the other one(RF EMP vs Barrage as it stands on bog standard HAM Drake; also vs Barrage it has 1.5x the recharge tank compared to EMP...).

You're really just arguing different points. Yes, Hurri will not win by kiting against a competent pilot in a Drake(unless it's arties + gang member vs HAMs, then Drake's dead with Hurri almost untouched). On the other hand it's also pretty easy to pop 90% of Drakes in space by kiting them, since competent people are far and few around Laughing

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.05 17:48:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Kingwood
Damage on the Drake at 22km will be about the same for either PP OR Barrage. Higher falloff for Barrage is countered by higher resists. No idea where you get your numbers from.

I should've checked that, turns out you're right (faction EMP is marginally better - that is it takes about 10% less time to deal the equivalent of the Drake's EHP in damage - on a 2*invuln drake then Barrage, when at 20km - didn't bother checking with PP because most drakes use two invulns anyway).

The reason I didn't bother checking was this: you were talking about kiting a Drake, and doing it with the amazing 370 DPS of faction ammo at 20KM. At this point, regardless of which is better, using your own method of faction ammo kiting, it's clear that you will fail.
Any Drake will have both more tank than your Cane and more DPS than 370 (with Javs) and will thus drive you away, even counting the time it needs to change to Javs.

Quote:
Second, HAM Drakes fit Scrams and Web. Or are we talking about HM Drakes now?

Lots of Drakes fit disrupts. But that's not the point. As the other guy who posted a bit above said, you'd have to suck to get caught by a Drake.

Quote:
Third, HAM Drake switching to Javs means it's cutting it's Velocity from 1038 m/s to 725 m/s. If it actually wants to go for the kill it will not switch to Javs right away.

And any smart Drake pilot would do it because he'd know he can't catch you. 1038 m/s? That's ridiculous.

Quote:
Fourth, where we're agreeing is that the outcome ofc depends on the pilots involved.

You're changing what I said. What I said was "only a ****** would try and catch you in a Drake".

Quote:
Fifth, you're relying on EFT numbers too much, and I'm also assuming you neither have Trajectory Analysis skilled to 5 nor Thermodynamics.

Because EFT doesn't have overheating or all V skill profiles? What the hell are you on about? Also, are you actually claiming my char doesn't have overheating? Your loftiness is laughable, I can't believe you feel so leet just because you're in lo-sec.

As for my numers, I've obviously been using all V numbers for the numbers, not gonna use some random toon.

Thermodynamics makes it harder for nano ships to not get caught, that's granted, but a Drake will not catch a decent nano Cane.

Between easily driving you off with Javs and foolishly attempting to catch you, probably failing, and probably losing enough EHP in the process for you to eventually get the advantage, no decent Drake pilot will decide to try and catch you.

Roland Deschaines
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.09.05 17:50:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
That's pretty funny arguement. I'd rather do 300 DPS vs 70k EHP on damage profile than 400 DPS vs 100k EHP on the other one(RF EMP vs Barrage as it stands on bog standard HAM Drake; also vs Barrage it has 1.5x the recharge tank compared to EMP...).

I know, I screwed up, see my previous post. I'm still right about kiting being stupid anyway.

Quote:
Yes, Hurri will not win by kiting against a competent pilot in a Drake

This.

Quote:
On the other hand it's also pretty easy to pop 90% of Drakes in space by kiting them, since competent people are far and few around Laughing

I've been stating this from the start. "What you're doing will work if you face ******S". I think 90% is exaggerated, loading Javs when you see a 1.4K m/s or so Cane isn't that hard, but I may be mistaken.

Anyway, not much point theorycrafting is you rely on the other guy being a ******.

Bap1811
Posted - 2010.09.05 17:56:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Bap1811 on 05/09/2010 17:56:23
Originally by: Kingwood
Originally by: Roland Deschaines
Edited by: Roland Deschaines on 05/09/2010 14:59:54
Originally by: Kingwood
Phased Plasma is the ammo to use since a lot of Drakes fit a Photon Scattering field. There's nothing "since the projectile changes" about it.

I won't comment about your not knowing the proj changes since you edited later.
Most Drakes don't fit an EM resist. Check HAM Drake losses.

Quote:
Why would I shoot barrage at a Drake?

Why would you want to do more than 325 DPS? IDK, go figure. Anyway, that wasn't even the point. From the start, as soon as you mention the words Drake and Kiting together, you fail. The only point in doing so is asserting whether the Drake is failfit, killing it if it is, and GTFOing if it isn't. You won't kill a good HAM drake by kiting, or by your super kiting then going into brawl range tactic, period. inb4 you link a killmail attesting that you killed some fail pilot.

Quote:
And according to you Vagas are invincible and Vagas, Canes or any other variety of fast ships never die to Drakes or Myrms (which are even slower). Got ya. Laughing

Flown properly against a neutless / scramless ship (like most Drakes are fitted), yes.


Damage on the Drake at 22km will be about the same for either PP OR Barrage. Higher falloff for Barrage is countered by higher resists. No idea where you get your numbers from. Thus PP is preferred as you don't have to reload if you want to go into Brawling mode.

Second, HAM Drakes fit Scrams and Web. Or are we talking about HM Drakes now?

Third, HAM Drake switching to Javs means it's cutting it's Velocity from 1038 m/s to 725 m/s. If it actually wants to go for the kill it will not switch to Javs right away.

Fourth, where we're agreeing is that the outcome ofc depends on the pilots involved.

Fifth, you're relying on EFT numbers too much, and I'm also assuming you neither have Trajectory Analysis skilled to 5 nor Thermodynamics.

Ham drakes can fit both scram and disrupt seeing as the basic ham drake has an MWD, a scram isnt needed. You actually sometimes kite for quite a while with a disrupt+MWD against the like of the brutix. Seeing as it hits relably to 20km with normal ammo.

Good ham drake pilots can tell from the get-go he wont be able to catch you, your just relying on him not having T2 hams or being an idiot. He'll load them instantly as at that point his goal becomes to drive you off, as he know he cant catch you/hold you weather he has disrupt or scram.

Were theorizing assuming both pilots are decent and make the right choice.

Believe or not, Spreadsheets and calculations are a big part of eve PvP. Will that TD work when I orbit, etc.
I agree thats not all it is ofc, theres some skill required in maneuvering your ship, choosing between orbit/keep-at-range and everything related to micro-managing cap and range. But alot of things in Eve are math based, and saying the contrary would show you a very incompetent pilot.

Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.09.05 18:02:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Roland Deschaines

I've been stating this from the start. "What you're doing will work if you face ******S". I think 90% is exaggerated, loading Javs when you see a 1.4K m/s or so Cane isn't that hard, but I may be mistaken.

Anyway, not much point theorycrafting is you rely on the other guy being a ******.


Well, in practise it's less about 1v1s and then you often end up with wingmate you know against 2 random people. Now if they both act coherent, then it'd be GF and result in noone losing a ship. Then you have all kinds of people who go in all kinds of fits, warp at random distances from each other and find every other possible way to **** up Laughing So the theoretic 1v1 is pretty much the worst case, in game it happens relatively rarely, so I don't think there's a point in clashing over this.

I won't really bother checking all the Drake kills, but they're really VERY often suboptimal in one way or the other(fit, missiles loaded/carried, etc).

Btw, I'd not say it's that hard to catch a Hurri/Vaga in Drake, especially if guy's just orbiting/keeps range. Ok, granted, Vaga's much harder to nail, but still possible.

Agallis Zinthros
Amarr
Posted - 2010.09.05 18:22:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Helmh0ltz

450ish dps against you're 550ish dps

Most drake pilots suck, so if you're in a tech II fitted harby and you catch a lone drake pilot, just jump 'em and hope the fight goes well. Twisted Evil

Nah. My shield harb fit gets 700-ish DPS. Really you should abusing ECM drones in a 1va though, so your opponent will be having periods of 20 seconds where he can not lock.


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