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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.06 09:52:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Cap'n NoBeard
I forsee:
2-3 months of people orbiting a central structure at 3k/s killing everything and hardly having to turn on their tank because even the frigs have trouble getting into their weapon range.
This already happens. It's been going on for quite a while, go back at least as far as the speed rebalance in QR and really became fashionable when T3 arrived.

…and yet, no mission nerfs have come of it. Again, the notion that MWDs let you speed/range tank is somewhat flawed and relies on a huge number of conditions. You can already do that just fine (and in many cases better) with an AB.

Cap'n NoBeard
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2010.09.06 10:55:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Tippia
This already happens. It's been going on for quite a while.


No, what happens at the moment is that at considerable slot investment we can push builds like nano-canes to 1k/s with an afterburner, and tackle NPCs like spider drones can catch us up. That's a whole different ballgame to getting something sluggish like a battleship hull into the 2-3k/s range with a MWD.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.06 11:36:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Cap'n NoBeard
Originally by: Tippia
This already happens. It's been going on for quite a while.

No, what happens at the moment is that at considerable slot investment we can push builds like nano-canes to 1k/s with an afterburner, and tackle NPCs like spider drones can catch us up. That's a whole different ballgame to getting something sluggish like a battleship hull into the 2-3k/s range with a MWD.
Same thing. Getting a (non-mach) BS to go 3kps would also be a considerable slot investments, and would balance itself out that way.

Also, you don't need to go 1kps in a sub-BS ship to completely bamboozle the rats. Already at 4-500m/s, they're completely out of the picture and all you have to worry about is nuking webbing frigates — a very easy task with the kind of (attempted) orbiting patterns they get caught in at those speeds. This can be achieved with roughly zero concessions to your tank/gank.

My point is: MWDs won't really change anything since the supposed issues with them are already in the game. Many missions already allow for MWDs; speed tanking is already a very viable tactic; range tanking already exists in some form in just about every mission. None of this has apparently caused any problems so far, so allowing MWDs wholesale would only lead to more viable fits, more variety, and more active/engaged mission-running. All of these are good things.

If the missions needed changing, that need has existed for at least two years now and adding MWDs to the picture doesn't change the need, whichever it is.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2010.09.06 12:54:00 - [124]
 

It would be good if there was some kind of adaptive AI in the game - I don't mean ala Sleepers webbing you from 40km away rendering speed tanking completely impossible, but some kind of reaction logic in rats so that if they see they can't hit you, they move somewhere where they think they will.

I attended a Sansha live event yesterday and saw about 30 NPC battleships trying in vain to shoot a T3 (or something smaller, was hard to tell) impotently, never deviated from their attack path, never hitting, etc. It just looked dumb really, especially since as far as the game is concerned it draws the lasers as if they hit anyway.

On topic: NPCs have real problems with fast ships, enabling players to be even faster in all missions is going to change the paradigm tanking wise (AE4 Bonus room springs to mind, L5 missions, etc)

Tayonas
Posted - 2010.09.06 14:34:00 - [125]
 

Can someone please tell me what people are meaning when they are talking about mission runners using mwd being scanned down and locked easier? Also is this more to do with low/null sec.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.09.06 14:47:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 06/09/2010 14:49:06
Originally by: Tayonas
Can someone please tell me what people are meaning when they are talking about mission runners using mwd being scanned down and locked easier?
Active MWD → huge sig radius → higher signal strength when someone is probing for you (ie you're far easier to find), and lower lock-on time when they finally find you.

The latter is of a somewhat lower importance in highsec, but the ease of probing you out still applies.

Tayonas
Posted - 2010.09.06 15:05:00 - [127]
 

I see, thanks Tippia.


Isaac Apylon
Lobster Adoption Agency
Posted - 2010.09.06 20:17:00 - [128]
 

I, for one, am abso-frickin-lutely thrilled that I will now be able to throw a Mwd onto my mission ganker phoon all the time. Thanks CCP, you just made catching a bear far from the warp in point much, much easier.

Morar Santee
Posted - 2010.09.06 21:38:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Morar Santee on 06/09/2010 21:43:26
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Elsa Nietzsche

because from my standpoint, it just makes it easier/faster for pirates to A) scan down the mission runner and B) MWD to the mission runner to lock him/her down.



That would only be the case if you didn't run a MWD. MWD would allow you to a) use a travel fit that's more likely to survive lo/null sec gates/bubbles. b) allow you to quickly take a defensive position in your mission -push away from where you land.

If a pirate jumps your mission and your 70km away from the landing zone you should have ample time to a) warp out b) start shooting him.


These are actually good points on both sides guys, and highlight some new tactics that I don't think we considered yet. If you bring an AB only, you can get run down. It's not much of a change though, thinking it through. Taking an MWD gives you counter-tactics like Koloch suggests, and using an AB only becomes slightly more risky. Generally speaking, if you can be scanned down in your mission, you're in trouble whether you've got an MWD or not, and if you're risk-averse like some of us out there, once you're found you'll be kissing that mission goodbye anyways.


Sorry, but that is simply false. Allowing MWDs in mission deadspace will always benefit the attacker over the mission runner.

1. Round about 90% of PvP setups are geared towards functioning around a MWD. Mission setups, on the other hand, tend to be active tanked and need cap to do their job. MWDs only make that more difficult.
Even if you assume you could build different mission setups with MWDs, relying on range to tank, that brings us straight to the next point ->

2. In times of 10km/s Dramiels, it doesn't matter where in a mission you are. You are either aligned and notice him instantly as he warps in and live, or you are scrambled before your BS ever aligns. (Yes, that's right, even if you are 150km away from warp in, align time from 0m/s to warp-speed takes around 13 seconds on a BS. If it's moving in a different direction than you want to warp, it takes even longer. Dramiel needs 15 seconds tops to catch you. Good luck.)
In case you wonder why I chose battleships here: Every other ship, even sniper HACs, BCs or whatever have an effective range of 80km, so despite their lower align times, you are just as screwed, if not more. (Edit: Yes, that doesn't account for Tengus, but I heard rumours not everyone is using them. Yet.)

Mission deadspace not allowing MWDs is one of the best defenses mission-runners have:

- PvP setups usually use MWDs, they have to switch.
- If you get distance from the warp-in with an AB, you will be a fair distance away before you are probed down. Now they have to catch up using ABs themselves. That's 3km/s for a Dramiel.

I'd rather try to escape a ship doing 3km/s than a ship doing 10km/s. Whether my own ship can fit a MWD is completely irrelevant there.

And if you're looking at all the other incursions to missions, be it salvage theft, mission objective theft or whatever, it is all made three times easier as the frigates they'll be using will be three times as fast.

Sorry, the idea's simply not thought through, from my perspective.

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.09.06 22:10:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Cap'n NoBeard

I forsee:
2-3 months of people orbiting a central structure at 3k/s killing everything and hardly having to turn on their tank because even the frigs have trouble getting into their weapon range.
A big mission nerf patch.
1-2 months of people being ganked because all the NPCs are into optimal faster than their DPS/Tank can cope.
Some people quitting, other people changing their fits to pure tank, low dps with debate over weather or not you should fit a warp stab.


because the whole 4 slot tank + cap injector tank and spank isn't already efficient enough, lol who needs to speed tank anyways Rolling Eyes

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.09.06 22:13:00 - [131]
 

I don't think it will really make that much difference in the end.

Benefits:
1. There are a few potential benefits to ships that kite/snipe missions (Raven, Arty Mael, Rokh), but the reduced fitting versitality with a MWD means that they fit less tank in general. Snipers are generally slower at finishing missions anyway, so I don't really see an increased isk/hour with this.
2. The sentry Domi has the added of option now, of getting room aggro, dropping sentries and racing to the outside boundary of the mission room (usually around 250kms from its centre where the NPCs turn back), and just waiting till his sentries have killed everything.
3. There is also the added benefit of MWD ships being able to blitz missions where you have to go through several gates. However, in practice, there'll usually still be a room where they have to shoot something.
4. AFs and Inties will benfit a lot from this, inties more so, but that only applies to missions where the lack of DPS isn't that important.
5. Almost any BS will now be able to outrace NPC scramming/webbing frigates. Only spider drones will be unaffected.
6. Low level missioners will probably end up benefitting most from this.
7. Missions that come to mind as now being easier are Recon 1 and 2 (if you actually fight the NPcs, otherwise it was easy already to blitz them), AE bonus room, and WC room 1.
8. Losec mission runners now have a better GTFO ability, but in all honesty, if they weren't watching the gate and their scanner before they won't be doing it now and will be just as easy to catch for a covops/SB/recon.

I can't realy think of any downsides apart from the afore mentioned mission runners being easier to scan and smaller ships having bigger sigs, but NPCs have always been notoriously accurate in any case, even with ABs.

So, no, I don't think there's really a problem allowing MWDs that will unbalance the game enormously.

Impact1983
Merchants Exports
Rising Phoenix Syndicate
Posted - 2010.09.09 04:59:00 - [132]
 

I was redirected from SHC to here so I could post I will be happy when I can use my pvp ships in 0.0 missions. Granted it has been a few years from the last mission I have run but I am sure the red dots are still the same.


One small note, MWD will work for the interceptors that will tackle you for their friends.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2010.09.09 07:56:00 - [133]
 

If you want more low sec/0.0 mission runners the thing to do is not making them easier to catch by allowing MWDs in missions. Either you need to make them unprobable in all missions or you start by adding sleeper ai, so ganking a mission runner requires more than pointing him and doing some dps on another damage type/neuting him a bit..

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.09.09 12:03:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear




Quasa Umbral
Posted - 2010.09.09 12:05:00 - [135]
 

I like the idea of using MWD in missions. The power requirements are a good balance already for the module as well as your huge sig radius.

More than that, I like seeing CCP make well-thought out posts. Thx!

VC General
Caldari
No Baals Inc
Posted - 2010.09.09 15:21:00 - [136]
 

I don't see any real drawbacks to allowing MWD's in missions as they are now. It would shave a few minutes off of annoying missions with distant gates, but like the devs said, nano is dead for purposes of tanking. The power and cap requirements for a real tank along with a MWD are also difficult to meet at best. Because of those reasons, I can't see myself using one except for a few select missions, such as the aforementioned Recon. About the only thing imbalancing I can imagine coming of this would be long range high damage gunships, like beam Apocs and Paladins, simply fitting no tank, and MWD'ing away from the entire complex to snipe. Much like the few missions that will have shorter travel time because of this change, I don't see that being game breaking since there's only a couple of missions I've seen that would require a MWD instead of an AB for that particular tactic.

One thing to keep in mind as well is that judging such a change by the fear of speed tanking makes little sense. You're always going to have obsessed people with uber implants and officer mods in every slot trying to turn something into an ISK faucet. Even if someone managed to fit an insanely expensive ship that can obliterate missions while speed tanking, I don't see how that's terribly different than the same guy who probably runs missions right now with a ship that just sits still with a 2k+ tank and DPS.

One last thing. MWD in deadspace will not lure anyone into low sec to do missions. The problem with low sec is that people are cowards. I would say just increase the pay, LP's, or bounties of low sec missions every patch until you see mission runners start to flock there, but that won't work. They tried the same thing in Ultima Online, and the vast majority of players still figured it was better to make less money in carebear land rather than having PvP interrupt their gold farming. At best, you'll just have pirate corps getting filthy rich if they control a system with good agents.

Gavin Miner
Posted - 2010.09.09 16:39:00 - [137]
 

since you mentioned Recon I would like to point out MWD will NOT require much change to that mission series.

it might at first seem like a MWD will make the mission 'easier' or faster, but in reality its not going to change the level 4 version more then a few seconds in completion time, for an experienced mission runner.

Recon 1/3 I believe everyone does the same on this mission, fit a light frigate with nano2s and a high meta or faction AB, a vigil is my own choice, it moves at 1500M/s roughly and gets though this mission before the cruisers can lock me and even START firing. if I fit a MWD... I think I'll hit the gate about the same time to be honost unless I move up to an interceptor. which would change mision completion time by less then a minute total.

Recon 2/3 again the vigil comes out fo this mission, same end result, I've finished the mission before anything can lock me, except the frigates who are too far away to shoot still. warp out at 100% shields and turn in.

Recon 3/3 the stabber is kept around just for this, LSE2s big AB just a huge shield tank, run to gate, warp, I'm in the cloud less then a minute far less time then I'm in warp to get to the mission on average. a MWD might reduce my damage from the cloud a little but total completion time is going to change by less then 10% because on ALL of these most of the mission time isn't IN the mission, its warping to the system/location in system of the mission.

alternative run is just to bring my vargur. having a MWD wont' change anything since with an AB I've LONG since gotten to the gates before the last of the 1/3 spawns happen, and on 2 I never bother using anything except the vigil.

TL:DR version. mission blitzers already finish these so fast that MWDs won't change the speed they complete them any reasonable amount and people bounty hunting missions already make the gates long before they finish the last of the ships.

Zen Shenron
Gallente
Capsul Corp
Posted - 2010.09.09 19:33:00 - [138]
 

I like the idea and cannot wait until they implement it. I mostly run level 4 missions with my blaster fit Hyperion. It usually takes me forever to get into effective range with an AB, but when I am able to I fit a MWD. It really helps get into range faster with a quick cycle or 2 of the MWD, you just have to be a bit more diligent with you're cap management.

Jedak K'ral
Posted - 2010.09.09 21:18:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Zen Shenron
I mostly run level 4 missions with my blaster fit Hyperion.


That is a level of masochism i'll never understand.

ZiggyXX
Posted - 2010.09.09 23:18:00 - [140]
 

I wholeheartedly approve of this change on behalf of the Minmatar people.

Goose99
Posted - 2010.09.15 18:02:00 - [141]
 

Allow mwding pvp fits to burn from gate to missioner and get the tackle so fast the carebear don't have time to warp off. Some idea this is.

From mission site scanning to load balancing for extra gatecamp-running and now this. Lowsec missioning is already dead enough as is, why not put one last nail in the coffin?Rolling Eyes

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2010.09.15 19:52:00 - [142]
 

I can't see it affecting the actual missions much, but I do agree that there may be issues regarding the mission-runner being.. lets call it pestered.. by ninjas/pvpers.

I'm not against this change though, anything to narrow the pvp/pve fitting gap is a good thing(tm). Fewer, more potent NPCs in missions next, please.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.15 20:50:00 - [143]
 

The MWD in missions would effect rushing LP. Right now you can make more money rushing LP than you can mining, which is ridiculous. The last nerf to mission loot was to buff the mineral market and make mining viable again, which failed. If you allow MWD's in missions it will further expand that gap.

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.09.15 21:07:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
The MWD in missions would effect rushing LP. Right now you can make more money rushing LP than you can mining, which is ridiculous. The last nerf to mission loot was to buff the mineral market and make mining viable again, which failed. If you allow MWD's in missions it will further expand that gap.
You're ******ed. If you want to loot wrecks mwd in deadspace wont do anything to mining profits. BM wreck turn in mission and come back...mwd works.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.09.15 21:19:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Psychotic Maniac
Originally by: Cipher Jones
The MWD in missions would effect rushing LP. Right now you can make more money rushing LP than you can mining, which is ridiculous. The last nerf to mission loot was to buff the mineral market and make mining viable again, which failed. If you allow MWD's in missions it will further expand that gap.
You're ******ed. If you want to loot wrecks mwd in deadspace wont do anything to mining profits. BM wreck turn in mission and come back...mwd works.



First learn to read.
Then learn to comprehend.
Then learn to troll.
Then come back and at least make a solid attempt.

It has nothing to do with looting whatsoever. It has to so with rushing missions for LP and the amount of ISK that can be generated from it, furthering an existing imbalance.


Reikenji Saito
Gallente
Tironci Culvarin Inc.
Posted - 2010.09.16 12:02:00 - [146]
 

I agree, I like the idea of more fitting options. +1

I wonder if Halo implant prices will rise with the proposed change?


Rei

Cantina Pinata
Posted - 2010.09.21 14:41:00 - [147]
 

In short, please remove all fitting/hull limitations from EVE.

Also, add sleeper AI, sleepertank, -damage and -reward to missions while you are at it. Rats are so lightweight that faction fitting your ship is mostly lol.

xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2010.09.26 13:20:00 - [148]
 

We DON'T need MWD on missions, coz deadspace must remain dead :)

BTW in some missions you can use MWD IF it is NOT deadspace

Mo0seluffer
Posted - 2010.09.26 14:41:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Mo0seluffer on 26/09/2010 14:42:19
Mission NPC's need sleeper AI not MWD.Why one may ask?Ive seen some people go afk and just let drones do all the work,Others just get a tanked ship to fly in and take room aggro,Then the dps ship/s come in and have free reign over the area.Missions are extremely easy compared to years ago due to the prehistoric AI and average player SP.

Sleepers are the real eve.No more afk,No more one ship tank.Everyone has to worry,Everyone has to tank.Eve is an mmo.But most missions,Even lvl 5's are soloable.Make eve interesting again.Make it take a team to complete missions,Or at least make people pay attention.I dont run missions anymore because it makes me wanna go to sleep due to the sheer lack of excitement.But gimme a good WH with 20+ sigs and im in it for the long haul.No matter if its a c1 or a c3.Even though all of them are soloable it takes an enormous amount of time to do so by ones self.

Mavnas
Posted - 2010.11.29 20:46:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Elsa Nietzsche

because from my standpoint, it just makes it easier/faster for pirates to A) scan down the mission runner and B) MWD to the mission runner to lock him/her down.



That would only be the case if you didn't run a MWD. MWD would allow you to a) use a travel fit that's more likely to survive lo/null sec gates/bubbles. b) allow you to quickly take a defensive position in your mission -push away from where you land.

If a pirate jumps your mission and your 70km away from the landing zone you should have ample time to a) warp out b) start shooting him.


Actually, this makes it much riskier. Before if you had an AB and your ganker had a MWD, you'd have the speed advantage inside the mission deadspace. Now he's the same speed as you if you have a MWD and faster than you if you're still using an AB.


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