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Mercie Orion
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:15:00 - [1]
 

I'm sure it's possible, especially in say a C2 hole, but I have some (maybe noob) questions about it...

Ok so just for example's sake, lets say I've found a C2 that doesn't have any effects, and doesn't already have someone living in it.

What is the estimated cost, to set up a basic POS with the hangers and whatever else is needed? I'm assuming it'll be a small POS since it's for solo op's.

How much would it cost per day (roughly) for the fuel for a POS if I were to purchase it and bring it in from a high sec WH entrance? (this is assuming that the planets aren't right to make my own etc etc.)

What kind of hourly isk can be made from a C2 ? The reason I ask is because I have to compare this against what it would cost to fuel the POS, as I'm not extremely hardcore, If the ratio doesn't add up then I'll be wasting my time.

Sorry for all the noob questions but this is something that has caught my attention and I would really like to give it a go, just trying to get some insight before I dive A-hole deep into it.

Thanks

Science Tramp
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:32:00 - [2]
 

Don't use a small pos as a primary staging point in a WH, ever. You would be better of having an alt in a cloaky orca serve as your main staging hub. The problem with smalls is that they are way to easy to reinforce/kill.

If you are still keen on the POS idea, have a look at one of the POS planners, either the online or the one included in EveHQ, that will give you an idea of how much fuel you'll need.

In terms of payouts, assuming moderate ribbon salvage, you are looking at around 35ish mil per combat site.

Simon Sei
Posted - 2010.08.26 19:48:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Simon Sei on 26/08/2010 19:48:58
Go Large POS or don't do it.

ISK streams - Combat is very dependent on drops of Meleted Nanoribbons. Could be high if your drop rate is good, and could be very low.

PI - Depending on planets and how much time you want to put in, it could generate a decent amount.

Mining - Don't. Okay you will have access to ABC roids which will provide good isk. Stick to a Covetor not a Hulk for lower risk when (not if) you lose a ship. Problem here is hauling ore back to empire to refine at 100% sucks, and refining in the Wormhole is an instant 25% loss, so you are not high enough over high sec mining to justify the POS.

Gas Mining - Don't bother

Radar and Mag sites are not really valuable either.

Overall a Large will probably (and hard to tell right now with fuel prices all over the board) run about 10-25M a day to run (300-500M a month).

A Class 2 hole is soloable.

Overall I think you would have no problem covering the costs, its covering the costs and making the same rate as you could doing ohter things that is questionable. Also, if you are not ready to spend 15-20 minutes a day scanning for stuff to do, don't move to w-space.


Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.26 20:37:00 - [4]
 

Don't listen to them, a small POS will be perfectly fine.
Sure, in theory a small POS is very easy to take down, but in practice you need to be really bored to justify doing it when the reward is that small.

Just make sure you have at least a day's worth of strong and fit a couple of hardeners and some ecm, that will make most sane persons stay away.

This along with the fact that wh-space is pretty empty most of the time means the chance of you losing the POS is small.

Originally by: Simon Sei
Overall a Large will probably (and hard to tell right now with fuel prices all over the board) run about 10-25M a day to run (300-500M a month).

500M a month? Where do you get your fuel?
At the moment, fuel for a large POS costs around 250m per month (lowest sell orders in Jita), which means the daily cost of a small pos is around 2m.

And as said above, go for the combat sites and PI, the rest isn't worth it.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.08.26 21:15:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Induc
Don't listen to them, a small POS will be perfectly fine.
Sure, in theory a small POS is very easy to take down, but in practice you need to be really bored to justify doing it when the reward is that small.




We have pounded multiply small poses just because we were bored.

Just a though.


Brock Nelson
Posted - 2010.08.27 00:08:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Science Tramp
In terms of payouts, assuming moderate ribbon salvage, you are looking at around 35ish mil per combat site.


In a C2? You're joking right?

Trinkets friend
Posted - 2010.08.27 05:08:00 - [7]
 

Don't solo run a POS. Seriously. If you go on holiday for 2 weeks, it runs out of fuel, and all your candy gets taken.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.08.27 07:45:00 - [8]
 

I would offer another point of view: If you are solo or just with a few friends, bring in a small POS. Don't even put guns on it. If it gets attacked, just leave it. You will lose close to nothing, the cost of the tower itself will be offset from doing two or three sites. Solo, you aren't going to defend anything against a dedicated attack anyway, might as well lose as little as you can. And especially C1/C2 wormholes aren't raided THAT much.

Back when deep safe spots were in game, I just made one in a WH about 300 AU from the sun, anchored three giant cans there, and brought in a probing ship, a salvaging ship and my battlecruiser, left them all ther in space, and lived like that for a few days until a good exit opened. I came back some 300M richer.

Wolfcheck
The Ice Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.27 08:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Solo, you aren't going to defend anything against a dedicated attack anyway, might as well lose as little as you can. And especially C1/C2 wormholes aren't raided THAT much.


I'd still use an orca for exactly this reason. If you aren't doing manufacturing in the WH, there's nothing you can do in a pos that you can't do in an orca, afaik. And that is easier to defend/move out of the way.

heheheh
Phoenix Club
Posted - 2010.08.27 11:08:00 - [10]
 

A small throwaway pos is the best bet, basically a place to keeps stuff with a bit of protection, just use a bare minimum of fittings.
Theres not many people about that will bring in a few BS to pop a small POS for the sake of it and even if they do you have not lost a great deal, wheras is you loose an orca with everything in it you loose alot more, plus your in a WH where people get around by probing and it doesnt take long to find an orca at a safespot.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.08.27 11:48:00 - [11]
 

You can't do the Orca thing with a single character, you need either a second account or at least a second character. The latter adds even more trouble with switching ships. Training for an Orca also takes many times longer than training Anchoring to put up a small tower.

Arguably, if you already have a second account that can fly an Orca, go for it.

Simon Sei
Posted - 2010.08.27 12:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Induc
Originally by: Simon Sei
Overall a Large will probably (and hard to tell right now with fuel prices all over the board) run about 10-25M a day to run (300-500M a month).

500M a month? Where do you get your fuel?
At the moment, fuel for a large POS costs around 250m per month (lowest sell orders in Jita), which means the daily cost of a small pos is around 2m.



Last Time I bought Coolant it was almost 18,000 per, see now that it is 11,000. And I would always rather guess high with the state of PI stuff ATM then budget 250M and see something shoot up in cost.

As for the small throw away Small POS, I am not saying it is not doable, but don't leave much in it. And It will be very hard to get a lot around it to discourage attack.

I also reiterate the warning against solo in W-space. Why not just join a WH corp, there are plenty out there that could show you what W-Space is like, without the need to take on the burden of a POS setup.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.08.27 15:09:00 - [13]
 

Orca works. Been there. Done that.

You can also toss a small tower and a few days of fuel into it.


Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.27 15:52:00 - [14]
 

Orca requires more money upfront where as tower requires more over time.

So it really depends if you want to use the orca for its primary use or just a massive can.

If all you want is a storage then go for a pos but if you plan to use the orca in mining gangs and stuff then go for the orca.

P.S Orca costs 310mil for hull plus 50mil in skills and also for modules and rigs an additional 50-75mil a Medium pos will set you bac around 80-100mil with fuel costing around 100mil a month. Remember you can possibly farm the fuel in the w-space so that figure can drop.

Nhi'Sidaris
Posted - 2010.08.27 17:09:00 - [15]
 

I think Halborn put it best, really. Do you want to pay up front or amortize your costs? If the later than realize that a POS will cost you more money over time, whereas an Orca is a straight up investment but no operating cost (aside from insurance and any pew pew that you get nailed on).


Induc
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.27 23:31:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Induc on 27/08/2010 23:33:49
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2

We have pounded multiply small poses just because we were bored.

Just a though.

Still, the chance that a small to medium gang visits your wh is small, especially if you don't scan up your statics. And the chance that the small gang is actually going to bother to reinforce your small POS is just as small. Finally the chance that the gang will leave a scout to get back and finish it off the next day is even smaller.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just think you shouldn't be too paranoid about it.

Captain Torgo
The Geedunk Expedition
Posted - 2010.08.27 23:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Captain Torgo on 27/08/2010 23:42:57
Originally by: Mercie Orion
I'm sure it's possible, especially in say a C2 hole, but I have some (maybe noob) questions about it...

Ok so just for example's sake, lets say I've found a C2 that doesn't have any effects, and doesn't already have someone living in it.

What is the estimated cost, to set up a basic POS with the hangers and whatever else is needed? I'm assuming it'll be a small POS since it's for solo op's.

How much would it cost per day (roughly) for the fuel for a POS if I were to purchase it and bring it in from a high sec WH entrance? (this is assuming that the planets aren't right to make my own etc etc.)

What kind of hourly isk can be made from a C2 ? The reason I ask is because I have to compare this against what it would cost to fuel the POS, as I'm not extremely hardcore, If the ratio doesn't add up then I'll be wasting my time.

Sorry for all the noob questions but this is something that has caught my attention and I would really like to give it a go, just trying to get some insight before I dive A-hole deep into it.

Thanks
Currently I'm running a small Amarr POS and the fuel costs are just barely over 100 million isk per month (101,532,290 to be exact). I've got six guns, two warp disruptors, two webbers, two corp hangers, and one ship maintenance array.

Quite a few people here have stated to never bother with small POS's, but I think it's worth it. I rarely if ever see another soul in the WH. Someone would have to have a mighty strong grudge to first locate, then muster enough people to destroy my tower. The chances of this happening are very slim since the entrance changes every day and the few who do actually enter are random passer-by's.

My personal opinion: If someone is willing to make the effort and go through all that time and trouble just to destroy my little 300mil POS setup, they've earned it.

Hourly isk is difficult to judge. If you're just hitting the sites and anomalies, the isk/hour can rise and drop dramatically. It's random. However if you're running planetary interaction in there as well, it helps increase and steady out the income.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.08.28 11:19:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 28/08/2010 11:20:11
I wouldn't put sleeper loot in the CHA, if they reinforce the tower you can no longer take it out. Get an industrial ship instead (or anything else with a large cargohold), park it inside the forcefield and shove all the loot into it. That way, even if the tower gets reinforced, you have a chance to haul it out. Note that this is assuming solo work, and therefore no trust issues with the loot or forcefield passwords. Yes, the attackers can bubble you or the exit wormhole for 24 hours straight, but if they go that far it's probably not about the loot anymore.

Edit: Fit a cloak to the industrial (doesn't need to be covops), warp it to a safespot, cloak, wait for enemies to leave.

WaringAndWhoring
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.08.29 04:49:00 - [19]
 

I recommend not living in one unless you have a few friends to split the costs on a large pos. Your better off searching for wormholes with either no one home or one with a pos but no activity and if you find one with those criteria throw some probes out and see if there is a radar or archeology site there. They drop high amounts of nanoribbons last Class 2 radar site I did I was able to pull 21 nanoribbons from the wrecks. I don't really bother with anomalies anymore.

Honestly I don't like WH life, its like being in a prison and you farm all the sites out in a day or two anyway. After that point you prey for a new WH to spawn with stuff in it or spend days mining a grav site and maybe once in a blue moon you get some pvp action. After 2 weeks I want to self destruct to end my misery. I've only lived in class 1 and 2 though so maybe they get more fun in the higher class ones. I hate WH's to cuz i'm gallente and sleepers love to agro drones and that makes up a good 1/3 of my dps. I've been cross training a bit to avoid using drones.

Deathvoucher
Easy Co.
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.08.29 15:31:00 - [20]
 

heres why a small works

How many BS's can you get into a C2 WH before it collapse? not a whole lot

if the enemy uses a stealthbomber gang, just make sure you have webs and small guns in groups around the pos, and have a toon that can man the guns (it takes just over a week on an alt and can be done on your mains account)

i recommend small pos to start and since isk is easy in a WH, upgrade yourself later when neccesary

Baghtar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.08.30 14:05:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Deathvoucher
heres why a small works

How many BS's can you get into a C2 WH before it collapse? not a whole lot

if the enemy uses a stealthbomber gang, just make sure you have webs and small guns in groups around the pos, and have a toon that can man the guns (it takes just over a week on an alt and can be done on your mains account)

i recommend small pos to start and since isk is easy in a WH, upgrade yourself later when neccesary
Ah small pos would easily be taken down by a Hac or bc gang with a couple of logis though.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2010.08.30 14:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Deathvoucher
heres why a small works

How many BS's can you get into a C2 WH before it collapse? not a whole lot

if the enemy uses a stealthbomber gang, just make sure you have webs and small guns in groups around the pos, and have a toon that can man the guns (it takes just over a week on an alt and can be done on your mains account)

i recommend small pos to start and since isk is easy in a WH, upgrade yourself later when neccesary


Although there are plenty of reasons to use a small POS in wormhole space - when your knowledge and objectives dictate it's use, your typical C2 wh can easily accomodate 15-18 BS before it goes poof. We have easily sieged small POS'es with that number of BS in the past. They are too easy to kill.

Hunting camp - sure. Strategic kill of a logoffsky also good (your opponent simply loads up his orca and logs of? Not a problem - kill and clean up the current tower - put your own small tower in place with scram, web and guns, and a bit of fuel. Wait until the kill mail shoes up in the corp kill list).

Living tower? not so much. Too flimsy. Medium is the recommended minimum.

Olga Chukarin
Posted - 2010.08.30 20:21:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Nhi'Sidaris
I think Halborn put it best, really. Do you want to pay up front or amortize your costs? If the later than realize that a POS will cost you more money over time, whereas an Orca is a straight up investment but no operating cost (aside from insurance and any pew pew that you get nailed on).




The pos costs 100m/month in feul (using the guy above's figures)
The orca costs 300m/month in plexes (for an alt to fly it)

Orcas runnings costs therefore are 3 times greater than a small pos

Captain Torgo
The Geedunk Expedition
Posted - 2010.08.30 21:12:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Captain Torgo on 30/08/2010 21:12:41
My small tower, which is fitted with 16 ECM mods, is such a pain to mess with that most never bother.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2010.08.30 21:14:00 - [25]
 

Right and how is he suppose to bring a POS with all the gear to a WH? in a badger? LOL

Originally by: Olga Chukarin


The pos costs 100m/month in feul (using the guy above's figures)
The orca costs 300m/month in plexes (for an alt to fly it)

Orcas runnings costs therefore are 3 times greater than a small pos

Jax Squat
Posted - 2010.08.31 02:43:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Jax Squat on 31/08/2010 02:43:16
nm

Tierius Fro
Posted - 2010.08.31 02:45:00 - [27]
 

I have been living solo in a C1 WH for about 6 weeks now. Two characters. Can't say for sure how much I have made, have yet to sell it all. What I have sold is about 1.4 billion.

Large Caldari tower. I have hauled in about 700 million in fuel, which on paper was about 200 days. Plenty left.

I do research, copying and invention, that pretty much pays for fuel right there. I work all the sites. Refine the ore, and react the gas. I mine while I do PI. Fill 3 cans while resetting extractors. Static exit to low sec, which I routinely explore. Offers a nice variety.

The downside is the spawn rate stinks because no one is farming the other WH's in my constellation. (so, move in next door!) But the daily change in a low sec exit makes up for it, as I enjoy low sec exploration. I get an occasional exit to another WH, sometimes high sec, and rarely to 0.0.

Raid'En
Posted - 2010.08.31 04:24:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 31/08/2010 04:26:52
Edited by: Raid''En on 31/08/2010 04:25:55

if you're alone i would recommand something else ;

don't live on WH, leave on HS, and probe everyday for WH.
and when you find one, look if there's sites and activity.
if it seems safe and there's some sites, then do it, clean all, get out, probe another one.
no cost for living here.
of course risk of getting killed on your combat ship will be bigger.

if you really want to live alone, then at least put an alt inside, for safety reason, if you forgot to get back in and that the wh collapse, you would be glad having one inside.

i don't recommand an orca at all, would be way too dangerous if someone see it.
and be sure that pirate don't care waiting hours cloaked to see you moving it.
and it can be a pain, having to have the 2nd account stucked with it (and if you don't have one well don't even try doing this with only 1 account)

for pos ;
take a small without anything on it, like some said ; if attacked you fled. end.
or put a large with lots of defense.
something on the middle have no interest ; you put little money and leave it if problem, or you put a lot to look strong, and will protect it.

no faction stuff, no reaction, no labs. those things will be a reason for people to attack you, so don't have any.

also kill by yourself all the sleepers if you have an exit open, the less alive sleepers, the less chance visitors will come inside.

ps : on the other hand, like the guy before me, you can try a C1 alone with a small pos. i had a small for 1 month without any problem some time ago.
as no BS can enter, and the potential profit of system is very low, risk are really low.
but this don't work on C2, even if the really dangerous thing you will see are pirates. lots of them. C2 are a pirate heaven.

Miskoranda
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2010.08.31 05:07:00 - [29]
 

How many BS's can you get into a C2 to siege a POS?

We managed 38.

Sure, you can't leroy more than about 20-25 through at once, but all wormholes have a static (apart from one I found recently) so if people are determined, they can get ships in once the static collapses. Yes, even via a nullsec static.

C1's make this considerably harder, but don't forget that T3 cruisers are cruiser mass, some of which have BS-sized tanks. You can bring enough T3's in to effetively siege a POS. You can also bring in logistic cruisers.

The absolute worst static to have is a D845 in a C3 because it has huge mass, regenerates that mass, and is a highsec connection.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.08.31 13:23:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Miskoranda
but all wormholes have a static (apart from one I found recently)


I'd be very interested in hearing which wormhole you are talking about.


 

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