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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2010.08.24 18:36:00 - [1]
 

Tyrannis 1.0.4 brought us Stackless Python 2.7. porkbelly gives us the lowdown in his newest dev blog.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.08.24 18:44:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ix Forres on 24/08/2010 19:11:33
So, Python. Okay. Knew that.

Anything else to add?

I like dev blogs, but only when they have content.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:06:00 - [3]
 

Having trouble keeping up with all new blogs! \o/ loving it! Keep up the great work.

/c

Dalmont Delantee
Gallente
Shiloh Technologies
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:08:00 - [4]
 


He's a coder, they don't speak human much :P

But, what benefits to reducing lag, increasing features etc does the new upgrade give?

SheriffFruitfly
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:14:00 - [5]
 

Let us know when this client patch comes, so we can get a 30 day skill running. :P

CCP Atlas

Posted - 2010.08.24 19:16:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
Let us know when this client patch comes, so we can get a 30 day skill running. :P

This was released on August 18th.

Yusitpeo Meoir
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:30:00 - [7]
 

Quote:
Visual Basic 6 is the last of a line. There are no plans to continue with a Visual Basic 7 version. All Visual Basic development is now focused on the .NET version of Visual Basic. But we won't be going there any time soon. Moving from version 6 to .NET is a much bigger leap: There are widespread incompatibilities on the API level and there are substantial language changes too. And at this time there appears to be no immediate benefit to us in switching.
I concur, .NET sucks a lot.

Oh, wait, that's not what we're talking about.

You do know that staying in the past will... leave you in the past?

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:30:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
Let us know when this client patch comes, so we can get a 30 day skill running. :P

This was released on August 18th.


*dramatic music* Shocked


(oh and good job)

Ancy Denaries
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:30:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Atlas
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly
Let us know when this client patch comes, so we can get a 30 day skill running. :P

This was released on August 18th.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is defined as "getting owned".

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2010.08.24 19:39:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ix Forres
Edited by: Ix Forres on 24/08/2010 19:11:33
So, Python. Okay. Knew that.

Anything else to add?

I like dev blogs, but only when they have content.
I'd like to echo this sentiment -- This blog has very little added value. Neutral

Only thing to take away from it, is that CCP won't be switching to Python 3.x any time Soon™.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.24 20:00:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: Ix Forres
Edited by: Ix Forres on 24/08/2010 19:11:33
So, Python. Okay. Knew that.

Anything else to add?

I like dev blogs, but only when they have content.
I'd like to echo this sentiment -- This blog has very little added value. Neutral

Only thing to take away from it, is that CCP won't be switching to Python 3.x any time Soon™.

To be clearer. This is an improvement to our engineering infrastructure, it does have performance improvements we can capitalize on and it is already deployed without the world ending. Literally.

It also references an obscure Icelandic band. I don't know what that was about but porkbelly does stuff like that.

Regarding 3.X, going through that amount of work to upgrade without it giving us considerable performance increases (like when you'd compare to new initiatives like Iron Python and such) or more direct benefits (can become sentient), it doesn't look like it's worth it.

Hope this helps.

Thumbs McFriday
Posted - 2010.08.24 20:04:00 - [12]
 

Wow! The true cause of all the lag has finally been revealed. All that folksy slow paced Randver has given birth to the unstoppable lag monster. Quick some one give me an address and I'll send CCP all my roommate's Dragon Force CD's. I'll never have to hear Through Fire and Flames again and Eve will be saved. Everyone wins!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.08.24 20:09:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/08/2010 20:09:46
You mentioned that you're moving to Python 2.7 because of new library features... which ones interest you? Do you guys keep abreast of the bug fixes/performance improvements in the 2.7 line? Subscribe to python dev? Consider trying to steal Guido from Google? Twisted Evil

It's actually funny, but before I started playing Eve I was a heavy contributor to the Python core project. Laughing

-Liang

Ed: Also, the pwn up above is pretty hilarious. Nicely done!

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.24 20:16:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:16:13
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:15:59
Originally by: Thumbs McFriday
Wow! The true cause of all the lag has finally been revealed. All that folksy slow paced Randver has given birth to the unstoppable lag monster. Quick some one give me an address and I'll send CCP all my roommate's Dragon Force CD's. I'll never have to hear Through Fire and Flames again and Eve will be saved. Everyone wins!


I would have expected something more akin to gabber or jumpstyle if we just wanted to bring up the pace, although I feel dubstep is probably closer to the consistent pace we want to be at without feeling tortured and distorted. I also happen to like dubstep.

Marchocias
Posted - 2010.08.24 21:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur

I would have expected something more akin to gabber or jumpstyle if we just wanted to bring up the pace, although I feel dubstep is probably closer to the consistent pace we want to be at without feeling tortured and distorted. I also happen to like dubstep.


Any chance we could get a decent bounty hunting system developed to the dulcit tones of some drillcore?

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2010.08.24 22:26:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
I also happen to like dubstep.


Ye gods, it's worse than we thought!


Seriously though, always good to hear sensible tech moves. Out of curiosity, is any manpower being spent on a JIT compiler for Stackless? I've heard talk thrown around here and there.

Shamblingform
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.24 22:35:00 - [17]
 

Easily first page again... ughYARRRR!!SurprisedSurprisedSurprisedShockedShockedShockedVery HappyVery HappySmile

German Giggles
R

Jacob Stirling
Gallente
Eve Dragons
Chaos Hegemony
Posted - 2010.08.24 22:54:00 - [18]
 

Newbie trainee at current day programming has request for clarification:

"There is a lot of C code that needs recompiling."

C or C++?

I ask because from what I've read, C++ is the industry standard and that's what I'm focusing on. C#, as I understand it, is better suited for porting to consoles. But C++ is the computer standard, though, of course, others are used. But I would have thought standard C would be considered ancient by now.

Thought I might look at Python as well.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.08.24 23:12:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
It's actually funny, but before I started playing Eve I was a heavy contributor to the Python core project.


So...you're to blame for the bugs ? Shocked

Kaksakamasami
Posted - 2010.08.24 23:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stirling
Newbie trainee at current day programming has request for clarification:

"There is a lot of C code that needs recompiling."

C or C++?

I ask because from what I've read, C++ is the industry standard and that's what I'm focusing on. C#, as I understand it, is better suited for porting to consoles. But C++ is the computer standard, though, of course, others are used. But I would have thought standard C would be considered ancient by now.

Thought I might look at Python as well.


C is essentially subset of C++. It's really just C++ without all the cool and complicated stuff. You really can't learn C++ without accidentally learning C.

Oh, and C is used in ****load of places where you need raw performance without all this fancy stuff C++ brings.

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Posted - 2010.08.25 00:00:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:16:13
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:15:59
Originally by: Thumbs McFriday
Wow! The true cause of all the lag has finally been revealed. All that folksy slow paced Randver has given birth to the unstoppable lag monster. Quick some one give me an address and I'll send CCP all my roommate's Dragon Force CD's. I'll never have to hear Through Fire and Flames again and Eve will be saved. Everyone wins!


I would have expected something more akin to gabber or jumpstyle if we just wanted to bring up the pace, although I feel dubstep is probably closer to the consistent pace we want to be at without feeling tortured and distorted. I also happen to like dubstep.


CCP Dude likes Dubstep? Good man! Finally some REAL music ;-)
Nothing like a bit of "WUBBB WUBBBB WUUUUBBBB" whislt pvping (-_o)

Thumbs McFriday
Posted - 2010.08.25 00:07:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur

I would have expected something more akin to gabber or jumpstyle if we just wanted to bring up the pace, although I feel dubstep is probably closer to the consistent pace we want to be at without feeling tortured and distorted. I also happen to like dubstep.

Thanks Oveur, I spent all afternoon listening to all kinds of new cool music. It appears you got the tunes way under control and things are coming along nicely with lag fixes. I suppose, you won't be needing my roommate's CD collection? What a shame. At least now I can drown him out with this newly discovered speedcore gabber.

BTW, these dev blog posts are great.

Aranial
Gallente
Empyrean Warriors
The Obsidian Front
Posted - 2010.08.25 00:46:00 - [23]
 

ok lol Brain overload with trying to keep up with these.

Keep up the excellent communication though :D.

Trebor Whettam
Posted - 2010.08.25 00:59:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 25/08/2010 01:00:32
Originally by: Kaksakamasami
Originally by: Jacob Stirling
Newbie trainee at current day programming has request for clarification:

"There is a lot of C code that needs recompiling."

C or C++?

I ask because from what I've read, C++ is the industry standard and that's what I'm focusing on. C#, as I understand it, is better suited for porting to consoles. But C++ is the computer standard, though, of course, others are used. But I would have thought standard C would be considered ancient by now.

Thought I might look at Python as well.


C is essentially subset of C++. It's really just C++ without all the cool and complicated stuff. You really can't learn C++ without accidentally learning C.

Oh, and C is used in ****load of places where you need raw performance without all this fancy stuff C++ brings.


C is a subset of C++ only in the literal sense. Ninety-nine percent of learning a programming language is learning the style paradigm that programs in the given language are written. C++ is object oriented, and C is not, so nontrivial programs are structured very differently in each language.

tl;dr: Learn both languages. Also take a look at some Functional and Declarative programs. Expand the mind.

Andrevv
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.25 04:38:00 - [25]
 

Do you ever wish you could go back to 2000 you and smack them over the head, "BEWARE THE GIL! BEWARE!!"

Dennison Spade
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:21:00 - [26]
 

I'm waiting for a blog post.. "WE FIXED THE LAG, NO MORE PROBLEMS"...

these posts are are written in geekese, it's good if you speak developer geek, but if you don't it's like reading wallpaper.. I've never understood the fascination with "programming" languages.. I can't wait to the day when all this crap is transparent to us and we just get good functionality. Who cares what you write you code in, all I care about is that it works...

one day.

Peter Tjordenskiold
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2010.08.25 05:41:00 - [27]
 

Thanks for this blog!

Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2010.08.25 06:53:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Freyya on 25/08/2010 07:07:00
I already posted this question in the previous devblog comments but this place seems to be more suited for it since it is about the subject in whole;

As to the limits this GIL thingy apparantly impose; How far are you tied down by the design fundementals of Python/stackless or not in regards to multiple cores? Are you pretty much tied to the definitions it provides or can you rewrite the core code parts of Python to stomp away the stupid things it makes you do? As to avoiding the whole spaghetti workarounds and such...
Remember; I'm not afraid to implement the mental image of a certain exec prod. wearing a certain diabolical fabric used to conceal (or show in this case) the appropriate body parts. I might even step it up a notch or 2..

Part of the question was already answered with the bit as to having to port some in-house developped adjustments of the code i guess, but i'm still wondering about the hard limits this apparantly "ancient" way of coding processes apply. Are there any similar languages on the horizon that allow you to do porting with minimal adjustments to the code already there but still give you massive improvements as to the current and future way of coding? Or is it building on top of Python 2.7 yourself from here on in since 3.0 doesn't give you enough benefits?

Also;
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:16:13
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 24/08/2010 20:15:59
I would have expected something more akin to gabber or jumpstyle if we just wanted to bring up the pace, although I feel dubstep is probably closer to the consistent pace we want to be at without feeling tortured and distorted. I also happen to like dubstep.


Dear god man. Gabber is ancient and while i've been in the scene of the dutch hardcore for quite some time i'm glad it actually died off alot (still alot of hardcore parties around though) and the same goes for jumpstyle.
The Trend standards these days are either Hardstyle (step down from Hardcore) and Techno/Club/House which is my personal fav. Outdoor parties with loads of happy people instead of raging, pills loaded agressive asses.

Paknac Queltel
Baden's Army
Posted - 2010.08.25 07:30:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stirling
Newbie trainee at current day programming has request for clarification:

"There is a lot of C code that needs recompiling."

C or C++?

I ask because from what I've read, C++ is the industry standard and that's what I'm focusing on. C#, as I understand it, is better suited for porting to consoles. But C++ is the computer standard, though, of course, others are used. But I would have thought standard C would be considered ancient by now.

Thought I might look at Python as well.
I prefer to think of C++ as C with a side order of pain.

As for C#, it's a very decent high-level language. Somewhat annoying if you need to interface with unmanaged code though. Sooner or later you'll run into the pain that is using pointers in C#.

I'm still looking for a language that combines the best of C and C# without adding the worst of C++...

I would go with the suggestion elsewhere in this thread to learn both C and C++ and their ways of doing things, and go further and suggest you do the same for any language that you think you may like. The more you know, the less you're restricted by a single toolset and way of thinking.

And yes, look at Python. You won't regret it.

Claire Voyant
Posted - 2010.08.25 07:34:00 - [30]
 

Regarding the Python GIL issue. It seems to me that you cold run small scale tests (10-100 users/bots on singularity) with logging similar to what David Beazley presented in his video to see if you get excessive thrashing and/or if multi-core processors are an issue. It might at least point you in the right direction. Sometimes hitting things with a small hammer and analyzing them under a microscope is preferable to beating them to a mangled mess with a sledgehammer.


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