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REQUIN TIRAN
Posted - 2010.08.22 19:27:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: REQUIN TIRAN on 22/08/2010 19:27:31
Hello
I am not sure if this is been proposed to the CSM yet, but it would not be unlikely. is well known for the most of you that the system used for mining in EVE is one of the easiest things to do in the game (also boring, but profitable), you just need to use a ship with the proper fit, jump to a belt of asteroids or ice, turn your lasers on and wait for it to fill your cargo then carry to the station or transfer to a can or to another ship with more capacity.
Although there are several ways to do this, depending on the ships and methods, the mechanism remains very similar, is so easy that there are programs created specifically to mine just by turn on the computer, which violates the EULA as far as I remember.

Much has been spoken about the problem of "Macrominers" and "Macroratting" but there has been no effective action against this matter, and I'm not to discuss who is to blame in this respect, my interest is directed towards a possible solution.

My proposal is based on:

1-The change of name of the asteroid belts and ice "belts" to "fields", as the "belts" are not circling anything (at least in the strict sense of the word).

2- The change of name is consistent with the way that would have the new "fields" (not in a linear fashion, if not in a spherical form), it makes the miners have to move between the asteroids or do more bookmarks in order to mine them, what would make the profession of mining more active with the environment rather than just jump to a single bookmark.

3- Move all the "belts" of ORE and ICE in highsec, lowsec and 0.0 to locations reachable only via exploration system (probes), which I think would make impossible for a macro to reach these locations. this forces the miners and rat killers to be present in the mining and ratting process.

should not take more than lv4 on the skills of exploration to find an "Asteroid Field".

4- That asteroids do not lower their respawn a few days, to always keep the same base respawn after DT.

5- A warning system to indicate the low amount of mineral in an asteroid that is mined(less than 1000 units)


PROS:
- The profession is a bit more attractive, less boring (but just as profitable).
- To be less boring perhaps more people want to mine without using macros.
- Move asteroids to sites of exploration, will remove the macros (miners / ratting) two for the price of one!
-We have really a real market for minerals, which would lead to a real economy.

CONS:
-Exploration skills add to the list of the mining profession (although it would not be much).
-Many Macros owners really angry.

This is nothing new, this is already done in W-Space (Wormholes), the mechanics just need to be moved to the rest of EVE. (Do not know if it would be difficult or easy).

In my opinion is a good option to convert mining in something more attractive and less boring, besides solving a problem that takes a long time without solution.

I'm not a programmer and not know if the macros can be adapted to this change, but I don`t think is possible, or macros in wormholes would exist right?

sorry if I made any grammar mistake, English is not my native language.



Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.22 19:34:00 - [2]
 

I like the idea to basically move all static belts to grav sites (scanning, like you said). Maybe leave a few static belts with only veld or something for the newbs.

#5 though I don't agree with. You can already do this if you have a survey scanner. If you want to maximize your yield by not mining a rock with only 1 piece of ore left on a 3 minute cycle, check the survey scanner.

In the end though, the only way to stop bots would be to add a captcha when mining... LaughingLaughing

Mors Hades
Posted - 2010.08.22 19:43:00 - [3]
 

I like the idea, I'm a miner with little experience but the changes look good to me

thumb up!

Darveses
Fantastulousification Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.22 19:47:00 - [4]
 

I think CCP announced planetary ring mining and other exciting stuff in some video i certainly won't find now, but thats at least 17 months away so .. Razz

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.22 20:08:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Darveses
I think CCP announced planetary ring mining and other exciting stuff in some video i certainly won't find now, but thats at least 17 months away so .. Razz

Yea they were talking about actual BELTS around planets, 100s of kms long. A few years ago.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.08.22 21:45:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Bunyip on 28/08/2010 03:17:22
Hello Tiran,

I had this idea when I was in the CSM, and developed it a bit too. In order to make this feasible, barges and exhumers would need to be able to scan these 'fields' down using the on-board scanner so as to prevent using one of their already limited high-slots.

This otherwise seems like a good idea, but the ice mining aspect could be enhanced further. The idea I developed is visible under my overhaul of POSes, but could easily be implemented separate from that to enhance the concept of ice mining as it is.

If you're interested in reading about my concept, feel free to click the link above. However, I do support this idea.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.08.23 02:45:00 - [7]
 

Bunyip, since your time in CSM we've had the Orca introduced and exploration has been massively overhauled.

There is nothing stopping a miner spending a few days training Astrometrics, buying a T1 astrometrics frigate, probing down an asteroid pocket, getting the Orca pilot to warp to the field, then switching to the Hulk (storing the frigate in the ship maintenance bay). The Orca pilot could even be doing the exploration while the Hulk pilots are mining.

@Requin: this will not prevent macros. The macro-user would just set their mining bookmark to the appropriate location, start the macro and walk away.

What would work against macros is to limit the volume of ore in any pocket. A pocket limited to about an hour's effort for two Hulks + Orca fleet should reduce the value of a mining macro.

To make this work, I would keep a certain number of pockets in a system, respawning at a random location after some delay. In higher sec systems, the pockets would contain less ore, there would be fewer of them, and they would take longer to respawn after being depleted (and have a higher variance in respawn time). Thus the folks who can log in immediately after downtime aren't getting an unfair advantage in the mining game, and the need for reseeding during downtime is removed.

As an example, someone wanders into a 0.7 system and probes down eight pockets. Each pocket in this system is picked from the "set" of twenty available for that security label system. These 0.7 pockets are on a respawn timer of 120 min 30 min.

These timers and pocket sizes could be adjusted to provide the same maximum volume of ore per day for any given system. So rather than have a belt respawning at DT with 500k units of veldspar, that system could have one pocket with 100k units of veldspar, with a 4h 45m 30m respawn delay (a maximum of five respawns per 23h day, assuming 30m to clear out 100k units).

The variance in the respawn time would work to prevent people setting up schedules for returning to a particular pocket, and thus allow opportunistic mining.

These asteroid pockets would be specific to that system, as opposed to other exploration sites which migrate around a constellation/region. There could be similar pockets that migrate to other systems of the same security type.

One security type could cover 0.7 systems with a higher proportion of scordite than plagioclase, another security type could cover 0.7 systems with a higher proportion of kernite than scordite. Thus heavy mining of scordite in Emolgranlan could lead to higher volumes of scordite spawning in Atgur. Both Emolgranlan would have their normal system asteroid pockets, but the region-wide security-class pockets would always spawn elsewhere.

Leaving the actual mechanic of mining as it is but adding the need for exploration and surveying, should be enough to spice up the profession a little while simultaneously making life a little more difficult for macroers (and opportunistic gankers).

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2010.08.23 05:53:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Arkanor on 23/08/2010 05:53:24
TBH if you want to make it harder for macros to mine (and somewhat more interesting to do) give the player a little minigame (read: GAME, not inane click sink) or whatnot so it's not just hit F1, wait for cargohold to fill. I think making every site a scan-down site is a little extreme, and doesn't really solve the "mining is boring as ****" problem.

There's so much dead time in this game, mining and ratting should not simply be "activate lasers/weapons, wait for roids/rats to die". Why aren't we using the sleeper AI for all NPC rats again?

REQUIN TIRAN
Posted - 2010.08.23 06:30:00 - [9]
 

Thank you all for the contributions to the forum, this is not a new idea and may have been discussed before but has not yet been implemented so that it remains valid.

Bunyip i `m interested in reading your consept, and i wait for it When You Can post it.

on the contribution of mara, thanks very enlightening if somewhat complex, but well this is EVE!, in my opinion base the amount of mineral in small amounts can help, but do not know if this may discourage the mining, and this would involve major changes. My proposal goes on the side of the mechanism used in the wormholes and that is already implemented and would only have to be exported to "NEW EDEN".

And do not think macros are dedicated to exploring, do a bookmark (in the new fields would require more than one) and then activate it, at least I do not think that most would do.
They do it (macro) because it's easy, is automatic and is afk, and the fact that every day of every week of every month will be mandatory search fields with probes not going to like much.
I might be wrong but I think they are lazy and not going to do it.

Please check the box if you want to give me your support When you do the post, the more people do this, more attention to this matter to be discussed in the CSM and CCP.

Thx again

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.23 07:28:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 23/08/2010 07:27:52
Originally by: Bunyip
Hello Tiran,

I had this idea when I was in the CSM, and developed it a bit too. In order to make this feasible, barges and exhumers would need to be able to scan these 'fields' down using the on-board scanner so as to prevent using one of their already limited high-slots.

This otherwise seems like a good idea, but the ice mining aspect could be enhanced further. The idea I developed is visible under my overhaul of POSes, but could easily be implemented separate from that to enhance the concept of ice mining as it is.

If you're interested in reading about my concept, I'll show the link on this post as soon as I correct the eve-files information. However, I do support this idea.



This. On board scanner or add a special, dedicate, high slot for a probe launcher similar to the one on the Zephyr.

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Bunyip, since your time in CSM we've had the Orca introduced and exploration has been massively overhauled.

There is nothing stopping a miner spending a few days training Astrometrics, buying a T1 astrometrics frigate, probing down an asteroid pocket, getting the Orca pilot to warp to the field, then switching to the Hulk (storing the frigate in the ship maintenance bay). The Orca pilot could even be doing the exploration while the Hulk pilots are mining.



The training time is reasonably small, but the second part of your comment show that you think in terms of alts and not players.

Try that with a new player.

No Orca, no skill to pilot even an exumer, no isk to buy one or the other. Balancing the game around old players and their alts is really a horrible way to go.

/support to the general idea.

REQUIN TIRAN
Posted - 2010.08.23 14:25:00 - [11]
 

venkul you are right in part, but in the early days you are not mining too much, perhaps some fields can be located in some areas for rookies, but to prevent the macros (mostly) an agent in this system could give a Bookmark to go there and you can only access these agents if you finish the industry tutorial, this give you time to train the proper skills for exploration, training this skills and be able to do it well for a rookie don`t take more than a week, two if it takes all the skills to LV4 (with appropriate learning skills), and think they are avaliable in a tutorial (i`m not sure) so no investment.

The mining agent mechanics (that wich give you the BM) can be a nice tool too.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:25:00 - [12]
 

I don't think anything will really stop macros but what might limit their effect is to make Mining interactive rather then passive.

There has been COUNTLESS ideas to improve mining and remove macros none of which CCP have really initiated. They've added "better" belts to exploration so active participants get higher grade ores in high-sec but that doesn't really stop the Macros from doing what they are doing, or lower their impact. Probably the best idea I've heard was one from a fellow corp mate and long time buddy. The idea is to keep mining exactly the same as it is now, but you have an option to "Enhance" your yield by interacting directly with the mining process itself. He used "Tetris" as an example of how interactive mining would work.

Basically the mining laser or group of lasers has an option on it to "Manual Operation", when selected you are given a window which shows the ore currently entering in the mining laser's "capacitor" before dumping into the cargo hold. The shapes of ore pieces are random shapes and sizes and they all come in the very center of the capacitor. If you do nothing, you actually lose efficiency then letting the computer do the sorting, (Which is what happens when you don't perform manual operation.) So going into the Manual mode you HAVE to interact otherwise you're yield is less then normal mode.

However. In Manual mode you are given the options to move or trash the piece of ore the lasers have brought in. You'll have 10 seconds to place the ore, but you can move any ore anywhere in the capacitor or even trash pieces making room for better fitting pieces. Basically you are sorting out the ore to take up the lest amount of space possible. Like I said, the ore pieces are different shapes and size. Once it's "full" it auto dumps into the cargo hold. At the end of the mining lasers cycle it dumps whatever is in the capacitor into the cargo hold. Note that I said - Autodump, not manual dump. I thought the same thing but my buddy made a great point, why would a macro not just go manual mode and dump into cargo every 10 seconds, they get maximum ore that way. The alternative he had was was very similar, only change was, once the capacitor gets to the amount of ore a cycle would normally produce in automatic mode, it dumps.

The idea for that was, The capacitor for the group of mining lasers is more then the mining lasers produce, for example lets say a Hulk with skills produces 3,000m3 of ORE, well the capacitor on the same hulk is say 5,000m3. This gives the Manual Operation the ability to produce up to 5,000m3 per cycle. But he added more later saying that once it's full it dumps and the ore keeps coming in. This means if you're REALLY good at sorting the ore pieces, you could get OVER 5,000m3 before the lasers autodump the capacitor and start again on a new cycle. So if you're lucky and got really big pieces that took up a lot of room and you hit the 5,000m3 capacity it would dump and start again.

He wanted to make it so if a Macro chooses "Manual Operation" and does nothing they actually lose out and it might only have 1,000m3 in the capacitor at the end of the cycle. So he thought the ore pieces would have a little generic physics like dropping decent sides rocks into a bucket. If you have the ability to real time sort the rocks going into the bucket and move current rocks in there, you'll hold a lot more rocks. If you do nothing the rocks basically fall where they fall eventually filling the bucket and any more rocks being added simply fall out of the bucket.

He never proposed it on the forum because while it would make mining more fun and rewarding for the active player, without effecting the macros. The programing of this idea is significant and balancing would be very difficult, you could have an army of people performing manual mining which would crash prices as everyone is mining more, along with the current macro contribution.

MNagy
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:34:00 - [13]
 

I somewhat like the idea.

Cause it bothers the heck outa me sitting in a roid belt and a ship warps in - and starts mining the same rocks as you do. You try to conversation them and no reply.
Totally tell who is a macro and who is not.

I'd give it a try to see if this works.


Sully Tude
Posted - 2010.08.26 18:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Sully Tude on 26/08/2010 18:52:19
Originally by: SencneS
(good ideas)


I'm terrible at tetris though :P

Another idea: manually aiming your lasers, and in a similar way to how your planetary interaction extractor rate is affected by the abundance of a material at a certain location, if you manually train your lasers on "hot-spot" (onboard scanner finds most, survey scanner finds better ones) on the asteroid, your yield will be higher. As the asteroids rotate you lose line-of-sight with the hot-spots and have to shift the lasers. Or, you could just aim them at the centre of the roid, go afk, and get a third of the current yield.

Might make it more annoying, but could make it a little more challenging and require more brains to do. Spice it up by having the asteroids break apart occassionally, crash into each other, whatever.

REQUIN TIRAN
Posted - 2010.08.27 12:38:00 - [15]
 

Thx for the contributions, very good ideas

Lucyna
Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.27 23:10:00 - [16]
 

Please make it stop please.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.08.31 07:37:00 - [17]
 

Updated my original post with the URL. Feel free to check it out and give me any constructive criticism. It is not without it's problems, but it seems to take care of a lot of the most common gripes about POSes in one fell swoop.

Khala Muqtadir
Posted - 2010.09.03 02:18:00 - [18]
 

I'm mining for a very short time, but in the short time I have been doing it I got bored fast enough to be left at all, I love your proposal seems quite reasonable but don`t think how could be convenient for the new players the exploration system, but hey, if that so, and having so many millions of isk hidden in these new fields that I think all we ever been atracted by mining would return to give it a try.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.09.03 06:23:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 03/09/2010 06:22:59
Funny thing is there is already a Macro for scaning stuff down in wormholes haha :)

Ya humans are lazy man you cant fix that with anything. ugh

Total Disaster
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.09.03 07:57:00 - [20]
 

good idea in general, but you've to think about the new players (as said before)

for the manual aiming, getting more yield idea, that won't stop any macrominer. Yes, they'll be slower, but they'll still have a steady income.

I would rather see a special reward for miners that are actually sitting infront of the game. Like some half destroyed modules inside of roids (from battles long ago), that can only be extracted by some complicated not macroable procedure.
Those modules can be reverse engineered and rebuilt or something like that (throw in your ideas).
Or just give manual miners the chance to find a high end vein in the roid


you can't really kill the macroers... but can only try to cripple them as much as possible

Michela
Bosun Shipyards
Posted - 2010.09.11 04:11:00 - [21]
 

(disclaimer: I'm a maxxed-out Hulk pilot)

Let's be serious, that which makes things harder for the macroers often makes mining worse for legitimate players. Adding extra goodies for those present is a good idea.

Allowing us to explore to find better belts is a good one.

Making basic mining into some horrid mini-game is a terrible idea. It has been for years.


 

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