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blankseplocked Low-sec science & industry... What would it take for you?
 
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rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.08.20 21:20:00 - [1]
 

This isn't a question, more of a desire to discuss. There is one thing about low sec that everyone knows - it's dead. What would it take for you, an industrialist/scientist, to want to go to low sec? Don't worry about 0.0. That's another topic. Focus on low sec!

First off, we all know that labs in low sec are packed. So obviously some people think that a lower wait time for lab slots is worth the risk. This is a simple example. I will take some BPO's or BPC's through low sec (or into) right now no problem. Merely traveling through low sec for a short period of time isn't an issue.

But what about manufacturing? The only reason I know of that players actually use manufacturing slots outside of high sec is to make capitol ships. And that is due to strict hard coded game limitations.

Think about it. There are two things that would entice you to go to low sec for your needs. Either make high sec less appealing or low sec more appealing.

Heres my example: A 25% tax on manufacturing (using same system that insurance uses for price) in high sec would entice me to start manufacturing in low sec. A tax on invention/copying/research in high sec would do the same. If minerals were cheaper and more abundant in low sec, it'd lure me in as well.

What would it take for you to want to go to low sec to do your deeds?




Berikath
Posted - 2010.08.20 21:45:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Berikath on 20/08/2010 21:55:35
Originally by: rain9441
This isn't a question, more of a desire to discuss. There is one thing about low sec that everyone knows - it's dead. What would it take for you, an industrialist/scientist, to want to go to low sec? Don't worry about 0.0. That's another topic. Focus on low sec!

First off, we all know that labs in low sec are packed. So obviously some people think that a lower wait time for lab slots is worth the risk. This is a simple example. I will take some BPO's or BPC's through low sec (or into) right now no problem. Merely traveling through low sec for a short period of time isn't an issue.

But what about manufacturing? The only reason I know of that players actually use manufacturing slots outside of high sec is to make capitol ships. And that is due to strict hard coded game limitations.

Think about it. There are two things that would entice you to go to low sec for your needs. Either make high sec less appealing or low sec more appealing.

Heres my example: A 25% tax on manufacturing (using same system that insurance uses for price) in high sec would entice me to start manufacturing in low sec. A tax on invention/copying/research in high sec would do the same. If minerals were cheaper and more abundant in low sec, it'd lure me in as well.

What would it take for you to want to go to low sec to do your deeds?




Tax on high-sec production = bad idea.

What would it take me to move production to low sec? Well, for high-value items.... a lot. Personally, I'm not gonna move hundreds of millions in ISK through low-sec, cuz I can't afford to lose it. However, if it were lower-value, high-volume goods (say, ammo), a time bonus would do the trick. Maybe split the difference between producing in a POS and in a station- .85 time multi for ammo?

Then there's a benefit to producing in low-sec, but it doesn't make price/unit any different... and, I mean, losing an indy full of ammo would suck, but still.... it's just ammo, you'll probably recover.

*edit*

Also, I kinda think it might be interesting if you could use multiple slots for manufacturing to decrease the time it takes. Maybe something like.... time = base * (20 / (19 + slots used))

Maybe, due to extra logistics costs, job cost = (base cost for slots) * 1.5^(numslots-1)... that way, cost increase gets exponentially larger the more you use, and you don't get people using all the slots in a station to produce ammo faster.

Irae Ragwan
Posted - 2010.08.20 23:12:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 20/08/2010 23:12:45
Same tired argument that has come up about lowsec over the years re-hashed with a diffirent audience.

Listen, you can't carrot and stick people into lowsec right now. Rewards for operating major industry in lowsec -will never- be high enough to justify the risk for most players. The only appreciable diffirence between lowsec and nullsec for pve players is the lack of drag bubbles. And it's PLENTY easy enough to disrupt traffic completely without utilizing those unless you're traveling in a cov ops or blockade runner, and for most folks that means a huge bottleneck in their logistics. So, in order for lowsec to be a viable alterative to highsec, or joining a nullsec empire with blues everywhere, you'd have to equate the two in profitability. That essentially makes lowsec into nullsec without bubbles -literally- and you'll quickly watch as apex alliances swoop in to gobble up more territory.

That wouldn't be good for anyone currently living in lowsec or any prospective highsec players you hope to move there. Which leaves you with the second option: putting a big nerf on highsec. I'll be honest, I do think highsec offers too much. I think lvl 4's especially were overly generous for years and probably still are, but that is the way CCP let the game evolve and you'd cause unholy hell if you tried to snatch a substantial portion of income from permanent highsec residents.

I think the solution lies in making lowsec have it's own unique draw (a bit like wormhole space perhaps) and niche for a lot of little things. Spruce up FW so it's not as stale, make some lowsec-only ore/gas/something industry related that needs to be acquired for the production of some niche market, and generally push, but not force people out there in search of a goal other than smalltime pvp. That said, I think lowsec wasteland is still pretty interesting as it stands. I spend a good deal of my time there doing pvp as well as exploration, the occasional mission, and manufacturing enough that I don't need to take a trip to Jita any time I loose a ship. It's not an easy life and i'm 100% sure i'd be billions richer if I based myself in highsec, but if you enjoy dangerous space, pvp, dislike nullsec politics, and want just enough to get by on, then lowsec is the place for you.

Malu Minse
Caldari
Immineo Interitus
Posted - 2010.08.21 00:01:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Malu Minse on 21/08/2010 00:09:19
It's easy, make it so pvp can no longer be inflicted on pve ships. All lowsec is to a non-pvp fitted ship, is a loss, complete and total. Months of work lost on one bad jump. That's why lowsec is empty. Fix that, and more non-pvp ships will appear in <=0.4.

Punishing high-sec will mean less players, not more people willingly supplying gankers with killmails. I myself can't even contemplate running invention jobs thanks to the total absence of copy slots, and I won't be taking anything bigger than an empty t1 frig into ganksec no matter what the supposed benefits are.

As long as non-pvp'ers are punished for jumping into that orange-colored waypoint, they won't go there, sorry.

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.08.21 01:04:00 - [5]
 

Its too easy for a a big alliance to drop in 15 caps and wipe your indy POS in a flash.

I dont think I would do it at any price.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2010.08.21 01:40:00 - [6]
 

What will make me move industrial activities to lowsec?

Simple: I need my profit in lowsec to be greater than highsec after deducting losses from extra logistics and inevitable pvp. I also must be able to carry out my activities when I want to (not camped in/out) as I may have a limited time window to play EvE


SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2010.08.21 02:03:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: rain9441
Tired and oft-repeated nonsense.




This "discussion" basically abstracts down to, "What would it take for you to do something annoying, unfun and unpleasant? Would making something else less pleasant do it? Or marginally reducing the unpleasantness?"

Low-sec is fundamentally flawed at the moment. All of the assorted plans to either draw or force people into low sec are idiotic and none of them would work. If you want more people in low-sec, the only thing to do is to fix low sec.

Bailey Remi
Posted - 2010.08.21 05:55:00 - [8]
 

Honestly what I would like to see is for the hi-sec (maybe all?) research and manufacturing be tied to standings with the corporation that owns the station. Want to research your BPOs in high-sec? Better get that standing up. Currently anyone with a cheap bpo can get in the que, there needs to be more limitations on that. This applies more to research obviously, manufacturing would have to be much more lax, if affected at all.

I also wish you could setup public research stations, renting out slots at hi-sec POSs. Need a POS revamp, thats for sure.

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.21 08:05:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: rain9441
This isn't a question, more of a desire to discuss. There is one thing about low sec that everyone knows - it's dead. What would it take for you, an industrialist/scientist, to want to go to low sec? Don't worry about 0.0. That's another topic. Focus on low sec!

As someone who actually does (well, did, I couldn't stand it any more) do industry in low sec I think that you're way off the mark in the question that you're asking.

Where I was (20 jumps from Jita or so) all the moons in our system were routinely occupied by active POS. You actually have to go several jumps in towards a non-pipe area (0.4 sec doesn't count) to find a significant number of free moons.

Really, cyno alts + jump freighters and blockade runners make running a low sec pos pretty low risk but especially the blockade runner is very, very tedious.

Having people sitting in POS bubbles doesn't make low sec active though.

The problems with low sec are much more to do with the speed at which players actually playing the game can get scanned down and killed imho.

Originally by: rain9441
First off, we all know that labs in low sec are packed. So obviously some people think that a lower wait time for lab slots is worth the risk. This is a simple example. I will take some BPO's or BPC's through low sec (or into) right now no problem. Merely traveling through low sec for a short period of time isn't an issue.

If someone's going to open a research POS then they're going to do it in high sec if they've got any sense. If they can't be bothered to operate a high sec POS then chances are they wont operate a low sec one that needs a lot higher guns/lab ratio and more effort to fuel.

Originally by: rain9441

Think about it. There are two things that would entice you to go to low sec for your needs. Either make high sec less appealing or low sec more appealing.

Firstly I think you need to make POS more appealing, period. Really.

If you're just talking about using station manufacturing facilities then I'd say that the current offering of transport ships is not at all friendly to low sec manufacturers. Blockade runners and even deep space transports are too small, orcas and freighters are way too vulnerable and jump freighters need 2 accounts and 4 billion isk.

So you could change game mechanics to force manufacturers into low sec but I reckon you'd lose a lot of them. It's really not much fun being a manufacturer as it is, let alone being a manufacturer and a loot pinata for griefers and losing a couple of hundred million isk when you get unlucky.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.21 08:38:00 - [10]
 

Low-sec industry normally cannot be profitable since PvP is a leisure activity and not one for profit. People will come to trash your low-sec operation while taking a loss themselves.

Piracy, while looking at isk/hour is a pretty poor profession. Still people do it. It is a bit hard to compete economically with that.

Ghoest
Posted - 2010.08.21 12:39:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth
Low-sec industry normally cannot be profitable since PvP is a leisure activity and not one for profit. People will come to trash your low-sec operation while taking a loss themselves.

Piracy, while looking at isk/hour is a pretty poor profession. Still people do it. It is a bit hard to compete economically with that.


Yes.

I know people in various alliances that pop low sec POS for sh!ts and giggles. If the low sec POS were a back bone of industry then 0.0 alliances would pop them even more because it would give a new dynamic where protected 0.0 pretty much owned all industry.


 

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