open All Channels
seplocked Missions & Complexes
blankseplocked NPC Defenders and Grouped Missiles: There Can Be Only One
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.15 21:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 23/08/2010 13:17:39
Edited by: stoicfaux on 16/08/2010 19:17:26
Edited by: stoicfaux on 16/08/2010 19:04:51

Summary
Grouped missiles suffer significantly less from NPC Defenders missiles than singly launched missiles.

NPCs will only launch a single missile against a missile group. The more missiles you have in a group, the less effective NPC defenders are in reducing your DPS.

Update: 2010.08.23: Some NPCs can kill more than one missile in a group, such as Rachen in the Vengeance missions, who can kill three missiles with one defender. Current, working, not-yet-tested theory is that some NPCs have a missileDamageMultiplier of 2+ that attribute that buffs defenders and allows them to kill multiple missiles.

Experiment Setup
Target: Core Port Admiral with a 23% chance to launch a defender.

Firing Individual Missiles:
* 240 volleys (1 missile per volley)
* 176 volleys hit (176 missiles hit)
* 64 volleys were destroyed (64 missiles were destroyed)
** 26.7% of all missiles were destroyed.

Firing Groups of Six Missiles
* 240 volleys (6 missiles per volley, 1440 missiles)
* 186 volleys hit with all 6 missiles (1116 missiles hit)
* 54 volleys hit with 5 missiles (270 missiles hit, 54 were destroyed)
* there were no other volley sizes (only one defender was ever launched at a volley)
** 3.8% of all missiles were destroyed (22.5% of volleys were affected by defenders)

Theoretical Numbers
With a 23% defender launch range, against single missile groups, 23% of the total missiles fired should be destroyed. Against six missile groups, 3.8% of the total missiles fires should be destroyed.

Obviously, defender launch chance is only being calculated once per missile group regardless of size. (One defender roll per missile in the stack is not being made.) The single defender does one defender's worth of damage. (Defender damage is not being increased to represent multiple defenders launching against a group of missiles.)


Original post for reference:

Edited by: stoicfaux on 15/08/2010 22:04:00

Is it just me or is there a maximum of just one defender being fired at a group of missiles by NPCs in missions, regardless of the number of missiles in the group?

For example, a Core Rear Admiral has a 24% chance of firing a defender and has matching 43% kinetic resists to both armor and shield. Here's a particularly egregious example from my logs:

Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1609.6 damage. <-- hit with 6 of 6 missiles
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1341.3 damage. <-- hit with 5 of 6 missiles (1609.6 * 5/6 = 1341.3)
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1609.6 damage. <-- hit with 6 of 6
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1609.6 damage. <-- hit with 6 of 6
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1341.3 damage. <-- hit with 5 of 6 missiles (1609.6 * 5/6 = 1341.3)
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1341.3 damage. <-- hit with 5 of 6 missiles (1609.6 * 5/6 = 1341.3)
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 1609.6 damage. <-- hit with 6 of 6
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 2645.5 damage. <-- hitting hull
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 2463.8 damage. <-- hitting hull
Your group of Scourge Fury Heavy Missile hits Core Rear Admiral, doing 2818.4 damage. <-- hitting hull

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.16 02:00:00 - [2]
 

I would consider that being very possible

try clearing the weapon group and seeing how many hit?

Allestin Villimar
Zebra Corp
Posted - 2010.08.16 04:51:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 16/08/2010 07:36:42
Most NPCs only fire 1 defender at each group. This is probably to make up for the fact that one of their defenders can knock out torpedoes.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.16 06:31:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 16/08/2010 06:34:42
Yes.

When you group missile launchers, what you're doing mechanics-wise is creating one single "super missile" that has the stats of all the missiles combined (most importantly the combined damage and HP). This means that the rat AI can only fire one defender at it it's only one incoming missile after all. If a defender hits that super-missile, it gets its HP reduced by the damage of one defender (surprise!), which is conveniently exactly the same as the HP of one normal (non-torp) missile, and when the super-missile finally hits the target, the damage done is proportional to the amount of HP the super-missile has: if it arrives with 75% HP, it does 75% damage.

I can't (be bothered to) find the weapon grouping dev blog right now, but the behaviour is explained there.

CanI haveyourstuff
Posted - 2010.08.16 06:44:00 - [5]
 

I have noticed that grouped missiles get alot less flared than ungrouped ones.

and no it's not just an illusion, when launchers are ungrouped then alot more of them get shot down.


I didnt collect any real data and people have been telling me that there is no difference if weapons are grouped or not but having done like 999999999999999999999999999999999999999 missions in eve I can tell that there is big difference

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2010.08.16 08:57:00 - [6]
 

Defenders are shot at a specific rate at the blob missile you send out. I have noticed (might be a bug or so) that a defenders was shot at my "blob" but failed to hit it and the next "blob" suffered from this defender and the defender shot at this "blob" (so two hits).

Usually I dont really care about defenders, but this is what I observed

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2010.08.16 09:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Defenders are shot at a specific rate at the blob missile you send out. I have noticed (might be a bug or so) that a defenders was shot at my "blob" but failed to hit it and the next "blob" suffered from this defender and the defender shot at this "blob" (so two hits).

Usually I dont really care about defenders, but this is what I observed


This didn't happen. Defenders fizzle off into space when their target is no longer present, just like any other missile. You may have heard the explosion anyway, that's just a glitch.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.16 14:50:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 16/08/2010 06:34:42
Yes.

When you group missile launchers, what you're doing mechanics-wise is creating one single "super missile" that has the stats of all the missiles combined (most importantly the combined damage and HP). This means that the rat AI can only fire one defender at it it's only one incoming missile after all. If a defender hits that super-missile, it gets its HP reduced by the damage of one defender (surprise!), which is conveniently exactly the same as the HP of one normal (non-torp) missile, and when the super-missile finally hits the target, the damage done is proportional to the amount of HP the super-missile has: if it arrives with 75% HP, it does 75% damage.

I can't (be bothered to) find the weapon grouping dev blog right now, but the behaviour is explained there.


I read the grouping dev blog and the testing thread for it.

Concerning defenders, the dev blog just talks about how defender damage affects a missile group. There's nothing stated or implied about NPC defender launch checks against missile groups.


The damage for the guns in a group are computed individually. Which would imply that doing a NPC defender launch check for each missile in a group would be possible or would have been done when programming the grouping feature.

From the dev blog: "The goal remains not to change general missile damage or resilience." I think they did change damage and resilience. If you launch 6 missiles individually against a 24% defender launch chance, then 4.56 missiles (76%) will get through. If just one defender is launched per missile group, then 5.76 missiles (96%) are getting through. That's a big change in missile damage and resilience.


Quote:
and when the super-missile finally hits the target, the damage done is proportional to the amount of HP the super-missile has: if it arrives with 75% HP, it does 75% damage.


And after spot checking my torpedo damage, I didn't see any reduced torpedo damage. That would imply that a missile group's HP is reduced only when an *entire* missile in the group is destroyed. Ex: it takes 4 defenders to kill a torpedo. If a defender hits a stack of 6 torpedoes, then instead of reducing the group damage to 5.75 torpedoes, you still hit for a full 6 torpedo's worth of damage. Which means that torpedoes, grouped or individually, are completely immune to NPC defenders (since NPCs appear incapable of launching 4+ defenders against a torpedo group.) Which does fall in line with the "goal remains not to change general missile damage or resilience" statement.


I guess I really need to grab some explosive precision HMLs and hop over to Dodixie to run some serp missions to get some formal numbers. Woot. Next on Oprah, spreadsheets and increased OCD, is there a link?



FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2010.08.16 15:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

And after spot checking my torpedo damage, I didn't see any reduced torpedo damage. That would imply that a missile group's HP is reduced only when an *entire* missile in the group is destroyed. Ex: it takes 4 defenders to kill a torpedo. If a defender hits a stack of 6 torpedoes, then instead of reducing the group damage to 5.75 torpedoes, you still hit for a full 6 torpedo's worth of damage. Which means that torpedoes, grouped or individually, are completely immune to NPC defenders (since NPCs appear incapable of launching 4+ defenders against a torpedo group.) Which does fall in line with the "goal remains not to change general missile damage or resilience" statement.


Except that NPCs cheat and kill any sort of missile with just one defender Rolling Eyes

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.16 15:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow

Except that NPCs cheat and kill any sort of missile with just one defender Rolling Eyes


The adults are talking, hush child.





stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.16 19:03:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 16/08/2010 19:07:05
Posted results of test run in OP. One defender per group, no matter what the size of the group.

Additional notes:
The Core Port Admiral target was orbiting at 37km at 139m/s for all launches.
For the most part, only one missile volley was in the air a time. The 2nd group was just launching when the first group hit. 4.15s between volleys.

Precision explosive HMLs were used with no BCUs active in order to minimize time spent waiting for the target to regen shields and armor.

In the final stage of the mission when firing at long range target, defenders would bypass closer missile groups. (i.e. the defenders only attack one specific missile group theory.)


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2010.08.17 11:16:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow
Except that NPCs cheat and kill any sort of missile with just one defender Rolling Eyes


Defender missiles fired by NPCs will kill half a torpedo. I thought this was common knowledge for some time.


stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.17 21:25:00 - [13]
 

A single NCP defender doesn't reduce torpedo damage regardless of whether the torpedo is grouped or single.


This also means that Cruise Golems suffer a bit more from defenders than Cruise CNRs, so the old 'it doesn't matter because defenders are percentage based' argument is invalid.

Golem: 4 * 2 = 8 effective missiles
CNR: 7 / .75 = 9.33 effective missiles

If we add in a Defender launch chance of 25%
Golem: 3.75 * 2 = 7.5 effective missiles
CNR: 6.75 / .75 = 9 effective missiles

The Cruise Golem is losing half a cruise missile to defenders versus the CNR's .33 loss. Or to put it another way, the CNR loses 3.5% of its dps to a 25% defender, while the Golem loses 6.25% of its dps.


Moriel Damodred
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2010.08.18 01:25:00 - [14]
 

why divide by .75?

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.18 01:32:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Moriel Damodred
why divide by .75?


CNR's 25% rate of fire bonus. CNR can fire 7/.75 = 9.33 missiles to the Golem's "eight."


Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.08.18 03:50:00 - [16]
 

Great job stoicfaux. Its nice to see some specific values for DPS lost to defenders - even if its only for one specific rat. A generic formula or value would be more generically useful - as a way to see what your "effective DPS" is (as opposed to, say, turrets which don't have this problem). Also, tautologies are awesome.

-Liang

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.18 04:27:00 - [17]
 

Formula is pretty brain dead easy:

(num_missiles_in_group - defender_chance) / (num_missiles_in_group) = %_of_dps


Defender Launch Chance
Group | 5% 10% 15% 20% 25% 50% 100%
Size +-------------------------------------------------------------------
8 | 99.38% 98.75% 98.13% 97.50% 96.88% 93.75% 87.50%
7 | 99.29% 98.57% 97.86% 97.14% 96.43% 92.86% 85.71%
6 | 99.17% 98.33% 97.50% 96.67% 95.83% 91.67% 83.33%
5 | 99.00% 98.00% 97.00% 96.00% 95.00% 90.00% 80.00%
4 | 98.75% 97.50% 96.25% 95.00% 93.75% 87.50% 75.00%
3 | 98.33% 96.67% 95.00% 93.33% 91.67% 83.33% 66.67%
2 | 97.50% 95.00% 92.50% 90.00% 87.50% 75.00% 50.00%
1 | 95.00% 90.00% 85.00% 80.00% 75.00% 50.00% 0.00%


Moral of the story: against NPC defenders, grouping is good.



Wave Nagai
Caldari
The Mercurial Order
Posted - 2010.08.18 05:21:00 - [18]
 

Interesting topic, though I can think of one exception to this rule. On the level 4 mission Vengeance, your final target is a 2.5 mil rat named Rachen Mysuna. I fly a Raven and have my missiles grouped into two groups of three, and entire volleys were getting wiped out by Rachen's defenders. I was curious to see if he was actually firing 3 defender missiles or what, so the next time I got the mission I un-grouped all my launchers and fired them in a steady stream so I could see exactly how many were getting hit by missiles. Turns out that Rachen would fire off 3 defenders in quick succession which would wipe out 3 of my missiles in a row.

I haven't done any other research on this, but I am very intrigued now. I'll have to try grouping all my launchers in one and see if that improves my speed a bit.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.18 13:37:00 - [19]
 

Good catch! I checked my logs and it does look like Rachen is killing multiple missiles. Double checking the database reveals that Rachen has a 25% launch chance and a missileDamageMultiplier 3.24. After spot checking the the logs, it looks like Rachen's defenders are killing three missiles a pop. By contrast the Core Port Admiral has no missileDamageMultiplier.

The three missile launches you saw were probably just three independent launches, one per missile group that was in flight.

I'll have to poke around in the logs some tonight.

Frozean
Posted - 2010.08.18 14:05:00 - [20]
 

/confirms rachen kills torps

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.18 15:19:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Frozean
/confirms rachen kills torps


Arg, that complicates things. How many defender groups hit the torpedo? Was it a single torpedo or a group? How many missile groups were in flight at one time? Did multiple defenders fire at the same time, or were they staggered (to match your missile launch cycle?)

I'm pretty positive that my logs show 3 out of 4 grouped cruise missiles killed against Rachen. A torp kill would contradict the assumption that NPC defender damage is a constant, or the assumption that a defender can only target the missile group that caused it to spawn.

Blech.

Builder Robert
Posted - 2010.08.18 18:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Frozean
/confirms rachen kills torps


Arg, that complicates things. How many defender groups hit the torpedo? Was it a single torpedo or a group? How many missile groups were in flight at one time? Did multiple defenders fire at the same time, or were they staggered (to match your missile launch cycle?)

I'm pretty positive that my logs show 3 out of 4 grouped cruise missiles killed against Rachen. A torp kill would contradict the assumption that NPC defender damage is a constant, or the assumption that a defender can only target the missile group that caused it to spawn.

Blech.



Or...3 defenders are launcher at the first torp fired and since it only takes 2 defenders to kill a torp the 3rd torp goes AWOL?

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.18 18:38:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 18/08/2010 18:47:39
Originally by: Builder Robert
Or...3 defenders are launcher at the first torp fired and since it only takes 2 defenders to kill a torp the 3rd torp goes AWOL?


It takes four defenders according to the devblog on grouping.

Eve DB:
Torp with 280 HP
Defender 70 explosive damage

Daergaar
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.18 19:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 18/08/2010 18:47:39
Originally by: Builder Robert
Or...3 defenders are launcher at the first torp fired and since it only takes 2 defenders to kill a torp the 3rd torp goes AWOL?


It takes four defenders according to the devblog on grouping.

Eve DB:
Torp with 280 HP
Defender 70 explosive damage



Four defenders...ASSUMING those defenders deal the same damage across all NPCs, which may or may not be the case as we've seen.

Frozean
Posted - 2010.08.19 01:27:00 - [25]
 

I ussualy use two groups of two torps on a golem

The first hit did exactly half the second group did.
Happened not often though.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.20 01:41:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Frozean
I ussualy use two groups of two torps on a golem

The first hit did exactly half the second group did.
Happened not often though.


I'm not seeing it in my logs. I've got 12 sets of entries with Javelin torps that don't show any damage degradation at all. They all look like the following.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:17 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 3025.6 damage.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:25 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 3025.6 damage.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:32 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 3326.4 damage.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:40 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 3925.2 damage.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:47 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 4371.9 damage.
[ 2010.04.24 02:25:58 ] (combat) Your group of Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 4870.6 damage.

However, I do have some cruise volleys that were definitely reduced by three.
[ 2009.07.14 01:12:23 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:12:32 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 549.9 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:12:41 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:12:50 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:12:58 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:13:07 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 549.9 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:13:16 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:13:25 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 2199.7 damage.
[ 2009.07.14 01:13:56 ] (combat) Your group of Wrath Cruise Missile hits Rachen Mysuna, doing 549.9 damage.

From what I'm seeing in my logs, Rachen is doing three defender's worth of damage. If you're losing a torpedo then you must have been hit with two flights of defenders.

Do me a favor and double check your logs. If you're running windows:
1. Start, Run. Enter: "CMD"
2. cd /d "%userprofile%\Documents\EVE\logs\Gamelogs"
3. findstr /r "group.*Rachen" *.txt > c:\rachen.txt
4. notepad c:\rachen.txt


As an aside, there are 144 ships in the NPC database with a damage multiplier of 2 or higher and that use defenders. Things like the Sansha Fleet Outpost have a 100x missile damage multiplier and a 50% defender launch chance. Shocked



 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only