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CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.08.14 13:54:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Hack Harrison
Originally by: Pottsey
Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond."

It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.

In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
Suggest you learn what sharding is - pretty sure that Kestral going down with 74 plexes happened in EVERYONES universe, thereby proving Eve is a single shard. You are confusing multi SERVER with multi SHARD...

Edit - Chinese HAVE to have a different server due to THEIR gaming laws. As far as we are concerned - Tranquility is the only server in the world as the other one hides behind the Great Firewall of China...
Yes, and I submit that having a server in China due to Chinese law is different than sharding. CCP has often expressed its vision to have a single universe, in fact the last time we did that was at GDC China just a few weeks ago.

Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:54:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 13:59:36
Hack Harrison said " You are confusing multi SERVER with multi SHARD..."
No I am not. A shard is a game server hosting a massively multiplayer online game. When you have two or more different servers with two or more copies of the same universe you call each server a shard. It doesn't matter what the reasons is for the 2nd shard. If you have a 2nd server with a 2nd copy of the same universe then you are a sharded game.

What you are suggesting is along the lines of saying I have to have a 2nd car by law, so the 2nd car doesn't count and I only have 1 car. That to me is a crazy way to think. Eve has two shards with two copies of the universe.

If you have to choose which shard to play on to choose which group of freinds to play with then its a sharded game. Eve is like that.

Going by your logic many games are single sharded games even though they have 2 or more shards.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:59:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 12:39:50
CCP Explorer said " I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc."
Yes TQ is a single shard but it's not the only shard. The Tranquility shard cannot chat, buy, sell, kill or interact with the Serenity shard. There are two district servers with two groups of players. Hence why I call Eve a sharded game. It's not a major thing is just bugs me when people call Eve a single universe with only one shard. When you can have friends on a different shard you cannot play with. You don't go around calling other games single sharded just because the shards are in different county's. How can we call Eve a single-universe when there is more than 1 copy of the universe running?


Ebisu Kami said " Are you like... you know... stoned or so? Yes, you know, what sharded means, guessing from what you wrote, but how on earth and between all the stars does the meaning of the adjective 'sharded' apply to EVE?"
Excluding the Singularity shard as its not fair to count that, I see two shards with two groups of players. How does that not count as sharded? Are you using a different definition of shard so a 2nd server and 2nd group of players is not a shard?


...

First: Singularity is not a shard of the game, it's a test server. Nobody plays there in the traditional meaning, but simply tests future developments or actual bugs or their fixes.
Second: If a game is sharded, everyone can play on every shard, there is no technical restriction to the shard-choice. However you can not legally play on Serenity unless you are located in China (and technically you're not even allowed to do that, unless you are a chinese by nationality) and chinese people are not allowed to play on Tranquility, to be quiet exact not even if they're not located in China but have a valid chinese nationality. Serenity is not even run by CCP themselves, but a licensed copy, so it's legally a completely different game then what we play on Tranquility, not just a different shard.
Third: Stop abusing whatever you abuse, it really hurts you.

TyphMaster
Forcas armadas
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:02:00 - [214]
 

Action CCP .. More Action !

It is nice to see you trying to clear the fog between players and CCP but we cannot see any visibility of solution yet.


Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:07:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.


I think someone helped you with that answer but this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Looking forward to seeing more of that quality...

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:11:00 - [216]
 

Ebisu Kami said " If a game is sharded, everyone can play on every shard, there is no technical restriction to the shard-choice."
I have never come across that version of the definition of sharded, it sounds like you are just making that up to count Eve as single sharded. I have played other MMO's that only let me choose the shard for the county you are in. Should I count them as single sharded as well?

Going by every definition of shard in various dictionarys I have seen, Eve is 100% sharded matching the description perfectly.
The word shard and sharded does not take into account why a game is sharded. It only describes a game world that is sharded. It doesn't matter what the reason behind Eve being sharded is, it's still a 2nd shard. Just like it doesn't matter why you buy a 2nd home it's still a 2nd home.

I also don't see why being single shard is exceptional. It's pretty much the standard for space MMO's, with Eve being the only active space MMO with two shards.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:15:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 14:28:08
CCP Explorer said "Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers."
The reason you have a 2nd shard might be different from some other games but it's still a 2nd shard. Lots of games only have a 2nd shard due to law we do not go around calling those games single sharded. No one ever called Hellgate londond single sharded or any other games. Eve has two groups of players in two copy's of the universe, hence two shards.

What you are saying it similar to saying I work live in county A but work in county B which has a law everyone working in the country has a house there. So I am not going to count the house as my 2nd house as its law I have to have a house.


EDIT:
Hack Harrison said " Serenity is not even run by CCP themselves, but a licensed copy, so it's legally a completely different game then what we play on Tranquility, not just a different shard."
That's pretty common practise. For example a different company runs the D&D server in the UK/EU then US. The players in the EU cannot choose to play on the US shard.

Serenity might be for legal reasons but it's still a different shard by every common definition of the word shard.


EDIT2:
CCP Explorer said " Yes, and I submit that having a server in China due to Chinese law is different than sharding."
It's not. There are many reasons to have shards, law, server limitations, localisation changes, slightly different rules like role-play shards. But all are shards. The reasons behind it being a shard do not matter it's still a shard.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:18:00 - [218]
 

People were right. You're spechul, Pottsey.

/end

Faolan Fortune
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:51:00 - [219]
 

Heh, I hope they dish out free aspirin at CCP, I need some after reading a few of the comments hereRolling Eyes

Grez
Neo Spartans
Laconian Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:13:00 - [220]
 

Pottsey, you are, by definition of the word, ******ed.

Utterly, truly, ******ed.

Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:43:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 14:28:08
CCP Explorer said "Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers."
The reason you have a 2nd shard might be different from some other games but it's still a 2nd shard. Lots of games only have a 2nd shard due to law we do not go around calling those games single sharded. No one ever called Hellgate londond single sharded or any other games. Eve has two groups of players in two copy's of the universe, hence two shards.

What you are saying it similar to saying I work live in county A but work in county B which has a law everyone working in the country has a house there. So I am not going to count the house as my 2nd house as its law I have to have a house.


EDIT:
Hack Harrison said " Serenity is not even run by CCP themselves, but a licensed copy, so it's legally a completely different game then what we play on Tranquility, not just a different shard."
That's pretty common practise. For example a different company runs the D&D server in the UK/EU then US. The players in the EU cannot choose to play on the US shard.

Serenity might be for legal reasons but it's still a different shard by every common definition of the word shard.


EDIT2:
CCP Explorer said " Yes, and I submit that having a server in China due to Chinese law is different than sharding."
It's not. There are many reasons to have shards, law, server limitations, localisation changes, slightly different rules like role-play shards. But all are shards. The reasons behind it being a shard do not matter it's still a shard.

Respectfully, you are wrong.

T'san Manaan
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:45:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Malcanis said " I was going to correct you, but it's a waste of time. I'll just go straight to politely requesting that you shush."
Its not a waste of time, if I am wrong I will listen and learn. Please explain how I am wrong. I don't like going around saying things that are wrong.

How I am wrong? I thought a shard was a copy of the same game on different servers with each server being a shard. Sharded games have players split over the different servers normally being unable to interact with each other. Sometimes other shards have slightly different rules like a role-play shard or sometimes slightly different versions of the same game. But the key point is different servers with separated player base's. That's what Eve is. So Eve is a sharded games as the players are split over different shards. You cannot buy a ship on one shard and fly it on the other shard.

Every other space MMO I have played that is still alive is non-sharded. Eve is the only one that is sharded.



WOW!

Saman Ayan
Minmatar
Lazy.
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:46:00 - [223]
 

While you could say EVE is technically sharded, the two shards are not the same as they are on different versions (Serenity was just upgraded to Apocrypha, more than a year it was released on TQ) and are run by different companies, so you cannot just say that they are two separate servers running the same game. Unlike most MMOs, the communities for Serenity and TQ are completely seperate, with very few people actually playing on both (notably Chribba). I think that's why most people on TQ don't really consider the game sharded.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.14 15:47:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
The underlying pattern to a lot of the unresolved issues is that small(er) fixes are being delayed in favour of big(ger) changes that take more time and resources.

...

That's pretty exactly the opposite of what agile development methods like Scrum are about.
I wasn't aware pointing to this is considered to be as severe as stoning.

I fear we have misunderstood each other.

I took your posting to be critical of CCP for letting this fall through the cracks; my point was that yelling at people for making mistakes generally only ensures you don't get told about future mistakes. The CSM is more interested in making sure that procedures get put in place so that these mistakes do not happen repeatedly.

With respect to small fixes vs. large ones, one thing that several CSMs have emphasized internally, and with which I am in agreement, is that small CSM issues should not be bundled into large ones that get fixed as a single item. For example, the change to MWD/AB icons we have asked for should not be combined with other UI changes, but should be addressed as an independent item.

This is the reasoning behind the "Low Hanging Fruit" proposal I sponsored and which will be discussed at today's CSM meeting; it provides a buffet of small items that can be selected from, and is explicit that this is the expected method of implementation.

In other words, "An Item A Day Keeps The CSMs Away"

Quote:
Well while you have the web guys at hand, please have them look at issue 85 and update the forum rules section by changing two digits from 24 to 75.

I have conveyed your concerns to the appropriate dev.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.08.14 17:05:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 14/08/2010 17:05:25
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
With respect to small fixes vs. large ones, one thing that several CSMs have emphasized internally, and with which I am in agreement, is that small CSM issues should not be bundled into large ones that get fixed as a single item. For example, the change to MWD/AB icons we have asked for should not be combined with other UI changes, but should be addressed as an independent item.

IMO that is exactly what should happen.
It's pointless to bundle a lot of small things to one big task because the first thing Agile tells you is "Split big tasks into smaller ones". So doing the exact opposite before starting the "planning game" is pretty much a waste of time.

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
In other words, "An Item A Day Keeps The CSMs Away"

I could get used to that in a matter of hours... Razz

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2010.08.14 17:32:00 - [226]
 

Nareg Maxence said "Respectfully, you are wrong."
Instead of just telling me I wrong or like others calling me names, why don't you explain it?
Just telling someone they are wrong does not make you right.

A bunch of people on here don't seem to understand two copies of a game universe with two servers and two player base's is two shards. That's the very definition of what a sharded game is. How can anyone say that is not two shards.

There are lots of reasons to have two or more shards. In Eve's case its due to a law. But it's still a 2nd shard.
Telling me I am wrong without explaining why, calling me names is not going to change the fact there are two distinct shards that do not interact with each other.

The only way to say Eve is single sharded it to pretend the other shard isn't real.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.14 17:47:00 - [227]
 

Pottsey, you are trolling in what has been the most productive 'comments to a dev blog thread' in months, stealing away valuable Dev replying posts to combat you're idiotic semantic arguments.

I really hope whatever pathetic hole of a corp you call home gets dec'd because of this.

bitter vetiranarian
Posted - 2010.08.14 18:10:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: bitter vetiranarian on 14/08/2010 18:10:56
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga

So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.

You are repeating yourself.


I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.

Kingston Black
Posted - 2010.08.14 18:58:00 - [229]
 

Aww man the devs are back and have beaten some sense into the playerbase?

/emote takes pants off head

Ahh well reading the threadnaughts kept me chuckling while i waited for you guys and gals to come back from hols, i hope you all had some good ones and gl fixing it all Wink

I esp hate the traffic control while jumping through gates in 0.0 one. (you can sometime replicate it with a 'ceptor if you just jump back and fore through a gate multiple times like a looney with 20 guys sitting in each of the upgraded system ratting)

Solar Blade
Posted - 2010.08.14 19:50:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: RifterDrifter
18 Months.


man, your lagging behind.

Didn't you notice its 17 months now :P

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.08.14 19:52:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: bitter vetiranarian
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.
We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.

Xiang Jiao
Posted - 2010.08.14 20:43:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.


I am completely thrilled that we have confirmation that our best and brightest are up to the task. I will be anxiously watching your progress on Eve-o and other formus.

I have one account expiring in 2 months, another in 5 months, and the last in 6 months. I intend on moving from the yearly subscription plan to month by month PLEX because I don't have complete confidence as a customer. If I decide one day that I don't want to log in and play anymore, it's no real loss. If I see massive game improvements, then I can go back to the yearly subscription. How does CCP plan on regaining the trust of customers who have already let their accounts lapse? Are there any immediate fixes we will see before the Winter expansion?

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.08.14 20:54:00 - [233]
 

Captain's log, Day 4

We are fighting lag, this is a good fight.
We will win easily.



Captain's log, Day 54

We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.



Captain's log, Day 76

Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great.
We will win this fight very soon.



Captain's log, Day 121

We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!



Captain's log, Day 161

The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now.
Victory must be close.



Captain's log, Day 191

The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched.
We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.

GiggMaster
Forcas armadas
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:12:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Captain's log, Day 4

We are fighting lag, this is a good fight.
We will win easily.



Captain's log, Day 54

We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.



Captain's log, Day 76

Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great.
We will win this fight very soon.



Captain's log, Day 121

We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!



Captain's log, Day 161

The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now.
Victory must be close.



Captain's log, Day 191

The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched.
We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.

This!
Captain's log, Day 690

Now that we are launching Dust something and Incarna we are proud to inform we will have 25% of our dev team dedicated to fight the lag so we will win this fight shortly.
We would like to use this slot to inform you we are starting to develop another game to finish the circle between EVE/Dust/Incarna. It will take 36 months to finish this new expansion. Stay Tuned.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:25:00 - [235]
 

CCP Zulu needs to train proof-reading to V Confused

Tyby
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.14 21:49:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Tyby on 14/08/2010 21:50:27
Originally by: Ban Doga
Captain's log, Day 4

We are fighting lag, this is a good fight.
We will win easily.



Captain's log, Day 54

We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.



Captain's log, Day 76

Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great.
We will win this fight very soon.



Captain's log, Day 121

We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!



Captain's log, Day 161

The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now.
Victory must be close.



Captain's log, Day 191

The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched.
We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.


lol, and i was told "our logs show nothing"... Laughing
also, waiting for captain's log, day 281...

bitter vetiranarian
Posted - 2010.08.14 22:19:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: bitter vetiranarian
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.
We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.


Are you sure you don't need another few weeks off? I'm worried about you guys, fighting the lag monster can be tough. Want a red bull? It'll give you wings.

Cinori Aluben
Minmatar
Gladiators of Rage
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2010.08.15 00:12:00 - [238]
 

Three quotes of note:

Quote:
It's a constant, slow battle
Slow is exactly the problem unfortunately. A bit too slow per the player response, and per previous promises.

Quote:
...as we know how powerful and unique an experience a 1000+ player fleet fight can truly be...
Finally you admit to this once being feasible and 'working as intended.'

Quote:
hope you realize we will be throwing every last thing we've got at the terrible, multi-ship fleet known as lag.
Does that mean you are indeed reprioritizing your dev team allocation from the last devblog?

Btw this article should have been named "We're STILL aware of the problem." See previous devblog and comments.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2010.08.15 02:41:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Nareg Maxence said "Respectfully, you are wrong."
Instead of just telling me I wrong or like others calling me names, why don't you explain it?
Just telling someone they are wrong does not make you right.

A bunch of people on here don't seem to understand two copies of a game universe with two servers and two player base's is two shards. That's the very definition of what a sharded game is. How can anyone say that is not two shards.

There are lots of reasons to have two or more shards. In Eve's case its due to a law. But it's still a 2nd shard.
Telling me I am wrong without explaining why, calling me names is not going to change the fact there are two distinct shards that do not interact with each other.

The only way to say Eve is single sharded it to pretend the other shard isn't real.


When you log into EVE, do you have the option to choose a different server than TQ? Installing a Sisi client doesn't count, because Sisi is *not* part of the TQ universe. You cannot log onto Serenity unless you're chinese, who cannot log into TQ.

For everybody in the world aside from the Chinese, there is only one real shard. For the Chinese, there is only one shard.

It's all semantics at this point. When I log into EVE, I have no choice but to log into the one and only shard available, which makes it a single sharded universe. I don't get to choose multiple universes to join, just one. You feel that it isn't true, when it is in this regard.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2010.08.15 04:16:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/08/2010 04:18:15
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/08/2010 04:17:38
O god I cant belive I'm about to do this.

But Pottsey's right. There are two shards 1 for China and 1 for everybody alse.

I would stand behind CCP's claim of 1 shard as I personly see it as 1 shard becouse if China let CCP they would have all the world on one shard in 1/2 a heart beat. That is CCP's goal and I hope one day China pulls there heads out of there ars and joins the rest of the world.ugh

Edit: Or I should say China's Ruling Class lets there people join the world.



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