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Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:46:00 - [151]
 

CCP PR: The subscribers are really hounding us on our broken promises. Wonder how we can get out of this one?
Random guy in the back of the room: Perhaps we can make an announcement that we're still planning on announcing how we plan to deal with it. In fact, we should make it a promise.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:48:00 - [152]
 

Ahem... I know of February fixes. It would just be that... player feedback and some back from dead supercaps would disagree that they fixed much.

I'd really like this game to work, so I making a strange mix of sad and 101% sarcastic face atm writing this.

Either every 0.0 player is delusional and "It almost worked fine pre Dominion" is a false belief, or all the previous fixes haven't fixed enough of performance decreasing code.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:58:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: CCP Explorer
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:

The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.

CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not?
We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started.
This is the clearest answer to the blackscreening that we've had until now.

This is kind of melodramatic, but saying you simply don't know, while a painful admission, gets us all on a clearer footing. We know what we're dealing with and then can go on from there. It won't get you forever, but it will definitely help.

P.S. In the mass-testing blog, do you think you will be able to describe the procedures you're using to debug the lag problem? I know that it opens you to criticism, but the criticism won't be any worse than you've faced recently, and above all, if you listen to inputs from some of the players who are employed in the field, you may get some valuable ideas.

It may even be related to the desync or the sticking-at-jump-gate issues that plague a number of players, you never know. This last one happened to me tonight, for example in losec, for example. I get the feeling that a session change request is sent and confirmation that the session is about to change is received but that the new information (system, grid) is never sent, or not received. It reminds me of UDP issues on certain older software that I vaguely remember.

Dr Lebroi
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:59:00 - [154]
 

This is very good, thanks to the devs who have posted. It's interesting to note that there has been misundestanding between CCP, CSM and the players due to our differing interpretation of common phrases.

In future when CCP uses a word like 'polish' or 'quality', please provide a clear definition of how you intepret it within the company. There is no advantage to all the interested parties being at cross purposes. It confuses the hell out of us, makes us think we are being ignored or patronised and means you get garbled feedback that cannot help you in your quest to deliver the gameplay experience that we all know you want to.

So sure, we have different nomenclature and that's always a great way to misunderstand each other. Polish for me is a team working on a feature and then iterating on it and incorporating feedback based on testing. It has nothing to do with bugs, because we call that bugfixing.

Solid effort CCP - many thanks.

T'san Manaan
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:00:00 - [155]
 

CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev. Im glad to see some back and forth between the Devs and the playerbase that isn't a one way whine fest.

Keep up the communication.

And remember the only reason the debates get so heated is because everyone involved loves this game and wants to see it do great.

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:10:00 - [156]
 

Oveur in this thread is a huge improvement over the PR fiasco the forums have been over the past few weeks, however I have still not seen anything that indicates that things are going to change.

Maybe after it becomes possible to have a good lag free fleet fight
and 0.0 sov mechanics are fixed to where they encourage game play that is fun.
and the next CSM minutes indicates that the Devs are paying attention.

Maybe then I will trust you enough to hit that button to resub my accounts. For now, I no longer trust CCP at its word. I will wait for action.






Swidgen
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:10:00 - [157]
 

This is easily the best devblog and discussion thread I've ever seen on here in the (almost) year since I started playing.

Originally by: Quesa
To say that Apoc code is what's causing the server performance dump may be true. However, to state that Dominion code had nothing to do with it is disingenuous because it was a very abrupt change when Dominion was released.
There has to be a cause and effect relationship there, I agree. And don't forget (which many seem to do) that a week or two before Dominion was released last December, CCP did some sort of a database upgrade. I remember thinking that was a phenomenally dumb thing to do so close to the release of a new expansion. It resulted, if I remember correctly, in an unplanned extended downtime when it happened. Wherever Microsoft products are involved I would not rule them out as the potential cause of any new problems observed soon thereafter. (My pet CT: CCP knows for a fact that the MS SQL upgrade is the cause of TL and is handcuffed at this point because going back to an older version is not an option.)

StacklessIO

CCP originally intended to release StacklessIO as open source. Some of the shiny slide presentations done by CCP at various gatherings say it will be released "soon". The thing is, they've been saying that for over a year and nothing has been released yet. When will that happen? The fact that it hasn't been released yet could be telling in terms of how good (or bad) it actually is, and therefore a potential contributor to TL (The Lag).

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:12:00 - [158]
 


Oveur for ****ing president, to be quite honest.

Very Happy


Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:19:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur


We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.

Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.



Thank you so very much for this statement!

Let the whiners and haters eat DUST (he he).

EVE is the best game I ever played. - There is nothing more to say.

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:23:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Verone

Oveur for ****ing president, to be quite honest.

Very Happy




Finally, internet trolls rebuked with internet wit.

All the drama makes me so giddy.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:34:00 - [161]
 

Quote:
CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev


This has been one of the dudes over the years to always come and answer the questions.


CCP, a little hint for you - This is better money spent than whatever you gave that PR company man, you should know that by now, we get ****ed, one of the "old guys" shows up, talks for a while, we calm down, (you go back to ignoring us :smug:) and life goes on.

Seriously, fire the PR company.

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:47:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Quote:
CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev


This has been one of the dudes over the years to always come and answer the questions.


CCP, a little hint for you - This is better money spent than whatever you gave that PR company man, you should know that by now, we get ****ed, one of the "old guys" shows up, talks for a while, we calm down, (you go back to ignoring us :smug:) and life goes on.

Seriously, fire the PR company.

Wait, what PR company? As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)

However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:58:00 - [163]
 

When the thread bomb went off, and the news media picked it up, CCP released a statement, the issuer of which was traced back to a PR Company.

The Statement was also terribly worded, and flew in the face of everything that had been put in print for players eyes preceding the press releases posting.

Basically, they made a bad situation worse.

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:15:00 - [164]
 

I've seen some terrible PR handling in my time, and vacation or no vacation, but CCP has been keeping me fascinated with the utter ineptitude this last month handling the 'Fallout' (pun intended).

Now, as always, let me state that I love CCP Embarassed

That said, even tough manically attractive and charismatic, Nathan has not convinced me CCP means business with regard to overhauling the game instead of adding more pointless features.
But then I'm a retired and disillusioned faction war veteran. I've also spent enough time in all aspects of this game to see where the walls are hanging together with duct tape and large parts of the roof are open the elements.
Your words have lost force when faced with the lack of action for so long.

Blogs and fighting the lag is all very nice, but I hope this game will get some serious makeover work before more Sims, Vampires or Farmville features are welded on.

Raneru
Combat and Recon
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:39:00 - [165]
 

/me hands Oveur an upside down bottle of water.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:42:00 - [166]
 

I just wanna say it's nice to have you guys back from vacation Very Happy

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:54:00 - [167]
 

This was an awesome and much needed communication with the player-base. Oveur has always been an intellectual force to be reckoned with (and witty, to boot), it's great to see him posting here in this manner.


Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:55:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Polish for me is a team working on a feature and then iterating on it and incorporating feedback based on testing. It has nothing to do with bugs, because we call that bugfixing. The Apocrypha feature teams had no teams for polish because we were neck deep in bugfixing and I'm pretty sure any of our game designers will come here and tell you that they had no time for polish.

But again, I and everybody else, love Apocrypha. We're still not going to cram this many features into an expansion because we want more time for polish and iteration.

That's why I disagreed with the CSM that we weren't striving for Excellence. We still are, we don't believe we're there yet - in fact I think we'll never believe we'll get there because if we do, I'm sure we'll find ways to do even better.

That's how CCP was born. We didn't give up despite running out of money, despite our launch being bug- and lagfest of epic proportions. We kept on developing, making it better, more expansions. And we believe this is why we're here today. Because we stick to our game, we keep on developing it and we care about it. It's why the others died and we're still here after 7 years and still growing. I'm fine with us disagreeing whether we have achieved it or not, only way for us to show it is by delivering a better experience. Talk is cheap. But I most certainly will not agree with anyone that we don't try.



You definitely have a way with words, you know what to say (to convince me anyway) but unfortunately the key part of all of this is that talk is cheap, and we're waiting, have been waiting, and this whole rage lately is all about lack of patience for waiting. The lag doesn't even affect me very much, but everything else that is buggy and/or lacking in polish sure does. We're talking years old issues here man.


MARS VICTOR
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:29:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: MARS VICTOR on 14/08/2010 01:30:57
Originally by: Stick Cult
As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)

However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.


No, really, it was not out of context. They had loads of time to react to it, several devs played fire-control, even hilmar felt he had to add something. If it would have been out of context, they'd have said it was. They did not do that but instead were trying to calm the rage by sweet-talking about that there's still 20% of "free-time" outside of the set goals. They admited over and over again, that the focus is just as what it looks like and that other neccessary things will only be fixed, when they got the time to spare.

It'sreally worth reading the CSM Meeting Minutes, the various Dev Feedback posts, etc.

Madner Kami
Gallente
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:35:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: Stick Cult
As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)

However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.


No, really, it was not out of context. They had loads of time to react to it, several devs played fire-control, even hilmar felt he had to add something. If it would have been out of context, they'd have said it was. They did not do that but instead were trying to calm the rage by sweet-talking about that there's still 20% of "free-time" outside of the set goals. They admited over and over again, that the focus is just as what it looks like and that other neccessary things will only be fixed, when they got the time to spare.


That looks oddly familiar Shocked

Celia Therone
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:37:00 - [171]
 

Why don't you have a team dedicated to balance? It doesn't have to be a big team or even a full time team but this is your core game play and you aren't taking care of it.

Why don't you have a team dedicated to polish? I understand the 20% bug fixing but who spends that 20% on fixing cosmos, faction war or pos? When they're fixing stuff are they fixing what upsets your customers or what's at the top of their defect list?

2-3 developers on each (<2% of Apocrypha's team) working with the CSM could really help you with player relations and making Eve a better game to play.

MARS VICTOR
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:43:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Madner Kami


That looks oddly familiar Shocked


I know, oops, but I just got up here, no coffee yet, and that post pretty much said it as it should be said. When I saw that other post, something snapped and I just threw that in. Cause well, it sums it up.

Madner Kami
Gallente
Durendal Ascending
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2010.08.14 01:46:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Madner Kami on 14/08/2010 01:47:28
Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: Madner Kami


That looks oddly familiar Shocked


I know, oops, but I just got up here, no coffee yet, and that post pretty much said it as it should be said. When I saw that other post, something snapped and I just threw that in. Cause well, it sums it up.



It's ok, no worries. I stand by my words, no matter if I write/say them or someone else quotes me. So thanks for doing it for me Wink

/me prepares a lawsuit, in proper silence

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2010.08.14 03:19:00 - [174]
 

This thread brought a tear to my eye. It's almost like 2004 and 2005 again with dev posts left and right and Oveur telling it like it is and refusing to mince words. Now all it needs is TomB verbally laying the smacketh down and Hammer posting about boobies, and all will be well. Cool

To my shame, I can be as reactionary as everyone else, but it's absolutely awesome seeing the lead devs posting again to lay our fears about EVE's future to rest.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.14 03:32:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: iP0D on 14/08/2010 03:33:15
Originally by: Wrayeth
This thread brought a tear to my eye. It's almost like 2004 and 2005 again with dev posts left and right and Oveur telling it like it is and refusing to mince words. Now all it needs is TomB verbally laying the smacketh down and Hammer posting about boobies, and all will be well. Cool

To my shame, I can be as reactionary as everyone else, but it's absolutely awesome seeing the lead devs posting again to lay our fears about EVE's future to rest.


It's nice, yes. Encouraging, definately. But ultimately when you look at the timelines, the actions and inactions, no chit chat like in old days will change anything. On the contrary, it can make things easily worse.

It's good to see communication, and it is good to see it is stuff firmly with feet on the ground, and NOT the beer talk which is nice to socialise but which does absolutely nothing for addressing the current challenges. Sure, I miss those days as well, but they were different days, they're a business now man, with not just a single flagship product but soon multiple ones.

So, I'm looking forward to seeing actions, results, visbility of. Instead of well, empty talk. Sofar, it looks like it can go the right way, let's see how it goes. Booze, after work, and in measure. And no whitelining.


Trygonus
Posted - 2010.08.14 03:42:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.


If I add you to my Facebook will you respawn my super cap fleet when I lose it due to arrogance too?

That whole magical ghost cap fleet that showed up after downtime with NC ready to hop in them was utter favoritism bull**** and you know it! I'll never forgive you for that CCP. Mad

Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2010.08.14 03:57:00 - [177]
 

You guys should read/post on the facebook group (not spacebook). Lots of angry PR generation going on there..quite funny to read.

Oh, and more sexy in depth posts about semaphores and race conditions and the rest. Your game has more software engineers in it than any other MMO. We thrive on the jargon filled blogs :-) (PS, we'll translate for anyone who isn't a programmer)

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 04:01:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.

1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.

2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.

3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this.


The next time I log in I'm sending you so ISK for reminding me not to feed the trolls and for summing up very clearly the problem some people seem to have in interpreting dev blogs and forum posts here.

Look people, if you're just going to insert whatever facts you want into the dev's words then why are you even posting to respond to them? If you're not going to believe what the devs are writing then there's no point to even reading their posts let alone responding.

Agiosgeogios
Posted - 2010.08.14 04:02:00 - [179]
 

Oveur to the rescue <3

We missed you mate.

Now please clean up the mess i have faith in you Embarassed

Razzor Death
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.14 04:11:00 - [180]
 

But have you tried restarting the router ?


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


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