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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:40:00 - [121]
 

A cross post of this thread was locked and we were instructed to post here instead.




Mine went like:

====================================================================
"Eternum holds up pitch fork!!




"Rabble-rabble-rabble-senselessly-rabble!!!!"

====================================================================





Ok, now you are all caught up. You may commence.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.08.13 20:41:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:

The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.

CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.

More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Yet all this didn't fix "the lag". So maybe those bugs aren't the "big ones" that cause it.
If you read carefully then some of these fixes haven't been deployed to TQ yet so they haven't fixed lag yet. One was also only deployed yesterday so it will be interesting to see what happens this weekend. But, yes, there is more and we are actively looking for it.
Originally by: Ban Doga
You appear so desperately to attribute "the lag" to things before Dominion and try to back that up with a lot of bug fixes to older code. But do you realise this also means those bug fixes did not fix the problem? Further more Apocrypha (the last expansion before Dominion) was perceived as the expansion with the biggest performance boost, so it's kinda hard to believe you when you say "lag started before well before Dominion".
I answered this earlier in this thread.

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:47:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Stick Cult on 13/08/2010 20:47:26
It's ok CCP Oveur and Explorer, I still love you. That goes for the rest of CCP too, and always will until you guys turn off the servers. Then that love will be converted into hate and rage. YARRRR!!

edit: I, too, look forward to any and all devblogs posted on the matter of lag and bugfixes.

Midge Mo'yb
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:05:00 - [124]
 

ouver in thread = best thread

ouver forum trolling is ace and we get infos

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:16:00 - [125]
 

This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.

1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.

2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.

3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this.

alittlebirdy
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:19:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur

Originally by: Doof Hardcastle
so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how sh¡t you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.


Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.

Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.

But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.



Wait, are you trying to say we should be OMFG thankful you spend 20% of some kinda time fixing bugs YOU coded in (ya I understand what a bug is, it’s not “let’s change this and make this bug we can fix later”) and now 9months later… are “really” working on the lag…

Maybe made in china aint the problem the people making the sh¡t think we should just be happy we have something that does not even work properly.

Guess what, go look up a b-52, that planes been in service for something like 60 years… and Boeing keeps making upgrades for it because, OMFG it makes them money. Does eve 7 years later make you money? Then HTFU and fix it and don’t point out you spend time doing that. I don’t care if it is a plane, a MMO, dog food, if the sh¡t makes you money; you keep the people PAYING you happy with bug fixs and new upgrades IN DUE TIME.

Expansions every 6months were also noted, well maybe in 7 years… once every 6 has become too much work for the amount of people on hand, and it is time to evolve (or die) and change to 8, 10, 12 months, and/or devote OVER 20% to fixing bugs. Guess what, I don’t tell friends to join eve because of expansions every 6 months over 12…(the word FREE is the big word in “free expansions every X months” not the X) I tell them DO NOT JOIN because I don’t want to explain why I am telling em to spend money on a game that the graphics are screwed on (cats anyone?) and has bugs left and right! You pointed out that Apocrypha was the worst exp you put out… and you are still cleaning up after it, EVEN MORE REASON TO DROP THE 6MONTH TIME LINE. Apocrypha sold well because of what it added, bugs aside, and expected, at least for me. Everything you guys say just proves you are trying to run a unreal time table and need to change, yet refuse to and just want to push out more and more sh¡t because the new sh¡t sells better than a working game.

You also fail in saying that dominion was not the “cause” of the lag, it was obviously “the straw that broke the camel’s back” then to put out ANOTHER expansion… is a royal slap in the face. How many more before the lag is fixed? Gona be a year soon,

How’s this as well ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Ya a lot of people want a “dev blog” I want RESULTS, most of us know how this works, I sure as hell do customer calls up to complain they aint got their car yet “yep we are working on it” shuts up the annoying customer that does not understand, they aint the only person with a car, and their issue is not easy. What’s “we are working on it” hoods open, and that’s about it… That might have worked a month after the issue, 9 later, no sorry. And I’ve done programming and I’ve had to debug my work, and it took forever for “stupid” mistakes… I understand you have omfg lines of code but it never took me 9 months to just be like “ya hey guys… well it turns out just throwing sh¡t out the door every 6 months and kinda turned into this mountain of sh¡t that has well, it hit a BIG fan… so I’m working on it”

And don't get me wrong, I never thought I'd sub to a MMO till I played eve I liked (likED) it that much.

Undertow Latheus
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:21:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".

And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.

Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies Wink


Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?

Update your Bio Info please!


I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.


"The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features" - Nathan Richardsson

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:23:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur
excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long


Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?

Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.

Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..


How do you suggest these persons comment on what I said in a meeting and clarify that, which they weren't in or didn't hear?

You might also want to read my other comments on the blogs. I just stated that the only way to fix lag is by fixing it. I'm not trying any jedi mind tricks or smoke and mirrors. The lag will go, you will notice it and that's when we've proved that we put a lot of effort into it.

Well, cya all - I'm very late for dinner now.
One thing that seriously puzzles me is the mass testing. It's been going on for about 8 months and yet, if I understand you correctly, you haven't found out what is causing the lag that (re)appeared after Dominion? 8 months to find a bug like that, even if it very complex code, seems terribly, terribly long.

Do you think you can give us a realistic assessment of when the bug could be found, taking into account all that you have looked at so far?

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:25:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur
excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long


Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?

Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.

Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..


How do you suggest these persons comment on what I said in a meeting and clarify that, which they weren't in or didn't hear?

You might also want to read my other comments on the blogs. I just stated that the only way to fix lag is by fixing it. I'm not trying any jedi mind tricks or smoke and mirrors. The lag will go, you will notice it and that's when we've proved that we put a lot of effort into it.

Well, cya all - I'm very late for dinner now.
One thing that seriously puzzles me is the mass testing. It's been going on for about 8 months and yet, if I understand you correctly, you haven't found out what is causing the lag that (re)appeared after Dominion? 8 months to find a bug like that, even if it very complex code, seems terribly, terribly long.

Do you think you can give us a realistic assessment of when the bug could be found, taking into account all that you have looked at so far?

To be fair, there is a blog coming up detailing the mass tests.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:26:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.

1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.

2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.

3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this.


QFT

CCP, thanks for the update.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:30:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur

We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.

Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.



Thank you for spending so much of your time replying to me. I do appreciate it. Obviously we have different perspectives on identical goal: to have the best EVE possible.

I'll leave it with this: you have a really, really valuable resource in the CSM. Particularly this CSM. It's not a question of being "right" or "wrong", it's a question of different perspectives. That's the common theme that has run through this whole furore. You really need that alternative perspective, because - as you imply with your "heads down" phrase - you guys have kind of lost touch with us somewhere along the way. You really need that alternative perspective to get it back.

I know that the CSM are going to say things you wont like hearing, and they're going to have an interpretation of the things you guys say that might not accord with your own, and it's going to be hard work, but please dont succumb to the temptation to sideline or ignore them. And most especially dont hold back on communicating with them because you're worried about the rest of us not liking what you say. That's only successful in avoiding bad feeling in the very short term.
I'm just quoting this post because I think it is so important. I am pretty sure that the player rage in the last month is what prompted this dev blog(s) and thread, and I do understand face-saving measures, because lookinng weak in front of your customers is no good thing, but the fact that you have started a two-way conversation with us is what will get you the most sympathy and understanding, and above all, patience until you finally figure out what happened to the code after Dominion.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:30:00 - [132]
 

CCP guys, the CSM are your key to achieving a high signal to noise ratio.

They dig through and filter out much of the trolling you'll get going through an average forum thread, they are invaluable in this respect.


ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:32:00 - [133]
 

Good to see you back posting in a eve thread Oveur, it actually gives me some hope for eve againYARRRR!!

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:40:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 13/08/2010 22:01:11
Originally by: CCP Explorer
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:

The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.

CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.

The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not? So it took respecively 1, 2 and 3-4 months to fix each of these Dominion issues. And the fights back in April/May really were very playable. (Although obviously you had plenty of people who'd either quit playing or quit bothering with fleet fights that were still whining then about their experiences from a few months before).

*Then* (and this is the important bit completely missing from your post) you deployed Tyrannis and a whole load of new lag related problems surfaced, and the game was even less playable than immediately after Dominion.

Apocrypha of course had a month [edit: a week sorry] of us not being able to jump fleets through gates.

We can appreciate mistakes happen and lag is a tough issue in general, but pushing out (allliance warfare)game-breaking expansions relentlessly every six months with the mess then taking 1-4 months to clear up leaves the players pretty weary. The worrying thing is as Oveur said Tyrannis was basically just two features, and only one of those really ingame and *still* it was a huge problem. Please, please try to keep this in mind as you come up toward the winter expansion.


Originally by: CCP Oveur
20% spent on fixing stuff

I'm with you in your obvious love for the number 20. It really is a great number, the evenness of the number 2 mixed gently with the roundness of the number 10. It's importance in life is underrated too I'd say. I'm proud to have 20 fingers and toes and did you know most of had 20 milk teeth? 20 is also the first Primitive abundant number.

But when you spend 20% of your time fixing stuff and there's still so much left to fix, maybe it's time to embrace the number 30? (I know I know, but there are worse numbers).

Dipluz
Caldari
Notorious Legion
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:40:00 - [135]
 

on damn time they take playerbase serious, before it gets more media attention YARRRR!!

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:41:00 - [136]
 

I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.

Lanu
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:47:00 - [137]
 

Oh how I love Oveur Embarassed.

Looking forward to the techblogs!!

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:47:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.


You might try reading, slowly, the thread again.

Here are the high points that you missed.

1: What they have discovered, and how they discovered it, will be laid bare in a number of upcoming dev blogs.
2: Work on testing, and developing fixes, has never stopped. Nor will it in the forseeable future.
3: The last fix was deployed yesterday and is being evaluated, more are in the pipeline.
4: Lag issues cause by Dominion have been addressed, the issues actually go far deeper than that.


Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:50:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Stick Cult on 13/08/2010 21:50:49
Originally by: Blazde
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not? So it took respecively 1, 2 and 3-4 months to fix each of these Dominion issues. And the fights back in April/May really were very playable. (Although obviously you had plenty of people who'd either quit playing or quit bothering with fleet fights that were still whining then about their experiences from a few months before).

*Then* (and this is the important bit completely missing from your post) you deployed Tyrannis and a whole load of new lag related problems surfaced, and the game was even less playable than immediately after Dominion.

Apocrypha of course had a month of us not being able to jump fleets through gates.

We can appreciate mistakes happen and lag is a tough issue in general, but pushing out (allliance warfare)game-breaking expansions relentlessly every six months with the mess then taking 1-4 months to clear up leaves the players pretty weary. The worrying thing is as Oveur said Tyrannis was basically just two features, and only one of those really ingame and *still* it was a huge problem. Please, please try to keep this in mind as you come up toward the winter expansion.

Fixing bugs or lag isn't simply an "lol look at this typo, bro!" and fixing it. You have to research the problem to find out wtf the problem actually is first. Then you have to figure out a way to fix it, implement that fix, and test it to see if it worked. It most likely didn't work, so head back to step 1 and start over again. If you have 5 big issues, yea, it'll take a few months to fix them all.

As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix. (for some reason, Apocypha 1.0.1 (build 84609) patch notes are gone) But it wasn't fixed in 1.0.2, which was 2 weeks after 1.0, and the next patch was a month after that. I KNOW it didn't take a month to fix, as I recall they fixed it in a few days, and waited for Patch Tuesday™ to deploy in version 1.0.1.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.08.13 21:56:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: CCP Explorer
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:

The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.

CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not?
We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started.

zz01shagsme
Posted - 2010.08.13 21:58:00 - [141]
 

/me is a lot more happy now.

That is all it took, some communication!


CCP Explorer

Posted - 2010.08.13 22:00:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.
Please read the dev blog again and this reply as well.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:08:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Stick Cult
As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix.

You're right it was 1 week, my bad (there's a timeline in a devlog). It felt like a month! To replace that point I'll just mention the constant desyncing that was introduced in Revelations 2 ( http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=549542 ) and took ~24 months to fix. Point is it's not enough to 'fix lag/etc' even if it's been worked on really really hard, it also needs to all stay fixed.

JasonKuehn
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:15:00 - [144]
 

I just want to say that, regardless of what happens...

IT IS REALLY NICE TO FINALLY HAVE SOME COMMUNICATION!!

Just the fact that the gags finally came off and you guys are here answering questions is a huge relief. It makes us feel like you care.

I was seriously planning to cancel my two subscriptions this week having given up on this game becoming fun again. Hearing that you guys might actually care makes me willing to reconsider.

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:17:00 - [145]
 

Very nice. Love all the CCP posts. Communication is so key for MMOs.

Stick Cult
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:18:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: Stick Cult
As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix.

You're right it was 1 week, my bad (there's a timeline in a devlog). It felt like a month!

Very true... Very Happy

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:20:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Grath Telkin on 13/08/2010 22:20:03
Can you tell us why SBU's have been broken* for coming up on 9 months with no fix, and no punishment for the people that abuse the broken mechanic?

(*Define Broken = For the past 9 months SBU's are able to be shot while still reading invulnerable. SBU's destroyed in this way are simply reimbursed, and the offending parties that shoot them are not punished, as it is STILL not classified as an exploit. Its actually happening as I make this post by Atlas pilots around EUU, who know full well that its a bug, that they are exploiting, thus by definition its an exploit, needing to be fixed)


This is a vital central mechanic of SOV warfare, that is totally stagnating 0.0 right now, everybody knows about the bug, and every entrenched entity just shoots the damn things, so making head way requires 23 hour a day baby sitting of the SBU's.

okst666
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:24:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: okst666 on 13/08/2010 22:32:48
Whats an SBU?
Since I (and I think most of the playerbase) does not know what SBU or SOV is, it can't be a big issue.

k...i investigated about the issue...well I like it, because it holds most of you pew pew guys away from shooting us carebears.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:34:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: okst666
Whats an SBU?
Since I (and I think most of the playerbase) does not know what SBU or SOV is, it can't be a big issue.



Then good sir I would advise you to spend some time reading over the works people have spent time and energy entering into the great EVE Wiki

Typhena
Forcas armadas
Moon Warriors
Posted - 2010.08.13 22:41:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Typhena on 13/08/2010 22:44:03
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Beginning Monday, August 16, we will be publishing a series of blogs outlining our initiative to tackle the infamous lag monster. CCP Zulu's newest blog provides us with a look at what's in store.


I know I will sound skeptic but I would prefer to see some results (and not devblogs) before I reactivate my account. I am tired of blah blah.
Doesn't matter if it was Apoc, Dominion or Exodus .. game was better and now it has been really hard to play.

Cheers,


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