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iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:19:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.

It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?

Originally by: CCP Oveur
I should probably turn this into a blog.

Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes Very Happy y'all gave us).

Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.


CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 17:25:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.

It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?

Originally by: CCP Oveur
I should probably turn this into a blog.

Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes Very Happy y'all gave us).

Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.



Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.

Or he stalks me.

I guess it's mutual Wink

Elsa Nietzsche
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:28:00 - [33]
 

semaphores are sexy
please make more dev blogs with this kind of dirty talk

Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 - [34]
 

Thank God on coordinated devbloging.

+rep

Ban Doga
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

We deliver expansions every 6 months. The winter expansion is being planned on Monday and includes improvements, fixes, content and new features, including quite a few of the stuff listed on the Evelopedia prioritized list. We also spend 20% of the time fixing stuff, as one does.

The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.

The winter expansion in 2011, and this is where the 18 months comes is, has a major theme change. Improvements, fixes. Not so much new features. Still 20% fixing. Because from there on and for the foreseeable future, we will be improving all the stuff we already have.

That's why I said "no new features". Everyone is working on improving what we already got. And there is so much we already have that it'll probably keep us busy for more than a year revisiting features.

And that's delivered in winter 2011.


And it took you a whole month to say that?
And no one else could have said that while you were away? (an employee needs his vacation, no argument about that!)
And no one else saw the meetings minutes and thought "Hey, that does not sound like what we said we would to do"?

I'm not sure this all adds up to a nice consistent story...

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: iP0D on 13/08/2010 17:41:26

Originally by: CCP Oveur

Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.

Or he stalks me.

I guess it's mutual Wink



I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.

Process mistakes can happen, maybe something good will come out of it, like CSM being able to fill its definition and the challenge that has been thrown at them, I do think it is an interesting potential to build with, and on. Reading the CSM Minutes, this pass through mechanism of a championship on topis, sure, but for communication and workflow that doesn't work well - traditionally in these processes of internalising stakeholder processes for agile systems in immersive market / product development. Btw, Facebook isn't for business Laughing

Just curious on the kids part .. do they mine? We didn't eh waste anye of them by mistake during Hulkageddon did we? Very Happy

As or the eh stalking, crossdressing isn't that disturbing Cool New Orleans party will be ... interesting ...


Astomichi
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:37:00 - [37]
 

Sounds pretty good, but I'll believe it when I see the fleet battles sans lag.

Buzz Aldrino
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:44:00 - [38]
 

Great to see some blogs again and thanks for the insights oveur. Is there any chance twell get to ehar what you plan on working besides lag improvements?

Axemaster
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:50:00 - [39]
 

Finally! Thank you CCP!

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:53:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2010 17:59:59
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.

It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?

Originally by: CCP Oveur
I should probably turn this into a blog.

Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes Very Happy y'all gave us).

Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.



Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.

Or he stalks me.

I guess it's mutual Wink



May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?

PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:03:00 - [41]
 

Four blogs on how hard you are working to fix lag. It's kind of an admission you have not been able to find what you messed up and are throwing numbers at us in an attempt to impress.

Like this:

Quote:
It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.


When your achievements are so few it's not a good thing to start bragging how many people are involved in doing so little. It just makes things look worse.

krickettt
Golden Orb Technology inc
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:04:00 - [42]
 

Very good news!

CCP Oveur, I <3 you. I feel better now. =D

mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:07:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu
We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.



Wrong, Dominion.

Aurora Robotnik
Caldari
Ghosts of CKSSA
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:07:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published


Dude.... you and your colleagues really need to get over whatever happened with the CSM minutes. It's in the past, get over it. You're making the threadnaught about some Kestrel look mature in comparison :P

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:10:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
So here we are. Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.


We will like it. Eve players are a pretty technically savvy and curious bunch, after all.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better ... I should probably turn this into a blog.


Yes...please do--and while you're at it, why not use it as an opportunity to work with the CSM on that? As I've stated before, we sit in the interesting position of representing players but also collaborating with and advising CCP about the things that concern the community.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation.


*loves feisty conversation, too* Hopefully "everyone" means CSM, too. CCP's apparent lack of process often leaves me mystified. It's kinda crazy that two years into the CSM adventure, we still have to push CCP constantly to engage in basic business processes that will enable more productive collaboration and communications. But hey...there has been *some* progress and little steps are better than none at all.


CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:10:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: iP0D

I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.



This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:12:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

We deliver expansions every 6 months. The winter expansion is being planned on Monday and includes improvements, fixes, content and new features, including quite a few of the stuff listed on the Evelopedia prioritized list. We also spend 20% of the time fixing stuff, as one does.

The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.

The winter expansion in 2011, and this is where the 18 months comes is, has a major theme change. Improvements, fixes. Not so much new features. Still 20% fixing. Because from there on and for the foreseeable future, we will be improving all the stuff we already have.

That's why I said "no new features". Everyone is working on improving what we already got. And there is so much we already have that it'll probably keep us busy for more than a year revisiting features.

And that's delivered in winter 2011.


And it took you a whole month to say that?
And no one else could have said that while you were away? (an employee needs his vacation, no argument about that!)
And no one else saw the meetings minutes and thought "Hey, that does not sound like what we said we would to do"?

I'm not sure this all adds up to a nice consistent story...

Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".

And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.

Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies Wink

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:14:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D

I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.



This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.


To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.


CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:16:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Astomichi
Sounds pretty good, but I'll believe it when I see the fleet battles sans lag.

I'm not trying to tell you it has worked or going to work.

I'm showing you what we're doing to find out what is causing it all, showing you what tools we have and showing you our plans.

The only way to tell you that lag has gone away, is by lag going away.

Unless you're a certain information minister for a recently invaded country.

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:18:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur
Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".

And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.

Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies Wink


Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?

Update your Bio Info please!

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:21:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Darth Vapour
Four blogs on how hard you are working to fix lag. It's kind of an admission you have not been able to find what you messed up and are throwing numbers at us in an attempt to impress.

Like this:

Quote:
It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.


When your achievements are so few it's not a good thing to start bragging how many people are involved in doing so little. It just makes things look worse.


They actually aren't on how hard we're working. It's showing how we're doing it.

And you are absolutely right, we haven't been able to find everything that is causing lag today. Because that's kind of how it works. You spend tons of time investigating till you find out what's wrong and then first, can you actually fix it Wink

Also very sorry that you think I look worse. I'm not sure how else to explain to you than with numbers our commitment. Interpretive dance perhaps?

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:22:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D

I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.



This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.


To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.




I just thought, since there was such a visible divide in value ttached to metrics versus value attached to other business elements and processes (aside of the procedural oops moments) it would be a good idea for Oveur and CSM to tackle this one together.

You know, the technical stuff is just one side of it all. And while often correct and always valuable, it is just one part of what constitutes both the immersion and the business.

The CSM Meeting Minutes showed quite clear where value elements are assigned, the current situation shows quite clearly how that makes people uncomfortable, so why not stick Oveur and CSM in a virtual room and combine the perspectives so that we players can get some comfort of seeing that EVE and CCP are not going to end up like Catalyst portfolio pieces (common / ordinary companies versus being different). It's that side of CCP and EVE which has been a huge factor in getting it where they are today.

So, why not shack up, put some heads together. Who knows what milkshake you'll come up with, but at least it will show folks in EVE and outside of EVE that this ain't just another game. That it's worth sticking around, because the perspectives are shared, and so are the dream and the challenges alike.


Taudia
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:23:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Aurora Robotnik

Dude.... you and your colleagues really need to get over whatever happened with the CSM minutes. It's in the past, get over it. You're making the threadnaught about some Kestrel look mature in comparison :P


Very wrong - some very serious questions were posed in that thread and had before this thread yet to be answered. Leaving it would leave many players to assume the worst, as literally nothing had been heard from CCP about some of these issues, the "nothing in 18 months" thing being one of the chief concerns.

Thank you for the upcoming blogs in advance, CCP - I am sure they will be interesting.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu
We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.



Wrong, Dominion.


That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:30:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2010 17:59:59
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.

It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.

Originally by: CCP Oveur
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.

Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?

Originally by: CCP Oveur
I should probably turn this into a blog.

Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes Very Happy y'all gave us).

Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.



Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.

Or he stalks me.

I guess it's mutual Wink



May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?

PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.

Of course, the whole point of meeting minutes is to read them over and agree that's what happened in the meeting. Otherwise they aren't meeting minutes Wink

I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.

Mr Booger
Amarr
Task Force Zener
Blade.
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:31:00 - [56]
 

Will there be a devblog on what exactly caused the Dominion lag-spike, or indeed CCP's efforts to find out what is going on in that area?

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:36:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Mynxee
Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D

I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.



This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.


To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.




I just thought, since there was such a visible divide in value ttached to metrics versus value attached to other business elements and processes (aside of the procedural oops moments) it would be a good idea for Oveur and CSM to tackle this one together.

You know, the technical stuff is just one side of it all. And while often correct and always valuable, it is just one part of what constitutes both the immersion and the business.

The CSM Meeting Minutes showed quite clear where value elements are assigned, the current situation shows quite clearly how that makes people uncomfortable, so why not stick Oveur and CSM in a virtual room and combine the perspectives so that we players can get some comfort of seeing that EVE and CCP are not going to end up like Catalyst portfolio pieces (common / ordinary companies versus being different). It's that side of CCP and EVE which has been a huge factor in getting it where they are today.

So, why not shack up, put some heads together. Who knows what milkshake you'll come up with, but at least it will show folks in EVE and outside of EVE that this ain't just another game. That it's worth sticking around, because the perspectives are shared, and so are the dream and the challenges alike.




I'm in.

We're never going to leave EVE. We've said that for 7 years.

We take pride in our strategy of having kept growing the EVE development team.

Everybody else moved their teams to new games. We hired entire new teams for ours while we keep hiring into EVE.

My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2010.08.13 18:37:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".

And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.

Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies Wink


Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?

Update your Bio Info please!


I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.

Zeke Mobius
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:38:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 13/08/2010 18:41:05
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:43:31
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:42:50
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle
so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how **** you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.


Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.

Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.

But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle

Congrats, you're douches.


I love Jersey Shore just as much as the next guy so I take that as a compliment ugh


A ccp dev actually making me lmao in a poast. whowouldathunkit? not i lol


**JERSEY SHORE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MMMM SNOOK!

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.13 18:39:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: CCP Oveur


I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.


I think he is referring to the CSM Meeting Minutes:

Quote:
14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence

CCP Attendees: Nathan – CCP Oveur, Erlendur – CCP Explorer

The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE. There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.

...

CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.


Summary:

The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction of CCP. The CSM stated that there’s a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against the promised excellence initiative.

CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isn’t committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.



This is more or less the "other" part of the situation, which combined with the "technical" part constitutes the big picture. For product, business, etc.

This is why I thought it'd be a good idea for you and CSM to tackle that one together, you know:

Originally by: Vilhjálmur Thorsteinsson
CCP‘s culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?




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