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blankseplocked World of Caps/SuperCaps - A solution to reduce the imbalance
 
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Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.11 13:09:00 - [1]
 

Hi all,
Basically I'm fed up with capital ships been very overpowered. Now this isn't so much a matter of their sheer strength or abilities, its more a matter of the combinations.

Capitals are:

The fastest ships in the game
The most powerful ships in the game
Can jump on an enemy with no warning more effectively than covert vessels can.

Simply put, been able to hot-drop on the enemy with no warning is just stupid. Almost any ships can carry a cyno field and use it to deliver a massive fleet on the enemy's heads.

The thing is, currently the allances with SuperCaps and large cap fleets completely dominate eve. This isn't due to skill or playing ability its simply that no-one without these can even hope to compete even in a small area. Wherever you go or try to take in null-sec currently there is a large allaince within jump range that can near instantly drop a fleet on you if you try and take sov.

There is also a very simple solution.

Modify the way Cyno fields work.

1: When you press the button on a cyno-field to active, you stop dead as currently, but nothing else happens.
2: After 1 minute from the button been pressed the cyno-field starts showing up across the system as it does currently, however no-one will be able to jump to it yet.
3: After 2 minutes from the button been pressed then it acts like a normal cyno-field.

This means 2 things.

1- You need to protect your cynos with a support fleet or they won't get opened.
2- No more instant hot-drops meaning the smaller alliances can actually fight the larger alliances in skirmishes without worrying that 12 motherships and titans are going to instantly appear on top of them.

If CCP actually want there to be more people and more allainces in Null-sec rather than it just been NC vs SC as it is now then something like this will NEED to be done to reduce the instant strike power of capital fleets.

Nothing else in this game even vaguely compares to this completely uncounterable advantage that they have.
While this does make logistics more annoying and longer to do I don't think it's too bad and it brings back the usage of transport ships rather than just having everything shipped about in carriers/JFs. I would support an increase in the capacity or defence of JFs to compensate for this somewhat.

Thanks for reading, constructive critism please!!! Cool


Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:30:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
Capitals are:

The fastest ships in the game
The most powerful ships in the game
Can jump on an enemy with no warning more effectively than covert vessels can.


Not sure what you mean when you say 'The fastest ships in the game.' They are far from being that.
Capitals are indeed powerful, but like you say, it's just a case of numbers.
As far as warnings are concerned, the fact a cyno is lit, is a warning. You cannot jump in without it. It may be a short one, but still a warning.

Now when it comes to your idea, it seems way too long a time to wait. Not sure I like it.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:26:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Mag's

Not sure what you mean when you say 'The fastest ships in the game.' They are far from being that.
Capitals are indeed powerful, but like you say, it's just a case of numbers.
As far as warnings are concerned, the fact a cyno is lit, is a warning. You cannot jump in without it. It may be a short one, but still a warning.

Now when it comes to your idea, it seems way too long a time to wait. Not sure I like it.


They are the fastest ships in the game.
No sub-cap (without a BO BS or titan bridge) can cover 30+ jumps in a matter of seconds like a capital can.
No other ship can jump ontop of an enemy with no warning from multiple systems away.

The whole point was to slow them down so they retain the power which is justified by their cost/size without their raft of ambush and movement abilities that outclass even frigs and cloakies.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.11 17:00:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
As far as warnings are concerned, the fact a cyno is lit, is a warning. You cannot jump in without it. It may be a short one, but still a warning.


The fact a fist is flying at your face is a warning you are about to get punched but no-one would actually regard that as a warning you are about to get punched.
There is no warning, they can jump as soon as the cap field is up and shows up to the players about to get ambushed.

Quote:
Capitals are indeed powerful, but like you say, it's just a case of numbers.

Its numbers of people in capitals, its not numbers.
Its the fact that anyone in a cap can instantly cyno to their target with the rest of their cap fleet, doing something that would take their support fleet (in smaller and supposedly faster) ships 30+ mins to cover the same distance.
Its the fact you can't realistically get info on anyone with cap ships, they make scouting pointless when they can instantly turn 1 enemy destroyer into 30+ capital ships.

Seriously, anyone trying to do a small gang roam even near places that might hold the bigger alliances is fairly screwed simply because you can't engage without risking your entire fleet.

This alone vastly imbalances the game in favour of the older richer alliances and doesn't leave any space for the newer alliances to grow, take space or do anything useful.

This would mean it would actually take some skill to hotdrop someone, after-all keeping someone tackled for 2 mins (or 1 min with good anticipation) isn't exactly easy most of the time.

Quote:
Now when it comes to your idea, it seems way too long a time to wait. Not sure I like it.

If it takes sub-caps 30+ mins to cross the same distance I think it taking 2 mins for caps, relatively risk free as well isn't too long to ask at all!

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.08.11 17:58:00 - [5]
 

Well the problem is that cap ships use a cyno for going one jump as well as 10 Additionally, that idea basically makes the force recon bonus useless ... I think what you want is a warp time on cynos, so traveling 10 lightyears takes a minute or so.

I still think this is an inadequate fix; I still like my idea for a cyno scrambling ship.

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.08.11 18:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Well the problem is that cap ships use a cyno for going one jump as well as 10 Additionally, that idea basically makes the force recon bonus useless ... I think what you want is a warp time on cynos, so traveling 10 lightyears takes a minute or so.

I still think this is an inadequate fix; I still like my idea for a cyno scrambling ship.


the travel time idea is better than the cyno jamming ship.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2010.08.11 19:20:00 - [7]
 

Why is that? I'm not looking for a system wide cyno scrambler but grid wide.

Avion Saberis
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.11 19:51:00 - [8]
 

I can see how Capitals are considered fast when using a cyno. And instead of adding a bunch of long string ideas, lets just add a time to how long they can get from point A to point B. this way they ain't so fast and allows alittle bit of time for the opposition to react.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.12 03:15:00 - [9]
 

The 'Time to travel' makes sense as well, I don't mind either.

As for not understanding how capitals are faster.

If it takes one ship 20 mins to cover ten jump and another under 1 min, which would you say was faster????
Its not that difficult!

Either way for capitals to not be vastly overpowered compared to smaller ships there does need to be a delay between cyno opening and the capitals actually arriving.

Ydyp Ieva
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2010.08.12 05:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna
The 'Time to travel' makes sense as well, I don't mind either.

As for not understanding how capitals are faster.

If it takes one ship 20 mins to cover ten jump and another under 1 min, which would you say was faster????
Its not that difficult!

Either way for capitals to not be vastly overpowered compared to smaller ships there does need to be a delay between cyno opening and the capitals actually arriving.

The faster argument is mute, you still have to get the cyno in place 10 jumps away. As capitals can't use the gates by their own and need a cyno to jump to.

As for the delayed effects on the cyno, no thanks. Most cyno ships only need a few seconds to kill and I haven't seen any that would survive 1 minute after a cyno is lit without the support of a jumped in logistics or carrier.

The increase of traveltime on jumps would be more sensible, but just make it a max of 30 seconds at maximum jump range, and near instant if it is just the neighboring systems.

kano donn
New Path
Posted - 2010.08.12 06:21:00 - [11]
 

No. simply no.

Minchurra
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:28:00 - [12]
 

Their ability to jump numerous systems at once is balanced by their inability to use stargates.

Someone popped a cyno on gate? Jump system = problem solved.

Although I agree that bridging 50 Battleships onto 3 BCs in lowsec is stupid and needs to be looked at, it happens far too often.

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:58:00 - [13]
 

capitals are weak at best against support try fighting a sniper hac fleet with 100 dreads, capitals arent mobilepwnmobile, you can always launch a couple of bombs on top of a supercarrisr fleet's fighterbombers and pff a couple of billions in drones explodes, you only need a couple of heavy dictor and enought numbers to **** a couple of capitals remote repair wont save them from neuts =), a capital fleet without support is as good as dead if you know how to engage them with support only. If you cant defend youself from them 2-3 minutes of delay wont give you any advantage but to flee.

The nc vs sc and blobs its a part of the human nature thats why its so hard to avoid.

Concubinia Scarlett
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:01:00 - [14]
 

How about a locking time delay, say a minute, for all ships after jumping through a cyno / being cyno bridged?
Not too unbalanced, easy to implement(Same thing already exists for cloaking modules).
Covert jump bridges would be exempt.

Zanzbar
Posted - 2010.08.12 16:15:00 - [15]
 

Problem is you could easily scan down one of these ships within the first min if your paying atention as the added sig radius from the cyno makes it so that the cov ops that lit it might as well be an orca with sheild extenders and a mwd as far as probing is concerned. With thisweven a dread could get there, lock (again huge sig radius = insta lock) and oneshot the cyno.

And yes I see your intention of making a decent sub-cap support fleet necessary but what if your trying to take a system from one of these well establishewd alliances? They are sure to have several caps already in station waiting to undock and destry your subcapfleet while you fail to keep a cyno up long enough to bring in your own caps.

I'm not a fan of cap blobs or anything, but if your going to try and nerf blob warrefare the find a better way.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.08.12 16:54:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 12/08/2010 16:57:47
Increase the fuel consumption for all jumps/bridges and add a modifier based on system security.

Cuts down on jump bridge usage (0.0 logistics is faster/easier than Empire for Goddess sake!),
Low-sec mass hotdrops needs constant refuelling so will be done mainly by locals (which are far fewer in number), and
The big 0.0 blobs will have to plan ahead to establish large fuel caches prior to major troop movements making early warning and bigger/better fights more likely.

If fuel becomes scarce, doubtful but who knows, the yield of planetary extractors can be tweaked (no love lost for out-of-business ice macros).

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Rhinanna


They are the fastest ships in the game.
No sub-cap (without a BO BS or titan bridge) can cover 30+ jumps in a matter of seconds like a capital can.
No other ship can jump ontop of an enemy with no warning from multiple systems away.

The whole point was to slow them down so they retain the power which is justified by their cost/size without their raft of ambush and movement abilities that outclass even frigs and cloakies.


You really should have worded it better, but yes they travel systems faster. But as has been stated by Ydyp Ieva, you still have to travel the cyno ship to the destination, so it's mute.

I think 2 mins is way too long. Giving people either time to warp or time to pop the cyno ship.
TBH I'm a bit meh to the whole idea, so I'll leave you too it. Good luck.

Murderers Apprentice
Gallente
Trixi IFI
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:20:00 - [18]
 

i like the grid wide cyno jammer ship idea, if they can't drop a cap fleet on top of your ship, then the cyno off grid would be a warning that caps are in warp to you (given that their warp is very slow) i would take that as a good warning, as jump freighters would suffer from both the time travel idea and delayed cynoSmile

Tianzi Q'triann
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:28:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Capitals are:
The fastest ships in the game
The most powerful ships in the game
Can jump on an enemy with no warning more effectively than covert vessels can.

Correction on this:
Largest ship in game, means more epeen girth acquired when its destroyed.
Correct in being powerful, but useless without a support fleet of its own
They can jump pretty quick, but probably had the training and foresight in advance to have the plan in action prior to actually pulling it off then you need better alliance inlet to pin down that cap ship and faster response to take it out of action.

If your complaining that Caps are pwn mobiles in EVE where the bigger/badder/tougher guy will also have the advantage, then EVE is not for you.


Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2010.08.12 22:34:00 - [20]
 

Hmmm...

Battleship with fittings and rigs - 180m isk, 5-6 (estimate) months training to be able to fly really, really well and use most of the gear optimally (from 0, if trained for the pvp purpose), plus somewhere under 100m for skillbooks.

Cheap carrier with fitting and fuel for a both way travel- 1.2 b isk (2 years of training to fly properly, plus 800m isk in skill books for capital ships and racial carrier only, plus another 200m for all side skills, if not more).

ship cost relation: 1200:180=6.66 (so 6 well fitted pvp bs and another a bit worse bs)
skill book time relation 24:6= 4 time as long training
skill book cost: ~1b : 100m: 10 times more isk for skill books.

Insurance payout... Covers the entire BS hull and you only have to buy back fittings for own money (50% cost is off).

Insurance payout... Covers maybe 70% of the hull plus you have to buy back all the far, far more expensive fittings.



So tell me once again... What is your problem? You find the biggest and most expensive ships for which you have to train years too powerful? My God...


And a cyno? You really find it a problem for a big allaince having the said fleet of supercapitals to field 50 battleships to cover a cyno ship for a moment? It won't be a problem...

Future advice - red in system... Cyno appears... Don't start pondering what a cyno is, but RUN.





I have no sov, I was in a big sov holding alliance... And I don't really think a 120s wait on cyno activation with only a 60s warning would change -a thing-.


Siale Achthe
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:04:00 - [21]
 

@Dr Karsun

I do believe it not a complaint of the power of the ships, its a complaint that blobs of them can effectively defend MANY systems within minutes from multiple threats.

The problem at hand is the super manoeuvrability of these ships 'power' If i understand the proposal is that cyno-ing a blob fleet need be nerfed.

The general thinking is that with some form of limitation at the 'entrance' cyno end of things gives people present in that system chance to adequately react to the impending 30 carriers or whatever.

Although the original idea posted probably isn't the answer I do think that WTF blob warefare needs toning down.

AlastarB Frost
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:41:00 - [22]
 

Why not go a step further?

Add a sov module that prevents all enemy cynos except for covert ones.

In order to get a capital fleet into a system, one needs to set up a bridge head. This means you light a module that creates some kind of deadspace. This deadspace has an entrance wich can be scanned down and allows all subcapitals warp in. Inside the deadspace the module begins to charge, wich takes several hours to complete. If completed, you can jump your captial fleet to the deadspace bubble. The entrance lets your fleet out, but not in. The cyno is then up for an hour (to allow some reinforcements to pass)

In order to attack a system where another party holds the sov you have two ways: either set up such a bridge and defend the inside of the bubble with cov ops ships (wich increases the value of cov ops bs significantly), wich is possible as only subcapitals can warp into it to prevent it from starting the cyno. Or attack the module that prevents cynos and drop a fleet.

This would allow to defend systems you have sov with your cap fleets as usual. but if a small alliance holds sov, it is hard to get a cap fleet in. The system can be defended with subcaps.

Building bridgeheads to land heavy forces on enemy territory is required in normal wars, why not in eve? And if this is too difficult for you or takes too long, you have to breach the defenses by blowing up the anti-cyno module.

The problem of attacking larger alliances remains, becomes even more difficult. But on the other hand, lighting up some of those deadspace bubbles is a great distraction for a conventional attack somewhere at the borders of their space.

it440
Caldari
OZ industries and Technology
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:29:00 - [23]
 

i think caps are fine and i cant wait too be in one with proper skills, the solution that you seek is in game already and its called worm hole space, problem solved!

Hienz Doofenshmirtz
Posted - 2010.08.13 08:43:00 - [24]
 

the fact that there is a nuet or hostile in your system should be a warning that your about to get jumped, if your nrds it's your own fault you got hot dropped, if you were slow enough to let a hot drop happen it's your own fault. man up and fly

Abuta Beki
Posted - 2010.08.13 12:02:00 - [25]
 

I think the best solution to the whole issue would be to limit the number of capitals that can jump to a single cyno.

Imagine there were three different kinds of cynosural field generator. Light, medium and heavy. A light cyno field breaks down after 1 capital jumped to it. A medium cyno could take 2 capitals in and a heavy cyno could take 4. Light cynos would be frigate modules, medium cynos would be cruiser modules and heavy cynos would be battleship modules, so that there is a cyno size for each class of cover operations ships (Covert Ops, Recon and Black Ops). Maybe even add a capital cyno generator, able to take 8 jumps, only usable by capital ships.

Hotdropping would still be possible, but it would require more effort and increase the cost for the cyno ship.

Another option would be to bring cynos in line with jump bridges, consuming fuel based on the size of what jumps in. That way the cargo hold would be the limiting factor as to how much a ship can cyno in. Since carriers have less mass than supercarriers, the number of supercarrier hotdrops would also decline.

This would especially nerf the ridiculously overpowered 4-5 man capital warfare groups, where one guy in a frigate hotdrops you with 3-4 supercarriers that kill you off and vanish right after.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.13 12:56:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
The faster argument is mute, you still have to get the cyno in place 10 jumps away. As capitals can't use the gates by their own and need a cyno to jump to.


<sarcasm>Because no allaince ever scatters alts around the regions they can jump too...... no this never happens honest!!!!!! </sarcasm>
The fact a under 1 week old toon can open a cyno completly removes this arguement I'm afraid.

Quote:
Their ability to jump numerous systems at once is balanced by their inability to use stargates.
Someone popped a cyno on gate? Jump system = problem solved.


So basically you are saying never leave the gates....... because that is a viable and sensible option honest!!!! Their inability to use gates is inconvient rather than a major disadvangtage where as been able to use a jump drive is a major advantage.

Quote:
capitals are weak at best against support try fighting a sniper hac fleet with 100 dreads

You know, I think most people tend to use carrier and motherships to hit cruisers which do a wonderful job of demolishing sniper hacs actually. Dreads are for POS sieges and anti-capital work so undersurpringly they have problems vs smaller vessels.

Quote:
you can always launch a couple of bombs on top of a supercarrisr fleet's fighterbombers and pff a couple of billions in drones explodes

And either bomb your own team that the fighters are attacking or the fighters are on the enemy supercaps anyway so they will just be docked before the bombs hit. Its not a winning tactic and it barely works if at all.

Quote:
Problem is you could easily scan down one of these ships within the first min if your paying atention as the added sig radius from the cyno makes it so that the cov ops that lit it might as well be an orca with sheild extenders and a mwd as far as probing is concerned. With thisweven a dread could get there, lock (again huge sig radius = insta lock) and oneshot the cyno.

The travel time solution seems to work here, even if the cyno is destroyed the cap is already on the way so it doesn't matter.

Quote:
the fact that there is a nuet or hostile in your system should be a warning that your about to get jumped, if your nrds it's your own fault you got hot dropped, if you were slow enough to let a hot drop happen it's your own fault. man up and fly


So basically you are saying never engage a enemy in combat just in case they have a cyno........
Well done I think you've just won the stupid award.

Quote:
I have no sov, I was in a big sov holding alliance... And I don't really think a 120s wait on cyno activation with only a 60s warning would change -a thing-.


It wasn't about affecting big sov warfare, it was about letting the smaller alliances have a fighting chance when engaging small sections of the larger alliances IE their roaming gangs as currently many of them just cap drop as soon as they see an enemy is close to a fair fight.

Some of the alternative suggested ideas have been excellent, I just want to see more options for smaller gang warfare as WELL as larger gang warfare. Currently the ease and power of a cap hotdrop or a titan bridge just seriously nerfs small gang warfare completely. One of the things about the sandbox and the recent changes where meant to encourage small fast moving fleets to hit vunverable targets and run before the enemy can react. With cap hot-drops unfortunatly it means large enemy fleets can respond almost instantly to any agression, far faster than a sub-cap fleet can.



AlastarB Frost
Posted - 2010.08.13 13:21:00 - [27]
 

If there is an neut or red in system you are about to get hotdropped? really? you then start to gather a fleet?
There are many afk cloakys wich sit in systems almost 24/7 wich cant be scanned down. There is another thread about nerfing cloak especcialy for afk cloaking. there people say: ignore the cloaky. here you say: gather a fleet.

Its the same problem: anyone who can place an alt with cloak and cyno in a system is a serious threat. Its impossible to get the cloaky and its impossible to counteract if he lights a cyno. And if you start to ignore them, you will be completly surprised. Something has to change about that.

i like all ideas about encouraging small gang warfare. It shouldnt be just "bigger is better". Commando operations with small subcap fleets or covert operations with cloaked frigs, crusiers AND battleships should have a chance to change something. Hit strategic targets to conquer a system, defend those systems, give smaller alliances a fighting chance. At least a chance to give a good fight and earn some respect, not to get slaughtered by a overwhelming cap fleet of an old alliance.

it440
Caldari
OZ industries and Technology
Posted - 2010.08.13 19:53:00 - [28]
 

if you cant handle the big cap fleets that big alliances have at their control then stay away from their space untill you have a large cap fleet of your own, being successfull in growing a big alliance with the advantage of cap fleet capability is a reward for your hard work, dont punish this. there are even small alliances without sov that have worked hard to have a cap fleet and are successfull with them. if you dont want to grow your own cf then try WH space to do your pvp.


Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2010.08.13 20:10:00 - [29]
 

Omg someone with more money and people is beating the smaller and weaker, call the whambulance!
Honestly go back to empire, you could talk about imbalance if you couldn't just counter them with proper tactics or just MOAR CAPITOLS

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.13 23:18:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
if you cant handle the big cap fleets that big alliances have at their control then stay away from their space


Sorry I missed the magic forcefield holding the caps in their space and stopping them jumping to their roaming gangs/single players.

Quote:
the advantage of cap fleet capability is a reward for your hard work, dont punish this.

So basically you are saying you deserve to be overpowered now?
Its simply the ability to instantly move into combat from a massive distance that needs changing. Why should a cap fleet be better at doing this than a recon/stealth fleet????

Quote:
Omg someone with more money and people is beating the smaller and weaker, call the whambulance!
Honestly go back to empire, you could talk about imbalance if you couldn't just counter them with proper tactics or just MOAR CAPITOLS


Ok Mr. Balls for Brain,
Show us the tactics for a 20man fleet to be able to fight with and get kills without major risk of getting hot dropped please.
No, ISK should NOT completely override skills, tactics and scouting but the abilities of capitals currently do this. Instead of random sweeping statements perhaps instead try something constructive for a change and suggest how anyone does counter this.



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