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blankseplocked GM caves to reimbursment demand - Dangerous precedent set
 
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Atomik Harmonik
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:11:00 - [151]
 

I, for one, would like to see CCP reimburse and give back Providence to CVA.

The only reason CVA lost the main battle was because their fleet commander jumped the fleet out and then jumped it right back into the middle of a blob and none of their ships could target due to lag. Of course the other ships already had the grid loaded and could shoot with no return fire at all.

Lag is not a game mechanic or feature. CVA pilots should have at least been given the opportunity to fight back, instead of being fish in a barrel. The whole Region should be reset and all ships replaced.

After that fight, it was all downhill and now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go.


FunzzeR
Legion of the Scottish Fold
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:23:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: FunzzeR on 12/08/2010 17:23:49
Originally by: Atomik Harmonik


...now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go.




A blessing tbh...

Mickey Simon
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:39:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: FunzzeR
Edited by: FunzzeR on 12/08/2010 17:23:49
Originally by: Atomik Harmonik


...now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go.




A blessing tbh...

Only if you're a ****ing ******. Providence was one of the best places to roam for a long time while CVA held control.

Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:43:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Atomik Harmonik
I, for one, would like to see CCP reimburse and give back Providence to CVA.

The only reason CVA lost the main battle was because their fleet commander jumped the fleet out and then jumped it right back into the middle of a blob and none of their ships could target due to lag. Of course the other ships already had the grid loaded and could shoot with no return fire at all.

Lag is not a game mechanic or feature. CVA pilots should have at least been given the opportunity to fight back, instead of being fish in a barrel. The whole Region should be reset and all ships replaced.

After that fight, it was all downhill and now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go.




You'll need to expand your list of demands to properly intimdate the GMs.

Ask for a recount, your old job back and a 6000 SUX.

Wouldn't hurt to throw in 1 million ISK and the head of Alfredo Garcia.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2010.08.12 17:49:00 - [155]
 

Revising my previous ITT.

ITT: Ninja looters try to convince us that a 1st-level GM copy/paste response trumps a Senior GM's personal (not copy/pasted) response.

CCP's Responses to the Petition

You want evidence that this is considered an exploit? There's a Senior GM telling you so. So again, I say- either show us a statement from someone higher-up than a Senior GM that this is not classified as an exploit or GTFO.

Also,

[/THREAD]

K'racker
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.12 18:09:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Quote:
If you encounter this gain I strongly encourage you not to undock and rather contact us through a petition, such as Agent Mission In Progress or Exploits, whichever is applicable to you. This permits us to limit or eliminate penalties against you and investigate this in more detail.


Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit?


I'm referring to a GM post on these forums that can be linked to. Not some cut/paste from a blog.


not surprising if nobody can find a link, it was several years ago and the search feature is horrible. you were around, and remember the ruling, or you weren't. simple.

it was fixed, and broke in a later patch, and the bug returns, like many others have in eve history.

you don't have to shoot the wreck, so just one can keep someone aggro'd for 2 hrs~ till it despawns. you can aggro someone, after they've waited out their timer, and logged. can you seriously say this is intended?

don't be upset when gm's are confused or inconsistent when having to rule on something that was supposedly fixed. just keep doing it until you get warned or it's fixed again.

i'd not post complaining about it tho.. ffs you're supposed to be pirates, extracting carebear tears. not dumping your own all over the forum. Embarassed

Atomik Harmonik
Posted - 2010.08.12 19:35:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
Revising my previous ITT.

ITT: Ninja looters try to convince us that a 1st-level GM copy/paste response trumps a Senior GM's personal (not copy/pasted) response.

CCP's Responses to the Petition

You want evidence that this is considered an exploit? There's a Senior GM telling you so. So again, I say- either show us a statement from someone higher-up than a Senior GM that this is not classified as an exploit or GTFO.

Also,

[/THREAD]


The aggro-extension feature or exploit can be debated; but that is not the main issue. The main issue here is that Callduron supposedly received a replacement ship for something that HE could have mitigated.

- He knew that there was an aggro timer running; he says so.
- Even if he didn't understand what was making it reset; he still should not have undocked in his CNR
- If he wanted to undock and check if it was 'real', he could have done so in a t1 frigate or shuttle...it only would have taken a few seconds to swap the ship
- He even had a second chance to reconsider undocking; a warning popup while under the aggression timer...he clicked through it

You can argue about if the aggro extension is an exploit or not, but the fact remains that there are plenty of other people who have lost ships due to 'actual' unexpected glitches or problems with the game (rather than their own stupidity), and have not been reimbursed. I think the guy should hold a charity selloff of the CNR and then give the money to E-Uni or give directly to noobs that are randomly chosen from the help channel.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.08.12 20:59:00 - [158]
 

Boredom:

Two alts aggressed each other, prober alt and test alt. Test alt dropped a can. Both stopped at 2025.

Prober alt aggressed test alt's can at 2030.
Aggression timer refreshed to 15m on both immediately.
Stopped aggression on can @ 2035, aggression refreshed to 15m again and began counting down.

Logged test alt off at 2040, probed and warp to him. He did not disappear after 5 minutes.

@2045. With 5 minutes left on aggression, I warped back to the can and aggressed it again. Timer refreshed to 15m

Warped back to the test alt, still in space.

@2050, test alt still in space, with 10mins left on aggression, he stopped being red for the probe alt.
Locking test alt and trying to scram gave me a concord warning. Warping back to can and doing the same resulted in the same.

However, the ship stayed in space.

Logging test alt in, he warped back to the can, prober alt was still red until the end of the aggression timer @ 2100.





What I pulled from this? Cap pilots need to abandon every can/wreck they make unless they want to take the risk of being screwed by the aggression mechanics.

Also, if the CNR pilot had simply logged out for >15mins, the Tengu could not have refreshed aggression and he would have been safe.

Tira 0'TooIe
Posted - 2010.08.12 21:16:00 - [159]
 

Please prove that anything said in the blog or in the OP is actually true. Thanks

Random Alt147782
Posted - 2010.08.12 22:58:00 - [160]
 

This will probably get deleted but basically was told this by a senior GM:

The game mechanic you are referring to is not advertised nor supported by CCP. We are currently not taking action against anyone doing this at the current time. We at CCP do reserve the right to adjust this policy at any given time in the future should the situation warrant it.

Is basically it is not working as intended, but they cannot be bothered to do anything about it.

Rita Zechs
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:22:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Random Alt147782
This will probably get deleted but basically was told this by a senior GM:

The game mechanic you are referring to is not advertised nor supported by CCP. We are currently not taking action against anyone doing this at the current time. We at CCP do reserve the right to adjust this policy at any given time in the future should the situation warrant it.

Is basically it is not working as intended, but they cannot be bothered to do anything about it.


CCP not fixing bugs? That's impossible! They care about quality!

RasTrent
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:26:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: RasTrent on 12/08/2010 23:27:02
when they changed the orca mechanics with out mentioning it in the patch notes and i lost a proteus.. they wouldnt give it back.

its because im black.

CCP IS RACIST!

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:30:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Mickey Simon
Providence was one of the best places to roam for a long time while CVA held control.


It still is. But yes, it was quite good before. And yes, I'm biased. Razz

Analissa Fiora
Posted - 2010.08.12 23:42:00 - [164]
 

pirate QQ is best QQ Laughing

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.08.13 00:02:00 - [165]
 

...Am tryin ma hardest to derail this thread for fun now...

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2010.08.13 00:16:00 - [166]
 

A Senior GM has told me that aggro extension is NOT an exploit, but that they may still reimburse ships.

http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=824

Quote:
By way of my own insignificant protest, I will not be ninja salvaging/ganking until either aggro extension is called an exploit or I receive assurances from CCP that my victims won’t get their mistakes reversed by CCP. I’ll still work my infiltration alts and wardecs, but I have no motivation to continue my primary profession when it’s so likely that the work will mean nothing.

Analissa Fiora
Posted - 2010.08.13 00:54:00 - [167]
 

Lotsa butthurt piwats in this thread Laughing keep the tears flowing.

Hallan Turrek
Caldari
The Outlaws.
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2010.08.13 01:17:00 - [168]
 

This is ridiculous. It's an accepted mechanic, and a way of life for an entire segment of eve's population.

But lets pretend it IS in the air.

To say "The other guy did nothing wrong, but here's your ship back" was the mistake. It's either or. If the ninja salvager did nothing wrong, that guy doesn't deserve his CNR back. If the Ninja Salvager did something wrong, of course he deserves it back.

But their ain't no gray area here. It's either/or.

Again, I find CCP lacking in a basic component of good defensible policy. COMMON SENSE.

Fademist
Posted - 2010.08.13 01:38:00 - [169]
 

6 pages of tears nice....

Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
Posted - 2010.08.13 02:28:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Kiritsubo on 13/08/2010 02:33:10
Edited by: Kiritsubo on 13/08/2010 02:31:26
No bad tears or bad *****.

*****.
*****.
*****.
*********.

***** Galore's Flying Circus

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:23:00 - [171]
 

I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers.

Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer.

Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer.

Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets.

Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord.

Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off.

No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins.


Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:27:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers.

Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer.

Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer.

Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets.

Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord.

Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off.

No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins.




this made absolutely no sense at all.

care to try it again?

in english perhaps?


Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid.

Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done!


.... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

guska Cryotank
Gallente
Void Angels
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:30:00 - [173]
 

So the reimbursement criteria are getting softer?

I've personally had a couple of 'what the?' moments with reimbursement petitions.

I've had a BS refused reimbursement although it was obviously caught in a bug, had a couple of Dramiels die because of weird bugs where my ship literally couldn't move (speed display was rising etc. but no actual movement).

But then I've had several ships returned to me, without asking for it, after filing a "is this intended" petition (which were honesly asking the question, as they were mechanics I hadn't encountered before), without a reimbursment petition to go along with it. These were met with "yes this is intended, but as you weren't aware of it, here's your ship back".

What....the?

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:35:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Analissa Fiora
Lotsa butthurt piwats in this thread Laughing keep the tears flowing.

Lotsa Butthurt.....what an amazing name for an alt that would be

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:43:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers.

Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer.

Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer.

Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets.

Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord.

Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off.

No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins.




this made absolutely no sense at all.

care to try it again?

in english perhaps?


Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid.

Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done!


.... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


It's in pretty plain English buddy, all those eye rolls might of damaged your eyes. Perhaps you should consider corrective lenses or contact lenses Mr. Possum.

As for abandoning wrecks, why should anyone do that. There is no reason too, except the extended aggro timer weird semi exploit thing.

Just in case good sir I will explain it again in simpler terms for you.

Ninja’s shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired.


Paul Clavet
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2010.08.13 03:58:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Ninja’s shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired.




I would be fine with this. Basically either CCP declaring it an exploit and reimbursing or CCP declaring it valid and not reimbursing are perfectly valid outcomes. What is completely unacceptable is to say "Oh, it's not an exploit, but since you didn't know about it, here's your stuff back."

Anyone who has done any amount of PvP has lost ships due to ignorance of some niche game mechanic. How many ship reimbursements have you gotten?

How is it that I can risk my ship to kill a carebear who shot at me, but I can't be sure that a GM won't just hand my kill back to the victim? Gankers can lose big (I lost a Tengu yesterday!) but for a carebear, claimed ignorance of mechanics will get your ship back?

guska Cryotank
Gallente
Void Angels
C0NVICTED
Posted - 2010.08.13 04:17:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Paul Clavet
I lost a Tengu yesterday!


RIP JerkTengu, it shall be missed

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2010.08.13 04:29:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Aiwha
I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed.

I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour.


this pretty much sums it up, cry moar ninja's

Mitz Pufos
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:51:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Aiwha
I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed.

I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour.


QFT

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:53:00 - [180]
 

Silly, non-commital CCP dude - "This certainly looks odd although we can not implicate Van Orth in anything directly. Please do not consider this resolution as anything against this character"

Basically saying nothing... "this looks odd" No it doesn't.. It's pretty straightforward!

I don't know... This thread is dead, but I had to reply to two things...

One: The issue isn't REALLY that someone got something back.. The issue is CCPs lack of ability to commit to ANYTHING and seeming total ignorance of the word CONSISTENCY... "X is wrong right now, but ask me again in a minute and it'll be totally okay" and "we are aware of the issue, and it is working as intended" changing to "WHAT?? When did that start happening???" in a matter of weeks are things which are happening FAR too often lately.. (don't try and quote me there, I'm just relaying a general attitude, not actual quotes based on actual events)

Two: STOP CALLING NINJAS PIRATES!!! They are FAR from pirates! Pirates ransom.. Pirates uphold their word.. Pirates hunt ships, NOT wrecks.. Pirates care more about isk than tears (be it isk in the form of income [ransom] or isk in the form of loss of ship [refusal to pay ransom]

Done...


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