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blankseplocked GM caves to reimbursment demand - Dangerous precedent set
 
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Zumra
Posted - 2010.08.12 04:08:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Alazontez Gallenteur
Only 1 comment to make to all those going on about a ninja being able to renew aggro indefinitely.

Wrecks despawn after 2 hours. So there you go, there's the window.

Not espousing support or condemnation for any parties involved, just pointing out a clearly overlooked detail.





But before the 2 hours you can salvage a can which you will have to play with for a while. I am also pretty sure if you kill one of the spawns you get a fresh new wreck with the mission runners name on it. So you can keep agro fro 23 hours theoretically, until the next downtime.

I also believe it makes no sense that a timer letting you be attacked by another player for 15 minutes after you make an aggressive action towards them; may be extended 22:45minutes by them shooting at your wrecks, or better yet by killing pirates in your mission and then shooting/neuting/scramming those wrecks.

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.08.12 05:39:00 - [92]
 

What freakin differance does it make to the Ninja if the bear got his cuddly back? Did it take away his joy at griefing the guy? Did he lose his killmail? (sob)Griefers and pirates always laugh at people for whining, but isn't this whole thread one long tantrum? Who gives a crap if CCP caved, doing so didn't hurt the Ninja, so everyone should stop acting like they got their Wheaties ***ed in.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2010.08.12 06:41:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
What freakin differance does it make to the Ninja if the bear got his cuddly back? Did it take away his joy at griefing the guy? Did he lose his killmail? (sob)Griefers and pirates always laugh at people for whining, but isn't this whole thread one long tantrum? Who gives a crap if CCP caved, doing so didn't hurt the Ninja, so everyone should stop acting like they got their Wheaties ***ed in.


You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT.

I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE.

Lana Torrin
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.12 06:45:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT.

I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE.


Q F F T

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2010.08.12 06:47:00 - [95]
 

The only solution to this problem and many others is to drop all sec status from empire. There aggression timers for every single ****ing kind of problem from neutral RR ships and POSes to this are solved.

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2010.08.12 06:48:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Tortugan.[/quote


You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT.

I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE.


A slippery slope indeed. Now we have the Obamanation, so the theory is proved, it only gets worse farther down the slope.

ISK1machine
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:14:00 - [97]
 

So the Nija guy basically camped an acceleration gate for over an hour waiting for the missioner to return..
Oh dear,who needs low sec and null sec to PVP when there are so many thrills in empire.No wonder i never see Ninja's in low sec.
P.S:no i never lost a ship from a ninja.One came in my mission site once,warped out the BS came back with an untanked arbitrator and send my brand new Hammerheads T2 his way.Unfortunatelly i then realised that i didnt had a point fitted.Fortunate for me it was a Ninja guy and he still died without beeing scrammed---->win

F90OEX
F9X
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:21:00 - [98]
 

Speaking of CNR's and all that,

I'd like to announce that CNR's will be increasing in price over the next few weeks, this is due to the fact my dirty Gallente slaves went on strike.

There seemed light at the end of the tunnel, but then I received this mail....

Dear F900EX

Unlimited CNR's BPO Inc and Gallente Slave Union management have been in continuous mediation since last week and with the help and suggestions of the UCNR have made substantial progress and approved a tentative agreement. The TA satisfies the goals, but is subject to completion of contract language and approval of a satisfactory return to work agreement before being presented to the membership for ratification.

Even with the completion of contract issues, additional details still need to be worked out regarding the important return to work issues. We expect to update you later today with further news. However, until all provisions are met, we remain on strike.

I have to admit, upon receiving this mail I lost it, I needed them back to work this week those lazy dirty bast..rds, I got on comms which connects to 1000s of slave homes and dropped the F bomb on them, I told them after 3 years of this crap I had it, F them all.. and they can starve and be homeless for all I care and don't be expecting there 100 Isk pay check... I give them 1 inch, they want a mile.

Thing is, I don't think they took that very well since I could see a large group gather outside in the old rusty T1 frigs, so rather than face the music, I grabbed my beers, and slided down the emergency exit into the State Raven, un-docked and warped off. I said to myself as I could tell they where spamming there lock button, "this is going to get rather interesting".

Too be continued.......




darius mclever
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:27:00 - [99]
 

lol. almost as good as privateers whining about "they can loot the wrecks from our kills and we cant do anything".

CCP should finally fix the bug that the wreck owner doesnt see the extended aggression timer. then they could leave the mechanic in place but both sides would have the information.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:32:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: darius mclever
lol. almost as good as privateers whining about "they can loot the wrecks from our kills and we cant do anything".

CCP should finally fix the bug that the wreck owner doesnt see the extended aggression timer. then they could leave the mechanic in place but both sides would have the information.


Hey braniac, they did that already

Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:49:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank
http://www1.eveinfo.com/img/icons/64_64/icon02_11.png
Image changed to a URL - Adida


I don't get it. Can you circle the important part?

darius mclever
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:52:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
Hey braniac, they did that already


Then it was missing in the release notes. when was the fix deployed?

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:56:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 10:57:26
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Skippermonkey
Hey braniac, they did that already


Then it was missing in the release notes. when was the fix deployed?


No idea, it was a stealth fix.. but it has happened

maybe

Ktudgha Tuth
Posted - 2010.08.12 10:58:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT.
Calling exploit an "exploit" is dangerous precedent. If that continues, we couldn't exploit bugs anymore!

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2010.08.12 11:02:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Count MonteCarlo
i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit


which it should be


Surely three years promoted it from exploit to valid game mechanic, it can't be that hard to add a check in the code to not extend aggro if a wreck/can is involved.

Surely CCP can fix a pretty simple bug in three years right? Right?

No they can't and timers are a mess. They'll get to it in 18 months I guess.

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.12 11:58:00 - [106]
 

I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed.

I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:05:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 12:07:49
Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 12:06:45
Originally by: Stoopid blog
About 40 minutes later I came back. Strange, still 8 minutes on the timer. OK, I know better than to rush out with a timer on, I stayed in dock and read forums. It kept jumping back to 9 minutes whenever it hit 7 minutes. Odd.

After about 20 minutes of this I decided to risk a quick sortie to the mission. In my lovely Caldari Navy Raven with faction shield booster.

You know what happened, right? I mean I know what happened and I would have known what happened next even if I didn't know what happened next.

A Tengu. Waiting. At my acceleration gate.



See, he knew what was waiting for him and jumped to his death anyway. Where exactly was the action that allows him to regain his ship for free?

Any half-intelligent pilot would maybe fly a cheap frigate to see what was extending that aggro timer

Also, by him acknowledging that the aggression timer was updating periodically, it shows that CCP has stealth fixed aggro mecahnics to allow the target to see when they are still 'in combat'.

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:08:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Mo0seluffer




I ran a stop sign i didnt know about.Was completly honest with the officer about me never being in that area before.Didnt have insurance.And still recieved a warnig.Got my car back (which was 5 feet away from the police cruiser) and made my way to the next stargate (freeway onramp)...Honest mistake is honest.


Proof that there are fail cops as well as fail CCP employees... It's illegal and you DO get ticketed for it, unless you get a pansy-ass cop or you're hot...


Even more proof of why the world is the way it is now.Keep making excuses and dodging the reality of it all there Zanadoo.You cant keep modifing the mechanics or excuses.The whole wreck is no ones.Nor the loot inside.As you ninjas have always said.1st come 1st served.If the wreck is the OPS why no aggression when someone salvages it?CAUSE IT ISNT HIS!


Umm... If that was directed at me, you completely missed my point...
The WRECK belongs to no one (well, technically it belongs to the person who was piloting the ship, but in this case that was an NPC, so moot point).. The items inside the wreck belong to the person who created the wreck.. Just like the salvage belongs to the person who created it, since it is non-existant until the Salvager module finishes a successful cycle...
It's not difficult to understand.. And I'm not a ninja.. Tried it.. Didn't like it, it's boring... I'm merely pointing out the mechanics behind the topic..
And there is no aggro when someone salvages a wreck because it doesn't belong to anyone.. Only the contents of the wreck belong to someone (think I screwed that up in my op)...you're wrong in saying the loot inside the wreck is no one's.. That's why an aggro timer starts when you steal and item from a wreck.. Because you took something which belonged to someone else...

There have been a couple of dev posts explaining this.. Why is it still a topic?????

Oh, and it's Xanadu, not Zanadoo..... (yeah, I'm old enough to remember that HORRID movie Smile )

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:10:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Aiwha
aggression for an hour.


No one was under an aggression timer for an hour.. He was under an aggression timer which lasted 15 minutes, but was being reset by a prick trying to nab a 'bear Twisted Evil

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:17:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Xearal
What she said


Yes, you're right in that it SHOULD be considered an exploit, but it isn't...
If it were, there'd be an officail dev post about it and it (hopefully) would've been fixed by now...

So, if we want it classed as an exploit (or fixed) then EVERYONE needs to abuse this mechanic on a DAILY basis!
CCP would be flooded with 'bear tears to the point of being forced to make a decision or take a REAL action...

Problem solved (oh, and fun and 'bear tears created) Wink

Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:18:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Zanaraxtarus
Originally by: Aiwha
aggression for an hour.


No one was under an aggression timer for an hour.. He was under an aggression timer which lasted 15 minutes, but was being reset by a prick trying to nab a 'bear Twisted Evil


He served his waiting time in station, and a third party extended it. That doesent fit in with CCP's generally accepted game mechanics, CONCORD.

CONCORD lets you engage somebody who steals from your wreck, okay, you can shoot at them, they can now shoot at you. You dock, 15 minutes later, since nothings happened, CONCORD no longer allows fighting between the two of you. Now explain how popping wrecks should allow the "ebil highsec piwate" to KEEP his ability to attack the carebear?

Doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, or a game mechanic standpoint. Sounds to me like CCP needs to patch that up, or keep awarding carebears their ships back when somebody uses that as an exploit.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:21:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Zanaraxtarus
So, if we want it classed as an exploit (or fixed) then EVERYONE needs to abuse this mechanic on a DAILY basis!


Hate to burst your bubble, but it does get used EVERY DAY...FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS

Anyway, CCP have more pressing matters, like making a 3D dress for you to look pretty in when you walk in your station waiting out the two hour aggro timer because you shot at somebody taking 'your stuffs'

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:23:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: NoChance Lance

Am I missing something?



Yeah, you're missing that there is NO ownership of items which do not exist and salvage does not exist until a salvager module completes a successful cycle... The item then created (salvage) belongs to the owner of the module which created it...

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:25:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
Hate to burst your bubble


Sarcasm detection failed... Rolling Eyes

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:28:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Aiwha

Doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, or a game mechanic standpoint



I don't think anyone (and I know not myself) is trying to say this makes sense, only that it is how it currently is...

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:31:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum

Stuffz



POSSUM! You are still here.. I wondered how many of the good reads from last year would still be playing.. Was afraid you'd quit when CCP started showing who really matters (anyone attracted by "new shinnies")

Mickey Simon
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:32:00 - [117]
 

Without reading the majority of this topic.

Gj, you used an exploit to kill a mission runner and he got his ship back.

Things that are ******ed about this:

1) The mission runner asking for the ninja to be banned for cheating and having a list of demands. It's just lol.
2) The OP. Seriously. The guy got his ship reimbursed because the ninja used an exploit to get a kill. That sounds like quality pvp right there.
3) The ******s who are all "CRY MORE MISSION RUNNER" and "YOUR TEARS FUEL MY SHIP". Glad you think this sort of risk averse pvp is cool and makes you good at this game or whatever.
4) The exploit itself.

Yes, it should be fixed.
No, it hasn't been fixed yet.
No doubt it's on a similar level of prioritisation as POS bowling (or has that been fixed yet?). Perhaps it occurs for a random reason and it's really hard to find the particular piece of code which does it, or perhaps it's because the code is the same code used for player aggression and it's hard to change without a significant amount of testing which at the moment is not feasible due to stuff which has already been timelined?

Either way, deal with it. As it stands currently ninja's get more kills then they would otherwise, and mission runners get their ships reimbursed slightly more often. It's not perfect, and it'd be better it was a non-issue but having a whinge on the forums about whatever you can whinge about isn't going to change anything in this case.

Daniel Cordova
Posted - 2010.08.12 13:00:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Daniel Cordova on 12/08/2010 13:00:41
Sorry for the noob question, but I'm trying to understand. So someone can keep me aggressed for 2 hours without me doing anything? I'm not following the logic here. If someone else is doing the shooting after the fifteen minutes are up how is it possible that I'm viewed as the aggressor when I'm docked up doing nothing?


Mickey Simon
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2010.08.12 13:22:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Daniel Cordova
Edited by: Daniel Cordova on 12/08/2010 13:00:41
Sorry for the noob question, but I'm trying to understand. So someone can keep me aggressed for 2 hours without me doing anything? I'm not following the logic here. If someone else is doing the shooting after the fifteen minutes are up how is it possible that I'm viewed as the aggressor when I'm docked up doing nothing?



Yes, they can keep you aggressed for 2 hours without you doing anything. That's why it's an exploit.

I think perhaps, the reason it works as it does currently, is that a wreck is a player object - the same as a ship (despite CCP being fine about salvaging). If you shoot a wreck of a person you are not aggressed to, you get a GCC (in hisec/losec) the same as you would if you shot their ship. Perhaps they use the same section of code.

It does need to be fixed, it's pretty broken but at least they're aware of it and are reimbursing players.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.08.12 13:44:00 - [120]
 

Not sure what the argument here is about.

The Senior GM has declared this to be an exploit.

So it's an exploit.

He got his ship back as a result.

The only precedent that was set here is:

Extending an aggression timer via shooting wrecks is an exploit and unintended.


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