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KoffeeKup
Caldari
Gh0st Hunters
Sspectre
Posted - 2010.08.12 03:04:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: KoffeeKup on 12/08/2010 03:09:19
What i think i got out of the story was that who cares on what your racial background and beliefs are, murder doesn't help a situation at all. The obvious bad guys are the Bloody Hand of Matar. What they are now fighting for isn't freedom, it's revenge. And some how they are justifying murder and terrorism because the Ammar believe that the Minmatar are lesser and killed and enslaved there people a few millennium ago. What isn't helping is the hate-mongering of the races. The Bloody Hand of Matar aren't waging war, their using terrorism to control and oppress a race of people by attacking innocents that haven't done squat. That clown never killed a Minmatar in his life, but the Bloody Hand of Matar are too simple to see that. They just see all Ammar as murdering scum, when the real problem is more complex than that.

Another issue is that while this man may be faced with the choice of his daughters murder or the cancellation of his show, there is always another way to fix the problem if he does cancel. The Theology Counsel doesn't need to condemn a man because he needs to save his daughters life. They could always find another man to preform a television show with the same message and purpose as the original.

Judging by what I've seen, Caldari television must suck ass. Much like the meals we give to our troops to boost morale that are "cost effective", and "efficient". And there must be commercials every 2 minutes with even more scatered through out the sitcoms and children programs.

"Hey Billy! what are you playing with?"
"Oh, just my totally awesome brand new Capsuleer Man! On sale at the nearest Toy store near you!
Capsule and other ships sold separately, all toys are made of cheap assed plastic that will break in a few weeks forcing you to buy more toys from us."
"Wow, thats kewl! Wanna mow Mr.Jenkins lawn for money to buy the rest of the toys?"
"Sure"!

Basically the whole god damn show must do that for the entire season and have plots about lemonade stands and running businesses so children would attach "Fun" to work, so the corporations would have an easy to control work force in the future.

Anyway, my point is that stereotyping an entire race because of a few choices a few people made is causing most of the problems in the first place. Most of the Ammar haven't even killed a Minmatar and there are people calling them murderers most don't even have slaves.

Sakura Imoru
Posted - 2010.08.12 05:39:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Sakura Imoru on 12/08/2010 05:39:19
Originally by: KoffeeKup
Edited by: KoffeeKup on 12/08/2010 03:09:19
What i think i got out of the story was that who cares on what your racial background and beliefs are, murder doesn't help a situation at all. The obvious bad guys are the Bloody Hand of Matar. What they are now fighting for isn't freedom, it's revenge. And some how they are justifying murder and terrorism because the Ammar believe that the Minmatar are lesser and killed and enslaved there people a few millennium ago. What isn't helping is the hate-mongering of the races. The Bloody Hand of Matar aren't waging war, their using terrorism to control and oppress a race of people by attacking innocents that haven't done squat. That clown never killed a Minmatar in his life, but the Bloody Hand of Matar are too simple to see that. They just see all Ammar as murdering scum, when the real problem is more complex than that.

Another issue is that while this man may be faced with the choice of his daughters murder or the cancellation of his show, there is always another way to fix the problem if he does cancel. The Theology Counsel doesn't need to condemn a man because he needs to save his daughters life. They could always find another man to preform a television show with the same message and purpose as the original.


The actions of the Bloody Hand/Heart are not the only thing to consider here (besides: There has only be a threat to kill his daughter, if they actually kill her or not is not mentioned in this chronicle). Is also about how innocent these children really are. Just remember that sponsor's girl, which renamed a slave "Mr. Wayward" just for the fun of it, taking away his very last dignity.

Miss Connolly
Public Relations Corp
Posted - 2010.08.12 15:10:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Miss Connolly on 12/08/2010 15:15:12
Edited by: Miss Connolly on 12/08/2010 15:13:13
Originally by: Azura Noctis
Excellent read, very engaging and well put together. Still....to choose faith over family, especially for the situation presented...people you love are everything. Parents should never sacrifice their children for anything..


What is the point of having your child grow up in a world where the word of God is not followed to the letter? The death of his daughter is a small sacrifice to make if it insures that a million other children will grow up with a proper sense of faith and strong believe in God. You can't give in to Minmatar terrorists and other such scum (profanity filter ftw) - no matter the cost.

Or to quote Star Trek: If I had to chose between loyalty towards the state or loyalty towards a family member then the state wins every time. Wink

Amarr Victor! Twisted Evil

Edit: hello ******ed profanity filter... why not start filtering all 3-letter combinations that might be offensive to all the 10 year olds that play EVE, even if those 3 letters are part of another word. Oh, wait. Mad

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.08.13 10:35:00 - [34]
 

Nice Chron.

Stylistically elegant, with the juxtaposition of the cheerishness of a clown (albeit a mass-indoctrinating one: imagine Ronald McDonald trying to teach you which political party you should vote, and we're close to "Dr. Adad") and the many tragedies of the man behind him.

A failed marriage, a kidnapped kid he can't rescue, a friend and colleague killed by the same thugs that are threatening him, and a solid faith that looks much less solid every day.

Nice slice of a grim world, where everyone is a powerless pawn.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.08.13 11:57:00 - [35]
 

I think it's fairly obvious Cherall is a man who doesn't actually believe in God anymore, but is too much of a coward to admit it. From the disjoint between his actions (fervent prayer, continuing with the show) and his thoughts and emotions (crying, searching for the face of his child in the crowd) it seems he's a man who believes in belief, but doesn't actually believe. I get the sense that this isn't the first time he's chosen faith over those close to him, which is probably the reason why he and his wife were divorced. What he truly wants to do is save his child and comfort his ex-wife (damn the Theology Council, damn the consequences!) but he hasn't got the strength of character to follow through with it - something I think, at the end of the chronicle, he deeply regrets.

His daughter will almost certainly die, his wife will quite probably die as well and he will be left a broken, empty man running a child indoctrination racket for a religion he doesn't even believe in.

Brutal, man. ****ing brutal.

Commander Whitford
Caldari
Infensus Consilium
Posted - 2010.08.13 16:51:00 - [36]
 

This clown creeps me out. More than they usually do...

Monistat Seven
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 17:53:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Katrina Bekers


A failed marriage, a kidnapped kid he can't rescue, a friend and colleague killed by the same thugs that are threatening him, and a solid faith that looks much less solid every day.

Nice slice of a grim world, where everyone is a powerless pawn.



After reading the Chron, and this post... it's Friday the 13th... I think I'll just stay docked today.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2010.08.14 00:17:00 - [38]
 

While a lot of people are going "Boo Minmatar!" after reading this chron, I must say it only goes to show how all four empires are capable of horrible things. Yes, the Bloody Hand are a group of terrorists and do bad things, but then every day slavers capture Minmatar children as well (and do worse things than kill them). My point is, this is EVE, and horrible things are happening. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys". The Amarr make concessions to the Minmatar by freeing all ninth-generation slaves....while they continue to enslave more Minmatar to keep their stock up. Similarly, Matari terrorists kill innocents. It's a horrible cluster.

So no, not Amarr victor! More like dark and twisted world victor!


AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:15:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Mort Eveson
Love it.

Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Not...really how I pictured Amarr media to be like at all

Must be Gallente cultural permutation Confused


What better way to indoctrinate children?


All religions brainwash children...should come as no surprise.

Apollyonne
Posted - 2010.08.14 14:53:00 - [40]
 

and so, in order to better fight evil, the Bloody Hands become evil themselves, thus giving the Amarr moral ammunition.

[sigh] "Oh when will they ever learn?" {from a song that was current in my misspent youth 8-) }

Nicola Souwaso
Posted - 2010.08.14 20:52:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Nicola Souwaso on 14/08/2010 20:53:07
Originally by: Apollyonne
[sigh] "Oh when will they ever learn?"


They won't. Sad but true. Galactic (and also planetary, I assume) in large parts consists of people repeating their predecessors' errors. You could say the have a good memory.

Magnus Nordir
Caldari
Nordir Industries
Posted - 2010.08.15 00:38:00 - [42]
 

Sure is RP in here. An excellent chronicle.

Shinah Myst
Starrust
Posted - 2010.08.15 16:48:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Grideris
It went from "Hmm.." to "Ah some insights to how "entertainment" in the Amarr empire goes". Then it went to Shocked.

Same thing. Exceptionally well written for such a short story.

Anroe Cord
Posted - 2010.08.16 21:06:00 - [44]
 

Really nice read. Interesting tie in between what he was teaching the children that day and his child's own kidnapping.

Yuzuki Katayanagi
The Tempest Blood
Posted - 2010.08.17 13:31:00 - [45]
 

First, I have deep sympathy for any child having to lose his/her life over something that they have not yet had the choice of supporting. But turning against the Republic, and sympathising with the Amarr people while they continue to enslave our people, thinking breathing human beings, is outrageous.

Those Caldari and Gallentians trying to speak up from moral high grounds should reconsider where they themselves are standing. Gallentians value freedom above all, how hard would you fight to free your brethren from slavery? And Caldari, you worship money above all, and given the right price you yourself would have murdered that child without any cause! Would it please the whole of New Eden if we give up and hand our children over to the Empire?

Before you accuse the Republic of anything, imagine to yourself how you would feel if a race's most treasured belief is that you are inferiour, and that you had to become their slaves. What reason is there for a slave in a world that has machines to do all the work, other than the show of power.

The sooner the Amarr people learns that slavery is wrong, the sooner this war will end. I fear however that this will never happen!


Morta Milme
Posted - 2010.08.18 13:36:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: GregoriusAtlas
Originally by: Nie'eine Hier
is a good story
but NO , no man in universe should sacrifice his child for a god . **** the promisses , the heavens and all religious **** about it. My children are the holy teritory i don't want to share with no gods in the universe .
there is no other true love in all universe than the love of your children , for that we have to fight till the end


The purpose of life is to do Godís will and finally to be reunited with God . The sacrifice of the child was not an utter destruction of the child but the exact opposite . It is sad that the child had to be redeemed as a martyr in sufferance , but hey what is sufferance if you get in return eternal glory ?

**** the promises of God ? Oh really ? This tells me you either set yourself above God or deny him . It changes nothing the reward is hell .

How can your children be holy territory if you donít believe in the existence of God / holiness ? This is a contradiction in terms . You donít need to share your children , God will take them regardless of your petty efforts .

How do you know that there is no other love greater then to love your children ? If God exists then your statement is false because he sets the rules not you . If he does not exist then it is just your word / thought / idea against the words of others . Why should you be right and not someone else who thinks otherwise ? Regardless of the possibilities your statement is false .



I just dont get this. How can you even start to think about the reasons God might have for making a decision. This is an entity that created another entity, so his/her intelligence would reach a level we cant even imagine. If god would actually created a heaven and a hell, he would base his/her decision on wether to send a soul to hell or heaven, based on what that perticular person does. But how would he make that decision? We could only guess... My best guess? He would judge you on if you THINK you're making the right decision, wether in the view of the rest of the people would be the right one or not shouldnt matter. So in this case i'd say they all still go to heaven, given the fact that they do what they think is right.

But hey, what do i know, i'm deffinetly not as intelligent as god.

foiekaj
Caldari
MASS
Posted - 2010.08.19 18:03:00 - [47]
 

I don't understand this general notion that the 'Bleeding Hearts of Matar' should be completely vilified for their actions.

If this was the work of one individual, then there is a fairly high probability for that one person being mentally unstable, in which case antagonising them wouldn't be beyond reason.
On the other hand, it takes a hell (no pun intended) of a lot of more than just one individual's madness to create an entire organisation - with many individuals pulling in the same direction - that would commit an act conventionally considered monstrous.
The probability that all of them have inherently delusional outlooks on life is pretty damn low. It's more likely that many of them would - in different circumstances - be just as outraged at the thought of an innocent child falling victim at the hands of political war as the rest of you.
If that is the case, you have to analyse the possible reasons for why an entire group of people would consider supporting such actions. What are the variables? The most obvious two to consider are the environment, and personal experience.

I'll throw a hypothetical your way; and please note that I am not alleging this scenario to be fact, but rather trying to highlight how perceptions can change, ours as well as theirs.

If you had lost your entire family to slavery (your parents, your spouse, and your children), you knew that at least 3 of your loved ones had fallen victim to brutal murder at the hands of a race of people that hold your entire civilisation and everything you hold dear in contempt, and your entire purpose seemed to have been drained out of your very soul - to the point that you wander around aimlessly every day - would you not fight?

And if you would, would you not consider one child's life worth no more than your enemy's enslavement, murder and destruction of your past and future? Would you not be willing to take a chance and compromise 'humanity' on a relatively small scale for the freedom of your loved ones, or at the very least, to prevent future generations from suffering what you have?

It is the very 'black and white' emotive anger in this thread towards this Minmatar terrorist organisation that will prolong death and delay a peaceful resolution. There are always (at least) two sides to every story.

Yuzuki Katayanagi
The Tempest Blood
Posted - 2010.08.20 05:50:00 - [48]
 

foiekaj: Thank you, I am glad to see that everybody isn't turning their backs on Minmatar. I agree with your comment completely.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.08.20 08:19:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: foiekaj
If this was the work of one individual, then there is a fairly high probability for that one person being mentally unstable, in which case antagonising them wouldn't be beyond reason.
On the other hand, it takes a hell (no pun intended) of a lot of more than just one individual's madness to create an entire organisation - with many individuals pulling in the same direction - that would commit an act conventionally considered monstrous.
The probability that all of them have inherently delusional outlooks on life is pretty damn low. It's more likely that many of them would - in different circumstances - be just as outraged at the thought of an innocent child falling victim at the hands of political war as the rest of you. [...]

Hypothesis: large groups of people cannot be mad all together, all at the same time and commit (or "let happen") heinous acts.

Thesis: you don't know past century's history.

Proof: an Internet meme, which I will not utter here (for the sake of talking about this Chronicle and not some large group of people who were able to share the same madness and let horrible things happen...).

foiekaj
Caldari
MASS
Posted - 2010.08.20 12:17:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: foiekaj on 20/08/2010 13:10:42
Originally by: Katrina Bekers

Hypothesis: large groups of people cannot be mad all together, all at the same time and commit (or "let happen") heinous acts.

Thesis: you don't know past century's history.

Proof: an Internet meme, which I will not utter here (for the sake of talking about this

Chronicle and not some large group of people who were able to share the same madness and let horrible things happen...).


I know it very well, in fact. In another world, my grandparents were one of the first to suffer at the hands of the evil you referenced to.

The historic reference you have made involves a very large body of people, all populated within one nation. Their grandchildren and great-grandchildren now occupy the very land they once did when they had supported, coordinated and committed acts considered horrendous and inhumane by any rational observer.
Now? That very nation has a fairly progressive collective social philosophy.

Has the DNA; the blood that flows through the veins of that nation changed so dramatically over two generations? Impossible. It is the environment that has changed, not the people within it.

The main point of my previous post stands. The larger the amount of people involved, the less likely the problem stems from innate abnormal behaviour, and the more likely it is the result of abnormal circumstance.

Let me put it to you this way. Try to imagine ever murdering a young girl.
It's difficult, isn't it?
Not impossible (because nothing is), but the idea is so foreign to most of us that it's extremely difficult to grasp an event where one could rationalise doing so.
In fact, it's probably so difficult for you to comprehend, that the circumstances leading up to the murder would have had to have been incredibly devastating on your own life. So much so, that they would have had to have warped your perception of reality into delusion.

Why has this not been considered by most a possibility? Why is it so much easier to assume these people monsters, rather than victims of something terrible?
I'll tell you why. Because it's far easier to vilify the Minmatarians to protect one's own conscience, than to entertain the possibility that these are tortured beings that deserve to be heard and understood; that deep down, they are no different to the rest of us.

Do you honestly believe it is beyond the Amarrian empire to have ruined their lives?

Yes, part of the motive would most likely have been a search for revenge, but the urge for revenge or to avenge others is felt by all of us at one point or another, so we have no right to distance ourselves from them for that reason.

It's the unwillingness of many outsiders to accept this terrorist organisation as a body of people - who could very well be loving family or loyal friends in different circumstances - that makes it so easy to condemn them.
As for those in this thread who consider the murder to be beyond comprehension, do not believe yourselves immune to irrational behaviour.


Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.08.20 15:25:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: foiekaj
Let me put it to you this way. Try to imagine ever murdering a young girl.
It's difficult, isn't it?

Yup. Rather difficult for the player behind this character. Far less to the self-righteous but merciless demigoddess of the skies in her flying citadels of doom (at your choice, battleships or capital ships). But I get the point.
Quote:
Do you honestly believe it is beyond the Amarrian empire to have ruined their lives?

I honestly believe that the background here is a fairly clear one (as opposed to "who started the hostilities between jews and arabs?" to keep going on minefieldish RL comparisons). Amarrians started to plunder and pillage, and Minmatar are clearly victims, at the very start of known fictional history between the two ethnic groups.

But being on the reason side once doesn't mean you will stay there forever, regardless of what you do to "right the wrong". You may become the monster you're fighting - Nietzsche ftw. And often you not only become the same monster, but an even nastier beast, overreacting while riding on your moral high ground.

Your (wrong, IMHO) hypothesis may have a corollary, which I would say correct: given any large group of people who is the victim of some deep injustice, there's a very significant chance of turning that group into doers of same-level or deeper injustice themselves.

Welcome to human history. If you're new, take a seat and enjoy the show.

foiekaj
Caldari
MASS
Posted - 2010.08.20 17:18:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: foiekaj on 20/08/2010 17:31:20
Originally by: Katrina Bekers

Welcome to human history. If you're new, take a seat and enjoy the show.


Heh. You brought human history into the equation. I just ran with it.

Originally by: Katrina Bekers
But being on the reason side once doesn't mean you will stay there forever, regardless of what you do to "right the wrong". You may become the monster you're fighting - Nietzsche ftw. And often you not only become the same monster, but an even nastier beast, overreacting while riding on your moral high ground.



This isn't at all about who is right and who is wrong for me. Ignoring the flaws in the philosophy behind 'right' and 'wrong' for moment (that's for another discussion), you cannot measure and compare degrees of wrong without knowing the exact circumstances behind each action. Because we don't know those details in this specific case (ie the histories and motives of those who were involved), we are in no position to claim the murder of this girl to be barbaric. We cannot criticise the lack of morality in this instance for that reason.

As for my 'hypothesis' being wrong, I struggle to understand how it could be. Perhaps it would help if you were to actually point out why you believe it is.

Are you suggesting that there is a higher probability that the murder of the girl is the result innate abnormal behaviour, and not the end result of a chain of events that has influenced the terrorists perceptions?

Are you also suggesting that it is unlikely that sane and moral beings can be corrupted by their personal experiences within their unique environments?

Originally by: Katrina Bekers

given any large group of people who is the victim of some deep injustice, there's a very significant chance of turning that group into doers of same-level or deeper injustice themselves.


Based on the 'corollary hypothesis' you came up with, it doesn't sound like you are arguing the above at all, but at the same time you were making a contradictory suggestion in your previous post. I struggle to understand what your position actually is.

Edit: In the end, the point I'm trying to make is that you cannot prove - based on the information we have - that you would not have done the exact same thing the Minmatar terrorists did, because you don't know what the people within that organisation have gone through, nor have you experienced it.

Jonathan Mcarthur
Caldari
Stargazer Exploration Company
Sundiver Technology Diversified
Posted - 2010.08.21 00:34:00 - [53]
 

I'm kind of curious what's up with the picture in the chronicle. Because Amarrian skin tone is supposed to, at least in my mind to be olivish to golden tint, while it seems like most of the kids there are half caldari/half amarr. I don't know, but I don't think I like how they portrayed the kids esp. how they demonized them in there, excitement.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2010.08.21 12:34:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Mcarthur
I'm kind of curious what's up with the picture in the chronicle. Because Amarrian skin tone is supposed to, at least in my mind to be olivish to golden tint, while it seems like most of the kids there are half caldari/half amarr. I don't know, but I don't think I like how they portrayed the kids esp. how they demonized them in there, excitement.
It's a projected screen, not a direct look at the children. The color is evidently a bit off.

The Slug
Posted - 2010.08.22 11:21:00 - [55]
 

I'm writing a film script for eve. Where do I send it for approval?

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron
Posted - 2010.08.24 08:25:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: foiekaj
Heh. [...]

Replied. In private.

o7

Drake Sherrin
Posted - 2010.08.26 13:59:00 - [57]
 

"Remember, unlike Mr. Wayward, your slave is a real person..."

... Just not enough of a "real person" to deserve freedom or the dignity not to be treated like, at best, a spoilt brat's favorite pet.

And just like every other bunch of religious fundies in history, the Ammar have constructed their religion so that it's okay for them to enslave the Minmatar, because God doesn't love the Minmatar as much as He does them, so the Minmatar deserve everything they do to them.

In conclusion: **** the clown, **** the kids, and *** the entire Amarr culture.

Hugh Cammes
Posted - 2010.08.28 03:44:00 - [58]
 

I love the EVE Chronicles!!! This one was fantastic! It shows how disgusting the Amarr are. The little girl disgusted me the most. "Favorite slave..." Amarr are a blemmish on the face of the Universe


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