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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2010.08.11 11:59:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
shouldn't have taken the "ships flown" snapshot the day after Tyrannis was released... Rolling Eyes



Guess what, you shouldn't use snapshot statistics at all! They are utterly useless! And if they are used as the metrics for making decisions on, they are quite dangerous as snapshot statistics hide so many hidden variables that it is just not funny any more. There is one golden rule in statistics: the law of large numbers. That is to say, that the larger your sample size the more accurate the statistic you derive from it. A snapshot has a sample size of one! As such, they are entirely and utterly unreliable. They say nothing.

This is most visible with the population and ship statistics. Both are in essence based on snapshot statistics. In the case of population a comparison is made between one snapshot and another, then some conclusion is drawn from that. Meaningless! If determining if an account is a second or third account is difficult or impossible to do with some accuracy: just don't do it. Simply accept it and instead take the number of accounts over time, and measure the time spend actually logged on over that period. That is an accurate measure, and trends there are likely to be interesting to study. Even a total time spend logged on over all accounts over a substantial period of time is interesting.

Once you've setup that metric, you can expand it with the types of ships flown during that period. Session changes for ship changes should show up in the database, and now you can calculate the total time spend in each class/type of ship over all accounts over a substantial period of time. Who is in what ship at downtime on some randomly picked time is meaningless in comparison.

The same for time spend where. Once you can cycle over all accounts you can correlate it against time spend where. Thus you can provide an analysis of total type spend in 0.0/low/high sec over a substantial period of time with some accuracy. In fact, you can also determine the sub-set of logged on accounts that switch from one of these classes of location, and investigate individual trends there.

All this is not rocket science. The data being worked on is a backup. It is static. And it contains all this information, as all these events are, or should be, logged. And armed with these statistics you can move away from such outrageous claims that the Primea is the most used ship in EVE, towards saying something about player retention, trends in the number of hours spend actually playing EVE (instead of just the amount of money players spend on EVE, which, given the snapshot nature of the statistic is meaningless again), and you can differentiate between accounts that are actively used with the ones that are obviously passive.

You can even extend the statistic to differentiate between the activities these accounts engage in while logged on (PvE/PvP/production/mining for example), and differentiate where this happens (0.0/low/high sec), and in what ship. These are statistics vital for understanding what goes on in EVE, and what effect changes to the environment have. The fact that none of these, quite simple may I remind you, statistics are calculated is disheartening to say the least. It shows to me that CCP has no real knowledge of what goes on in their own game, and that they are basically making changes blind.

Collecting accurate and well-thought out statistics on your product is just one step in doing responsible business analysis. The fact that this is apparently ignored just mesmerises me. It is hubris to think that because of the scale of the EVE economy you can just meddle with it without actually knowing what goes on in it. It is plain inexcusable to do so. Capitalism is a robust self-adaptive system, but we should all know by now that it is by no means entirely resistant to failure.

Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:37:00 - [62]
 

does your 20T/month from bounties number include the amount of isk generated by selling sleeper tags to npc buy orders? If not, would be interesting to see numbers on that in the next QEN.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:01:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Bomberlocks on 11/08/2010 15:03:20
Quoting myself for truth...
Originally by: Bomberlocks
From the QEN, page 11, on ships in space:
Retriever 9,031 - 1.26% increase
Bestower 8,496 - 1.18% increase
Badger Mark II 8,326 - 1.16% increase

.....

If these numbers are a snapshot of ships during one downtime and if a significant portion of them genuinely are part of trial account courier or mining macro botnets, what does that mean for the total percentage of eve online at any one time? Given that the current average of total people online during the week during european late evening/US late afternoon hovers somewhere between 38000 and 44000 online, does this mean that between 30% to 50% of eve are just trial account bots at any one time?

Has CCP ever taken a snapshot of ship types during uptime?

Fake edit: Has CCP ever run a simple check on transactions, i.e. ISK transfer from trial accounts to activated accounts?

Enquiring minds want to know.

raukosen
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:32:00 - [64]
 

Is 30% of the people you see in space in Bestowers? Rolling Eyes

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.11 18:38:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: raukosen
Is 30% of the people you see in space in Bestowers? Rolling Eyes
Depending where you are, yes. I have no idea how accurate this is, but it's been mentioned by others and I've seen it often enough to wonder.

And I can even do that without rolling my eyes. \0/

Dolm De'Mourne
Posted - 2010.08.11 21:14:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Edited by: Bomberlocks on 11/08/2010 15:03:20
Quoting myself for truth...
Originally by: Bomberlocks
From the QEN, page 11, on ships in space:
Retriever 9,031 - 1.26% increase
Bestower 8,496 - 1.18% increase
Badger Mark II 8,326 - 1.16% increase

.....

If these numbers are a snapshot of ships during one downtime and if a significant portion of them genuinely are part of trial account courier or mining macro botnets, what does that mean for the total percentage of eve online at any one time? Given that the current average of total people online during the week during european late evening/US late afternoon hovers somewhere between 38000 and 44000 online, does this mean that between 30% to 50% of eve are just trial account bots at any one time?

Has CCP ever taken a snapshot of ship types during uptime?

Fake edit: Has CCP ever run a simple check on transactions, i.e. ISK transfer from trial accounts to activated accounts?

Enquiring minds want to know.


Not sure if I'm reading it wrong but are the percentages you marked as increases not actually percentage of the total ships flown on the graph you cited? If so that means only 3.6% of people were flying those at the time of the snapshot, if a snapshot or series of snapshots were used (I may have missed the portion where that was specified). As bot players would be expected to be more active than regular players then the percentages mentioned don't seem too alarming, but I in no way want to insinuate that even in those numbers they don't have a negative affect on the game as a whole.

Just asking for clarification.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.08.11 23:01:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Takseen on 11/08/2010 23:01:19
Originally by: Bomberlocks


1. Note how almost all the Bestowers' pilots have names like "uhmfghjk" or some other random set of characters.
2. Note how they almost all have the same fittings: Expanded Cargo Holds and Inertia Stabilizers.
3. Note how they almost all have courier mission cargo.
4. Note how almost none of them will respond to a request to convo.
5. Note how most of the pilots are 14 days old or younger.

Result:
The Bestowers are part of an extremely large courier mission macro botnet running 23/7 on trial accounts.




"Amarr Industrial (4) Skill at operating Amarr industrial ships. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts."

They may be macro couriers, but they ain't running on trial accounts.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.11 23:47:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Takseen


They may be macro couriers, but they ain't running on trial accounts.


They're running on plexes, while training PI skills and exhumer training. I wouldn't be surprised if they did that on other characters also on those accounts, to sell those at a later point in time.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.12 05:42:00 - [69]
 

From what I recall those snapshot are done during DT (to avoud problems with the database) and the query check in what kind of ship all the active account characters are.

I think that doing it that way will give a higher number of industrials that checking the usage of ships during an entire day as people often move stuff around just before logging off.

For example some miner after a period of mining and jetcanning would go and gather the minerals in a few run of a industrial before leaving the game, traders and missionrunners selling the loot/manufactured stuff will tend to do that as the last thing in the day and so on.

While not a major factor it will skew slightly the values.

BTW it is:
8.496 bestowers (1,18%)
8.326 badger II (1.16%)
of 716.990 characters.

Considering the number of hauling alts "sleeping" in them there is no reason to run in circles shouting "the world is falling".

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:01:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne
...
Originally by: Bomberlocks
From the QEN, page 11, on ships in space:
Retriever 9,031 - 1.26% increase
Bestower 8,496 - 1.18% increase
Badger Mark II 8,326 - 1.16% increase

.....

...

Not sure if I'm reading it wrong but are the percentages you marked as increases not actually percentage of the total ships flown on the graph you cited? If so that means only 3.6% of people were flying those at the time of the snapshot, if a snapshot or series of snapshots were used (I may have missed the portion where that was specified). As bot players would be expected to be more active than regular players then the percentages mentioned don't seem too alarming, but I in no way want to insinuate that even in those numbers they don't have a negative affect on the game as a whole.

Just asking for clarification.
You're right about the "increases"; they aren't increases, only percentages. Change was in the next column and wasn't in percent.

However, as a total of the active ships, the percentages aren't in any way accurate either. The vast majority of those are the players' second and third accounts.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:04:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Takseen
Edited by: Takseen on 11/08/2010 23:01:19
Originally by: Bomberlocks


1. Note how almost all the Bestowers' pilots have names like "uhmfghjk" or some other random set of characters.
2. Note how they almost all have the same fittings: Expanded Cargo Holds and Inertia Stabilizers.
3. Note how they almost all have courier mission cargo.
4. Note how almost none of them will respond to a request to convo.
5. Note how most of the pilots are 14 days old or younger.

Result:
The Bestowers are part of an extremely large courier mission macro botnet running 23/7 on trial accounts.




"Amarr Industrial (4) Skill at operating Amarr industrial ships. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts."

They may be macro couriers, but they ain't running on trial accounts.
You're absolutely right.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:09:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Takseen


They may be macro couriers, but they ain't running on trial accounts.


They're running on plexes, while training PI skills and exhumer training. I wouldn't be surprised if they did that on other characters also on those accounts, to sell those at a later point in time.

Might very well be. I was wrong about the trial accounts, but they most definitely are running on macros - they don't interact with players at all, and there's usually a whole bunch of them in a single system, all with the same fit and mission cargo.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 07:17:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
From what I recall those snapshot are done during DT (to avoud problems with the database) and the query check in what kind of ship all the active account characters are.

I think that doing it that way will give a higher number of industrials that checking the usage of ships during an entire day as people often move stuff around just before logging off.

For example some miner after a period of mining and jetcanning would go and gather the minerals in a few run of a industrial before leaving the game, traders and missionrunners selling the loot/manufactured stuff will tend to do that as the last thing in the day and so on.

While not a major factor it will skew slightly the values.

BTW it is:
8.496 bestowers (1,18%)
8.326 badger II (1.16%)
of 716.990 characters.

Considering the number of hauling alts "sleeping" in them there is no reason to run in circles shouting "the world is falling".

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?

Akrasjel Lanate
Gallente
Naquatech Conglomerate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.12 12:34:00 - [74]
 

Nice.
And someone mentioned it that it would be great that you could put the activity of players in PI, looking by high, low and null space in next QEN.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.12 14:54:00 - [75]
 

Why wont you show how many titans were made during that time instead of supercarriers? Or the rarest ship in eve would be so popular you would see 3x more of them than Blackops?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.12 18:03:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?


Useless way to test.

I have a lot of R&D alts, some of them are still running courier mission for standing.

They do the courier missions in the background, they don't reply to convo, I don't care if you bump them as they I don't even you doing that most of the time.

From your "test" they are macros.

In reality all that you have tested is that they are autopiloting AFK.




Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.12 20:02:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bomberlocks

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?


Useless way to test.

I have a lot of R&D alts, some of them are still running courier mission for standing.

They do the courier missions in the background, they don't reply to convo, I don't care if you bump them as they I don't even you doing that most of the time.

From your "test" they are macros.

In reality all that you have tested is that they are autopiloting AFK.




Are your "alts" warping to zero? Do you have 15 "alts" in one system? Are your alts in Bestowers?

I'm pretty sure these are Macroers.

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.12 20:40:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bomberlocks

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?


Useless way to test.

I have a lot of R&D alts, some of them are still running courier mission for standing.

They do the courier missions in the background, they don't reply to convo, I don't care if you bump them as they I don't even you doing that most of the time.

From your "test" they are macros.

In reality all that you have tested is that they are autopiloting AFK.




Are your "alts" warping to zero? Do you have 15 "alts" in one system? Are your alts in Bestowers?

I'm pretty sure these are Macroers.


lol owned

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.13 01:24:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Cors
Also keep in mind the altaholics out there.

I have 4 accounts, 12 chars total. But I only pvp with 2 or 3 of them. There are many people who have many alts for industry, cyno's, market, mining and so on that never pvp.


True...but iirc somewhere (maybe Q1 QEN?), it was stated that the average is two accounts per player. Considering that...9% seemed really low. But with Dr. E's clarification the 9% is final blows on a kill, I imagine the PvP participation is quite a lot higher just based on a rough guesstimate about average number of characters on a killmail.



I'm assuming that the percentages are by player activity since I can't think of another metric that makes sense but it seems to me that 32% of people in null sec is a pretty healthy number overall.

These numbers DO support low sec needing another look though.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.13 05:21:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bomberlocks

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?


Useless way to test.

I have a lot of R&D alts, some of them are still running courier mission for standing.

They do the courier missions in the background, they don't reply to convo, I don't care if you bump them as they I don't even you doing that most of the time.

From your "test" they are macros.

In reality all that you have tested is that they are autopiloting AFK.




Are your "alts" warping to zero? Do you have 15 "alts" in one system? Are your alts in Bestowers?

I'm pretty sure these are Macroers.


How do you bump people warping to 0?

I alone no, but 14 other players and I, very probable.

And some of my alts are in bestowers and way the should not be seeing that some of them are Amarr?

Still an useless test.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.13 07:44:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Bomberlocks on 13/08/2010 07:46:14
Edited by: Bomberlocks on 13/08/2010 07:45:01
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bomberlocks

The best thing to do would be to go check it out yourself. If you grab a scanner and cargo scanner and sit on the Olbra/Altrinur gate in the Metropolis region in Minnie hisec, you'll see them for yourself. Try and convo them, or bump their ships out of alignment. As I said above the largest group of the ships (some 39% of the total) in that list are most likely players' second and third accounts, so not really relevant to the ship listings.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but given that the majority of chars are still Caldari and Gallente, one would expect to see Iterons in that list, wouldn't one?


Useless way to test.

I have a lot of R&D alts, some of them are still running courier mission for standing.

They do the courier missions in the background, they don't reply to convo, I don't care if you bump them as they I don't even you doing that most of the time.

From your "test" they are macros.

In reality all that you have tested is that they are autopiloting AFK.




Are your "alts" warping to zero? Do you have 15 "alts" in one system? Are your alts in Bestowers?

I'm pretty sure these are Macroers.


How do you bump people warping to 0?

I alone no, but 14 other players and I, very probable.

And some of my alts are in bestowers and way the should not be seeing that some of them are Amarr?

Still an useless test.

You bump them when they uncloak after jumping, obviously.
Are all your "alts" called "jndflkgh" or some variation of a random keyboard mashing? Do all your "alts" and those of "other players" (lol), fly the same route, in the same system, at the same time?

Are you running a macro network? Because it really sounds like you're doing your best to defend them.

But whatever, if you get your jollies on supporting macros, that's fine by me. Personally, I think it's less of a grind than any other way of making ISK in Eve and can understand those who do it in that context.

Edit: "Venkul"? Romanian, right?.

Swearte Widfarend
Gallente
Aurora Security
Posted - 2010.08.13 15:54:00 - [82]
 

Quote:
The graph shows that compared to January 2009 ... the population in low security space has been declining ...


But there is still no real plan to improve LoSec. Soon it will truly be the vast wasteland of transit between hisec hubs, while the intrepid pirates have to move to nullsec to actually have targets to hunt.

Hi CCP. We want LoSec to matter. People have been asking for a long time. And yet, in your own documented PR report, population in LoSec declines again, year over year.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2010.08.14 02:00:00 - [83]
 

It would be nice to see a nice simple tonnage verses tonnage comperasion dot graph showing what is killing what and the ratio. Might show some interesting facts about ganking and loss ratio in pvp. Also the lack of small ship pvp.


Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2010.08.14 03:12:00 - [84]
 

You're not once mentioning that changes in insurance "removed price floor", which is not true. They have set a new floor, that is.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.14 07:46:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 14/08/2010 07:54:06
Originally by: Bomberlocks
You bump them when they uncloak after jumping, obviously.
Are all your "alts" called "jndflkgh" or some variation of a random keyboard mashing? Do all your "alts" and those of "other players" (lol), fly the same route, in the same system, at the same time?

Are you running a macro network? Because it really sounds like you're doing your best to defend them.

But whatever, if you get your jollies on supporting macros, that's fine by me. Personally, I think it's less of a grind than any other way of making ISK in Eve and can understand those who do it in that context.

Edit: "Venkul"? Romanian, right?.


So you are changing your foolproof test as it is a fool test? No more bumping people that warp to 0 but bumping them when they stat warp? And again, what it prove?
No one with a bit of experience in EVE will bother protesting people bumping them. If will only gift freee emo tear to the happy griefer.

And your attempt to ad ominem attack are really pathetic.

Venkul is a phonetic transcription of Vencul (with a hard c), a mischievous faerie like creature from nor est Italy folklore.

I simply dislike people trying to pass very faulty "detection" systems as something valid as an excuse to gank ships and feel that they are doing something good.

Say that you want to gank ships and I have no problem, but your system to "detect" a macro is so inefficient that is has no value.

Originally by: Tonto Auri
You're not once mentioning that changes in insurance "removed price floor", which is not true. They have set a new floor, that is.


It is a mobile floor, so no floor at all.

The new floor is the level when so much people leave mining and ratting in the drone regions (both players and macro) that it become impossible to sustain production.

You will see the price swinging around that point, dipping a bit under it when and then getting a decent rise for a period until people restart mining and then going again under it. Good for a speculator that will buy low during the dip and then sell at a higher price but it require careful timing.

ore4all
Caldari
Aqua solara
Posted - 2010.08.14 13:02:00 - [86]
 

low sec sucks need work pay off 0.0 sec good for make cash and wh sec good for make cash and cash in hi sec good not good low sec cost to big no pay need give low sec make time pay for it

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.15 04:58:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
shouldn't have taken the "ships flown" snapshot the day after Tyrannis was released... Rolling Eyes



Guess what, you shouldn't use snapshot statistics at all! They are utterly useless!


Agreed. I pointed this out last time, and said that consumption data (ships destroyed: numbers, types, races) and more detailed pilot skill data (how many HAC pilots? How many logi 4 pilots? logi 5?) would have been useful.

Honestly, I don't intend this as a knock on Dr. Eyegoj(sp?), but a lot of this data is pretty superficial. I can only assume some combination of him having a lot of other responsibilities, and of CCP not wanting to share too much information.

Bomberlocks is totally correct about the botting, and you'd have to be a moron to think that 15 guys in bestowers named sldkfjowiue are anything but bots. People are running mining bots, ratting bots, and now (apparently) courier mission bots. It's a shame, because it dramatically lowers how much purchasing power newer players can reasonably hope to obtain through their efforts, and it makes the game worse overall.

It's no skin off my particular nose, of course, I do just fine, but it does seem like something that should be addressed...

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.15 07:58:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/08/2010 07:59:15

Originally by: wr3cks

Bomberlocks is totally correct about the botting, and you'd have to be a moron to think that 15 guys in bestowers named sldkfjowiue are anything but bots. People are running mining bots, ratting bots, and now (apparently) courier mission bots. It's a shame, because it dramatically lowers how much purchasing power newer players can reasonably hope to obtain through their efforts, and it makes the game worse overall.



People has been running courier bots for ages (at least from 2008 from the posts in the forum). I am not arguing against that, I am arguing against the "foolproof" detection methods people use identify macros.

The only one that really work without very long observation of the same character is killing the ship and seeing if it repeat the same cycle endlessly even without it. But that work only for very basic bots.

The usual methods suggested are only pathetic excuses for people that want to kill ships but would only do it for a "good" cause.

EVE is EVE, kill the ship and be happy, but don't try to appear a paladin of justice.

wr3cks
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2010.08.15 09:04:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/08/2010 07:59:15

Originally by: wr3cks

Bomberlocks is totally correct about the botting, and you'd have to be a moron to think that 15 guys in bestowers named sldkfjowiue are anything but bots. People are running mining bots, ratting bots, and now (apparently) courier mission bots. It's a shame, because it dramatically lowers how much purchasing power newer players can reasonably hope to obtain through their efforts, and it makes the game worse overall.



People has been running courier bots for ages (at least from 2008 from the posts in the forum). I am not arguing against that, I am arguing against the "foolproof" detection methods people use identify macros.

The only one that really work without very long observation of the same character is killing the ship and seeing if it repeat the same cycle endlessly even without it. But that work only for very basic bots.

The usual methods suggested are only pathetic excuses for people that want to kill ships but would only do it for a "good" cause.

EVE is EVE, kill the ship and be happy, but don't try to appear a paladin of justice.


Why do we need to be "foolproof"? Don't people kill ships for fun and profit all the time? Is this any less stupid than role playing (no offense, it's just not my cup of tea)? Or hulkageddon?

Anyways, to bring it back to the OP, I think our discussion has inadvertently lead us to uncover the truth that macroing/botting is a large part of the EVE economy.

Here's my previous post about it (forgive the self-reference; I swear I'm only a little pretentious IRL).

This guy's idea sounds smart too.

Some people don't think CCP actually cares to solve the problem, that they tolerate it for the most part and ban the RMTers and the most egregious offenders.

And other people just think I'm wasting electrons.

Whatcha gonna do?

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.08.15 14:01:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: QEN, Q2 2010
Before the NPC orders were withdrawn from the market, there was considerable hoarding of certain planetary commodities, a matter which the Council of Stellar Management recently raised with CCP. The issue will be analyzed further and discussed in more detail in a dev blog in Q3 of this year.
Whether trolling or damage control, this paragraph (see p.24) is a completely inadequate means of addressing a dramatic game design and implementation ****-up: the *massive* re-processing of NPC PI-derived goods that, in turn, immediately devalued all fledgling PI extraction and basic processing initiatives.

What the hell were the economically-minded doing during the roll-out planning sessions for Tyrannis? Looking at where to buy their next tropical island vacation home on the backs of EVE subscribers?


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