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Denuo Secus
Posted - 2010.08.08 20:11:00 - [1]
 

...Navy Raven when in comes to EM weak rats?

This is about blitzing lvl4 missions. I know the NM and even the Paladin can do the job but the NM is ugly and the Paladin is a but too skill intense for that particular job imho (I don't want to loot).

So the Navy Raven is considered as the blitzing ship per se. Whats about Amarr? Maybe the Navy Apoc? It shares the range bonus but has more grid for fitting Tachyons. Unfortunately it doesn't have any tracking bonus like the NM. I have no EFT handy atm...did anyone try it?

Thanks.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.08.08 20:23:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Denuo Secus
...Navy Raven when in comes to EM weak rats?

This is about blitzing lvl4 missions. I know the NM and even the Paladin can do the job but the NM is ugly and the Paladin is a but too skill intense for that particular job imho (I don't want to loot).

So the Navy Raven is considered as the blitzing ship per se. Whats about Amarr? Maybe the Navy Apoc? It shares the range bonus but has more grid for fitting Tachyons. Unfortunately it doesn't have any tracking bonus like the NM. I have no EFT handy atm...did anyone try it?


No. Someone has, I'm sure, but Tach 2s on a Navy Apoc combined with 1 Lar and 1 RCU require a +5 implant. I'm just not sure that's efficient in the least.

Also? If you find the NM ugly, well, you're hanging around the wrong crowd.

(Having said that, a Tach abby can work. But only with quite good skills.)

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2010.08.08 20:26:00 - [3]
 

Armageddon for beginners. Abaddons for more "well skilled" players. Apocalypse for "pros."

I have no experience using the Apoc for running missions, so if I make a mistake here people are free to correct me.

From what I understand, Apocs are used primarily to "snipe" missions to death. Just warp in at range, shoot as many as you can, warp out if you have to, warp back in at a different range (using bookmarks you make in the mission as well). Rinse and repeat.
Alternatively, I've seen people tank the every loving crap out of their Apocs and simply try to kite the targets as much as possible, letting drones do the rest.

I should mention that outside of rats that are weak against EM/Thermal damage Amarr ships are somewhat... lacking.

Spartan dax
Posted - 2010.08.08 20:57:00 - [4]
 

Navypocs are easy mode in L4's. Fit pulses, some tank and damage and tracking mods. Works like a charm. Not without drawbacks though. It chews through Scorch like there's no tomorrow and dps is lower than NM's and pallys but still respectable enough to not be considered crap.

VS EM rats I'd take it over a Navy raven any day. Flight time in missions is such a frikkin pain.

Loose the second LAR for a TE and one of the cap rechargers for a TC when you've gotten to know the ship. For some reason the apoc hull just looooves getting stuck on mission gates.

[Apocalypse Navy Issue, Training wheelfit]
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.08 22:28:00 - [5]
 

Navy geddon is your answer. If fighting EM/thermal weak rats, amarr ships are way better. The raven is not really fast, its just easy mode.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.08 22:29:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 08/08/2010 22:31:27
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Armageddon for beginners. Abaddons for more "well skilled" players. Apocalypse for "pros."



Uh?

Apoc was always for noobs due to added range (no need for uber skill), huge cap (no need for maxed cap skills) and huge grid (no need for maxed engineering/awu skills). Also its easiest of the three to overtank with dual LAR mostly due to points above.

Abaddon is 2nd best mission runner for those who dont need range (ergo - can use scorch) but its quite skill intensive especially in cap department.

Arma for beginners? Only if they want to start crippled. This ship deals **** poor damage without t2 heavy drones/sentries (and beginners dont have them) and weak damage without heavily skilled gunnery (rof bonus tied with BS skill) - plus has cap issues in between apoc and aba. Add low grid and its almost impossible to make dual lar (so noob friendly) setup. Arma was always bad mission ship and almost noone used it. Now with Navy Arma its tad better - more grid, more drones, more mids (for cap rechargers) is quite good, but didnt test it myself.

Back to blitzing part (OP): if you dont want nightmare or paladin you are stuck with either raven (cnr) or golem. From t1 ships it rly depends on mission. If rats come close/sit around 45km you can try pulse abaddon with 3 sinks. its cheap and hits hard but can only sport 1x LAR tank. Also needs scorch. Apoc is okish (range bonus) but loses 25% damage bonus over nightmare/paladin/abaddon. In the end id chose paladin or nightmare myself - juggling torps at 60km is annoying and while i did EM heavy missions with pala+golem combo i used golem only to kill close range spawns and pala to kill anything from 30km upwards.

Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Apex United
Posted - 2010.08.08 22:54:00 - [7]
 

Yes, but, they tend to require more in the way of skills than the raven. To give a comparison, I'll post the standard blitzing raven, then compare several ships to it. All cases I will use max skills.

Standard Blitz CNR:
Highs
7 CN cruise launchers (navy ammo)
1 Tractor Beam

Mids
1 large shield booster 2
3 hardener 2's
1 heavy cap booster 2
1 target painter 2

Lows
4 CN BCU's
1 signal amp or other

Rigs
3 Rigor rigs

This ship does 701dps with CN missiles + drone damage, has around a 400dps tank depending upon who you are fighting, and has an explosion radius of 138m when using t1 rigors.

The first ship to compare will be the apocalypse. There are two ways you can fit the apoc - pulses, and beams. Here, I'll show a beam fit:

Highs
8 Megabeam 2's (navy multifrequency)
Mids
1 tracking computer 2
3 cap recharger 2's
Lows
1 LAR 2
3 hardeners
3 IN Heatsinks
Rigs
1 ACR
2 CCC

This ship does 678dps at 47+26km + drones, and has around 350dps tank. It has the instant damage advantage, and the possibility of doing wrecking damage, but it does have to deal with transversal. The one downside is that it is 3% over on CPU, and very tight on PG. Upping this to the navy apoc, you can add a tracking enhancer in the last lowslot, and possibly drop the ACR. Next, a pulse fit:

Highs
8 Megapulse 2
Mids
2 TC 2
2 cap recharger 2's
Lows
1 LAR 2
3 hardeners
3 navy heatsinks
Rigs
3 CCC

This fit does 618 dps at 80km with scorch, or 775dps at 27km with navy multifrequency. Tank is the same as the beam apoc. The tracking is MUCH better however, and having 2 tracking computers makes a huge difference. This one does need a 1% CPU implant with max skills. Upgrading to the navypoc frees up fitting a touch, and you can add another HS or TE if you want.

In both of these cases, we can probably safely conclude that the only way the apoc beats the CNR is if you are fighting at long range, and not counting volleys. However, the Apoc is the only amarr ship that doesn't have a damage bonus, so lets examine the other 2.

The abaddon gets a damage bonus, but it has cap issues. Lets look at 2 fits for it then.

Highs
8 Megabeam 2's (navy multifrequency)
Mids
4 cap recharger 2's
Lows
1 LAR 2
2 hardeners
3 Navy Heatsinks
1 cap power relay
Rigs
1 ACR
2 CCC

This fit does 847dps at 30+20km + drones, and has around 350dps tank. Cap lasts for 3 minutes, but it does have looser fitting than the apoc's above. However, at effective range of 50km, it has to be using X-Ray, which drops its DPS down to 706, which puts it about on par with the apoc and CNR at that range. However, most people state that the abaddon shouldn't be fit with beams, it should be fit with pulses, which would allow the following fit:

Highs
8 Megapulse 2
Mids
2 TC 2
2 Cap recharger 2's
Lows
1 LAR 2
2 Hardener 2's
3 Navy Heatsinks
1 cap power relay 2
Rigs
3 CCC

This fit does 772dps at 58km with scorch, or 968 at 19km with IN Multi. There is enough fitting that you can swap a TC for an afterburner if you want, and cap lasts for 3 minutes. Tank is the same as the beam fit. In this case, unless your targets are orbiting at 10km or less, this ship will probably do better than the CNR against EM weak rats. Of course, if they come in at long range, just hop into the pulse apoc and clean the field that way instead Razz.

The last ship is the geddon. The regular geddon just plain isn't good at mission running, it doesn't have enough fitting, and it doesn't have enough cap. The navy geddon is a whole different story though, and I'll show one fit I like for that as well.

Sentry pulse:
Highs
7 Megapulse 2
Mids
0-1 TC 2
1-2 omnidirectional tracking links
2 cap recharger 2's
Lows
1 LAR 2
3 hardeners
3 Navy Heatsinks
1 cap power relay
Rigs
1 Sentry Damage Augmentor
1 Drone Scope Chip
1 CCC
Drones
5 Guarde 2's

This fit does 1051dps at 52km with scorch, more at closer range. But I've run out of space, so plug it in EFT yourself

Hope this helps

-Arazel

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.08.09 01:20:00 - [8]
 

No Caldari ship can out-DPS a properly fit Nightmare in EM weak missions.

Though the CNR and Golem can come pretty close.

[Raven Navy Issue, Level 4 Mission Blitzer]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Co-Processor II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Domination Target Painter
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Photon Scattering Field II

Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
[empty high slot]

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1
Hobgoblin II x5





Paeniteo
Vengeance Imperium
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.08.09 08:39:00 - [9]
 

Personally I'd recommend getting over your dislike for the looks of the Nightmare. It's the tachs that really sell it for me.
When I first started piloting a Nightmare, I thought I had gone back in time to the days of zero penalty heat sink stacking. It's an absurdly powerful ship (I know I must be sherlock holmes right?). And with Amarr BS 5 I don't even worry about tracking disruptors anymore, they slow me down a little but they don't utterly disable me like they did when I was flying a Navy Apoc.

I have never piloted a Naven since I completely lack any missile skills, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Nightmare turned out to be the better blitzer. Only downside for me is I eat too many cap 800s and occasionally I even run out, but that's probably due to flaws in my fit more than anything else. Still working out that little kink Embarassed

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.09 11:57:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 09/08/2010 11:56:57
Confirming that the Nightmare is ridiculously good vs EM weak rats. My NM is much faster vs Bloods, and a fair bit faster vs Sansha (kill the TDing ships quick).

However the NM is a little less "semi-AKF" friendly, as you sometimes have to pay attention to things like transversal in some missions. But for blitzing your way through EM missions it cant be beat.

You also have to pay more attention to your capacitor, because continually firing tachyon beams uses a shocking amount of cap. For this reason, I use faction tachs. The damage is a tiny bit less (I only trained large beam spec 3), but the cap use is a lot less.

The Nightmare really rewards using a rack of +5% hardwirings. From memory, I use +5% turret damage, +5% large enery turret damage, +5% tracking, +5% cap regen, +5% cap amount. The way to look at these implants is that 4 out of 5 of them improve your capacitor performance; the first two increase the damage per point of cap used; you need fewer shots, so you burn less cap. The extra tracking is just handy for those missions where there are zillions of frigate rats that need to be murdered.

Tip: Put your tachs in to 2 groups of 2. 2 tachs are often enough to 1-shot battlecruiser rats.

I would recommend 2x T1 and 1x T2 CCC rigs. Most of your cap use is by the lasers, so Core Defense Capacitor safeguards aren't as much use as on a ravenkind.

With a rack of +5% implants and the T2 rig, you can completely avoid the nead for fancy deadspace midslot items. Faction Heatsinks and Tachyons are all the pimpage a Nightmare really needs.

KardelSharpeye
Gallente
The Watchtower
Posted - 2010.08.09 14:42:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Arazel Chainfire
stuff

You're off, you're not gona use faction missiles on the cnr meanwhile faction crystals are completely viable oh and eft doesn't accound for hit quality which given you're shooting in optimal is increasing dps.

Jien Tararr
Posted - 2010.08.09 16:32:00 - [12]
 

Navy Apoc is nice. NM is awesome. Standard Apoc is for noobs, (not a bad thing, its just easy for beginners/low sp), and for those that don't want to fork out for a NM you use a best named Tacyhon Abbadon. Stick one ACR I rig and a PDU II for the power needed for Tachyons + juicy cap.

Forget the numbers in EFT and try the ships. I have zero trouble with tracking or cap in an abbadon because I have decent skills and a simple tactic, like everyone states you need to use the ship. Dont use it with with skills at IV in drones, cap and gun skills and wonder why you struggle.

95% of level IV missions go like this...

Warp to mission gate, enter pocket 1. Move away from pocket at a mighty 111ms, aggro entire pocket, reduce entire pocket to ash as they head directly towards you meaning no tracking issues, including tiny frigs.

Once you have a few ships left, head towards the next gate watching the last ships pop. (Experience tells you when to do this to not waste time).

Rince and repeat. Anything that gets too close gets chomped by drones.

EM Rat missions will often have the Rats so far out that only tacyhons can handle them and 2 shot them at 100KM, without an AB fit. I dont even bother with named crystals, the damage bonus from a baddon with BS V is plenty. Lets not forget the bonus tank.

PS Short range weapon systems are better suited to PVP where MWD allow you to close the range quickly. Sure Large pulse with scorch is nice, but only at its specific range.

RentableMuffin
Posted - 2010.08.09 17:23:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Tip: Put your tachs in to 2 groups of 2. 2 tachs are often enough to 1-shot battlecruiser rats.


better yet don't even group your weapons, I've had so many 3 or 5 volleys, and not to mention 1 shotting frigs

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.08.09 17:29:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Denuo Secus

Whats about Amarr? Maybe the Navy Apoc? It shares the range bonus but has more grid for fitting Tachyons. Unfortunately it doesn't have any tracking bonus like the NM. I have no EFT handy atm...did anyone try it?
Thanks.


It depends upon your skills.

The Apocalypse is the least effective beam fit for this, as the vast majority of level 4 missions are deadspace -- you can't dictate your beginning range. Most missions will drop you into the center of a cloud of rats, most of them 20-30km away. A Pulse-Fit Apoc can be nice, but you're trading away higher DPS on all of the closer rats for better dps on the 3 or 4 battleships that prefer to hang at 60km from you in a given mission.

The combination of highest DPS and most flexibility is (not surprisingly) the hardest to fit: The Armageddon+Tachyons. The Rate of Fire bonus can be huge if you also fit a pair or more Tracking Enhancers (~5sec RoF @ Amarr BS level V), which will allow you to use multi-frequency crystals on 99% of the ships in the mission. The biggest drawback is a relatively weak tank for a battleship.

The Abaddon is the toughest tank of the bunch and sports a decent damage bonus. It happens to be my favorite of the Amarr T1 Battleships and was my go-to ship for Amarr missions when I was in Empire. The Abaddon really shines when you pick up the occasional Drone or Mercenaries mission and you need to Omni Tank.


Gilda Fett
Posted - 2010.08.09 17:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Denuo Secus
...Navy Raven when in comes to EM weak rats?

......but the NM is ugly


NM. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. Think of her as an ugly wife - you'll get used to her eventually, and if you just can't get near due to inherent ugliness just keep drinking until she becomes a babe.

Well actually I think there's something wrong with you if you find NM ugly, that's like thinking Jessica Alba or Angeline Jolie is ugly.

Zelrod
Posted - 2010.08.09 18:50:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gilda Fett
Originally by: Denuo Secus
...Navy Raven when in comes to EM weak rats?

......but the NM is ugly


NM. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. Think of her as an ugly wife - you'll get used to her eventually, and if you just can't get near due to inherent ugliness just keep drinking until she becomes a babe.

Well actually I think there's something wrong with you if you find NM ugly, that's like thinking Jessica Alba or Angeline Jolie is ugly.


The NM is crazy good. For the record I think Angelina Jolie looks like Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas with huge fake boobs. So I'm not a fan... but the ship is ded sexa. It has a flashlight on it what other ship can say that?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.08.09 18:52:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Zelrod
The NM is crazy good. For the record I think Angelina Jolie looks like Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas with huge fake boobs. So I'm not a fan... but the ship is ded sexa. It has a flashlight on it what other ship can say that?


Thrasher and Cyclone (+T2 equivalents)

-Liang

Zelrod
Posted - 2010.08.09 18:59:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Zelrod on 09/08/2010 18:59:16
Originally by: Liang Nuren


Thrasher and Cyclone (+T2 equivalents)

-Liang


Their hulls aren't dark though so their flahlights don't stand out enough.

Nimbat
Posted - 2010.08.10 00:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zelrod
The NM is crazy good. For the record I think Angelina Jolie looks like Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas with huge fake boobs. So I'm not a fan... but the ship is ded sexa. It has a flashlight on it what other ship can say that?


Thrasher and Cyclone (+T2 equivalents)

-Liang


Don't forget the Amarr Navy Slicer with dual flashlights.

ThaMa Gebir
Gallente
SUECHTLER Inc.
Saints Amongst Sinners
Posted - 2010.08.10 06:03:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: ThaMa Gebir on 10/08/2010 06:04:42
Originally by: Nimbat
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Zelrod
The NM is crazy good. For the record I think Angelina Jolie looks like Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas with huge fake boobs. So I'm not a fan... but the ship is ded sexa. It has a flashlight on it what other ship can say that?


Thrasher and Cyclone (+T2 equivalents)

-Liang


Don't forget the Amarr Navy Slicer with dual flashlights.


And the Viator USED to. (Old classic engine)


WRT the op: I fly a pulse Apoc. I enjoy it, maybe not as fast as some other ships but for the investment it is plenty fast enough.

All t2 fit with 3 hs t2, 1 em hardener, 1 thermal hardener, and a damage control t2 large armour rep t2.

Does the job and is quick. 61.2 km with scorch.


Denuo Secus
Posted - 2010.08.10 16:47:00 - [21]
 

Many thanks for your input. I did a lot of EFTing based on your suggestions ^^

I'm still not finally sure...we'll see...

The ship is only for the EM weak missions I get (I live in Caldari space). Im sure any Amarr BS would do the job quite good. But the nice thing with carebearing is you can use always the top-notch stuff. No doubt the NM is this. I tried to EFT all your suggestions but never I was able to beat the NM in terms of DPS, volley, tracking and tank - not even the Paladin...this THING is an animal. Maybe I get used to the flashlight... :P


 

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