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blankseplocked CCP Congratulations! Your dream of movable plex's come true!
 
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Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:42:00 - [241]
 

Nye look up one post for the explanation.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:44:00 - [242]
 

I just want to add a point about the legality of PLEX being in-game items: CCP are capable of truly astounding acts of incompetence and downright stupidity, but you can be pretty sure that they consulted with lawyers when it comes to things like PLEX and the ability to destroy it before they allowed that to happen.

In other words: They're dumb and they eat too much whale meat, but they're not that dumb.

Ubora
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:45:00 - [243]
 

You don't buy game time, you buy an item that can be exchanged for game time. CCP got the money and the guy got the item. That's it. What then happens to the item is no ones concern other than the guy wasting it in this instance.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:47:00 - [244]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 08/08/2010 16:52:54
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to.

Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely.

Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item.


I don't think that significantly boosting high sec suicide ganking is the way to go. I can see your point and understand it. But having PLEX's drop at a 100% rate will create more problems than it would solve. But I am not quite convinced that there is even a problem here even though you bring up an interesting point.


Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:51:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: BeachParty
If anyone has the heart, contract that pilot a new Kestral.


You win the threadnought RazzRazzRazz

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:54:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONSExclamationExclamationExclamation


QFT

Today, people seem unable to think, forsee consequences, and take responsibility.
So to be even more realistic in todays world we might even be better off with banning internet all together.

There is this saying amongst developers:

Originally by: Rich Cook
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.


I guess it doesnt only apply in programming.



Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:56:00 - [247]
 

There is a difference, I believe. Regardless of the state of a gift card (in a pocket / wallet, lost, stolen, etc.) it still has value until it is used, yes?

If I lose a $50 gift card and someone else finds it, they now have a $50 gift card. This is how PLEX work, when they drop.

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used. If PLEX dropped 100% of the time, the issue would be resolved.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong but I will never agree with the reasoning. It just seems unethical as hell.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:00:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22
Originally by: Nye Jaran

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used.


FYP

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:05:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Regardless of the state of a gift card (in a pocket / wallet, lost, stolen, etc.) it still has value until it is used, yes?


no, if the gift card is destroyed (cut up, melted, whatever) it is void. if the number is still readable the store can, at their discretion, choose to honnor the card by punching in the PAN manually.

RifterDrifter
La Blue Girl
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:05:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONSExclamationExclamationExclamation



Pretty much this.
All the people baaaawing about CCP giving them more freedom about the stuff they own should collectively sue CCP for breaking internet space law for extra lulz.

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:06:00 - [251]
 

Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:08:21
Originally by: Ressiv
Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22
Originally by: Nye Jaran

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used.


FYP


Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything.

Phosphorus Palladium
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:06:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Ressiv
Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22
Originally by: Nye Jaran

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used.


FYP


Thanks, was about to say the same.

Also, the constant whinage on these forums is becoming annoying.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:13:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:08:21
Originally by: Ressiv
Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22
Originally by: Nye Jaran

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used.


FYP


Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything.


apparently me explaining how they work to you twice was insufficient to get the point across?

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:16:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Not getting it......


A plex is a virtual item, unlike a gift card. You do know Eve is a game, right?

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:17:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Denidil
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:08:21
Originally by: Ressiv
Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 17:00:22
Originally by: Nye Jaran

However, when a PLEX gets destroyed, it's much like the gift card issuer deleting the card information from the DB it's much like the owner keeping it in his pocket, while washing his pants. It removes the value completely and prevents it from ever being used.


FYP


Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything.


apparently me explaining how they work to you twice was insufficient to get the point across?



Obviously not.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:18:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran

Never used a Gamestop gift card to buy from them online? Doesn't matter what happens to the card, as long as you know the number and PIN, you're good to go. Not that I've ever done that (washing a gift card) or anything.


A few giftcards and their policies:

Blurp giftcards

Snapon Giftcards
Algauron

In other words, the fact that Gamestop cards are replaced (couldnt find any evidence of this btw) does not make it law.

The most logical explanation for why Gamestop cards can be used, regardless of you having the physical card, is the fact that you use the numbers on it, on a website.
Web forms dont care where you read the info, as long as it's valid.



Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:20:00 - [257]
 

if the card is destroyed then the issuer has no responsibility to honor it, they're just being nice by honoring it's number if you have the number and the PIN.

PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them).

once it is destroyed it is void (aka no longer has to be honored).

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:26:00 - [258]
 

Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:34:41
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 17:28:07
Originally by: Denidil
PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them).



Now I understand. I was thinking about it in terms of data (card number / PIN). Mind you, I still don't agree with PLEX being destroyed. But that's just me.

Edit to flesh it out:
I was thinking Number/PIN cards (like the Gamestop card) used in an online setting (just like Eve). It doesn't matter what happens to the physical card, because the value of the card is associated with the Card Number and PIN (from my consumer perspective). As long as I know the number and PIN, I can still use the card. No, I can't walk into the store and give them the number without the card, but I can use it online. It still has value.

Zeke Mobius
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:34:00 - [259]
 

I have a hard time believing that CCP changed the PLEX system to benefit the players instead of benefiting CCP since destroyed PLEX does not have to get honored and CCP makes pure profit off destroyed plex. Absolutely nothing changed except CCP implementing a possible scenario in which CCP makes money. Thats all it is.

They gave the option to move plex around. Thats it. By doing that, look what happened. CCP made over 1000euro over 1 person being a dumbass. Where exactly is the benefit to the player?

Yes I understand that anyone will have to make the concious decision to undock with plex but that is not the point. Why would CCP even consider changing the system? Ive already answered. Greed

Another thing that bothers me is why does it cost 20$ dollars to transfer a pilot to another account. CCP aint doing ****. Who decided 20$ its more than a ****ing sub.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:35:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Denidil
PLEXs are like gift cards that don't have numbers printed on them (Yes.. some are magnetic strip only, don't have numbers printed on them).



Now I understand. I still don't agree with it, but I get it. I was thinking about it in terms of data (card number / PIN).




99% of the time it's just data to me to as i work on the software that routes the transaction from the acquirer (aka the person making a charge) to the issuer (who's card it is). different types of cards have different rules though - Pin and Chip, Swipe and Sign, Prepaid Visa/MC, Debit, gift cards, etc.

Gift cards are actually usually not even processed on the same system as the rest of those - it's really only the Visa and master card "Gift Cards" (prepaid credit cards) that get processed over that. Gift Cards are usually either processed in house by the store (by having a step between their terminals and their transaction processor) or by their transaction processor. but AFAIK you won't find a store that has gift cards from a company that is not their acquirer processor.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:50:00 - [261]
 

One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side.

If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well.
Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy.


CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:52:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Explain no, please?
No, CCP has not said "FU players". No, CCP has not said "everything new nothing fixed for 18 months". No, CCP did not get a bit of free cash.
Quote:
CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time.
CCP got the money, and the owner got exactly what he wanted as well.
Quote:
No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent.
The owner wilfully chose to employ the PLEX in a way that has a chance of leading to its destruction. He chose not to force CCP to honour the "PLEX for time" agreement, but rather chose to treat it as a trade good and lost it like a trade good. At every step along the way, he could have chosen to hold them to this this alternative use; at every step along the way, he chose a different alternative, thus absolving CCP from the need to give him game time. CCP cannot be held responsible for those choices — in fact, they upheld their end every time: they gave him the GTCs, just like he asked; they gave him the PLEXes, just like he asked; they transferred the PLEXes to his ship, just like he asked; they exposed him to the risk of having his ship blown up, just like he asked…

Every single one of these choices were wilfully made by the player, not CCP. CCP did the only thing they could: they honoured the agreements between themselves and the player.


Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:56:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side.

If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well.
Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy.


CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.


what? logic, you don't have it.

items in eve can be destroyed. PLEX is an item in Eve. therefore PLEX can be destroyed.

for a long time there was special case code blocking that last step. special case code opens the door to bugs and exploits. therefore CCP told you to take responsibility for your own actions and be careful.

you see to want to live in a world where you constantly have a nanny protectin you. protecting people from their own stupidity is often a great idea in real life, but this is a game and PLEXs are an in game item - you had to choose to buy a GTC and then choose to redeem it as PLEX then you had to choose to undock with those. see all that player choice?

it is not CCP's fault that players are stupid.

would i be ****ed if i got popped with PLEX in the hold? yes
whould i be ****ed at CCP? no

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 17:59:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.
CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable if the player holding the PLEX so chooses. Nothing is destroyed unless a player — someone who has something to lose form said destruction — chooses to make it happen.

Libin Herobi
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:07:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.
CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable if the player holding the PLEX so chooses. Nothing is destroyed unless a player — someone who has something to lose form said destruction — chooses to make it happen.


That's a very complicated way of saying "yes".

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:08:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side.

If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well.
Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy.


CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.


CCP designed plexes so there is never any reason to move them, so they can be traded in perfect safety. But I guess its not idiot proof. I bet you have labeled all your forks with a big sign saying "do not put pointy end in your eye as it might hurt".

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:20:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Libin Herobi
That's a very complicated way of saying "yes".
It's actually a complicated way of saying "so what?" — if players don't want to give CCP this mythical free money, they can simply choose not to. Hell, that choice is even the default, and they have to go out of their way to make something else happen.

What I would like to know, as a point of comparison, is if I pay CCP for one month's subscription and then do absolutely nothing. No training, no ghost-datacorefarming, no active market orders, no S&I… I don't even log in, and the only thing that happens on the account is that the character gets 30 days older. Have I then been defrauded by CCP, and should CCP be held accountable for letting this atrocity happen?

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:23:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Denidil
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
One major difference between a gift card and a plex, is that a plex can only be destroyed by design, or by a systems failure on the CCP side.

If a gift card is destroyed its usually by accident. If a gift card is meant to be fragile and thus add extra income on the side for the company making them, I would consider that fishy as well.
Normally thats not an issue because they are usually pretty sturdy.


CCP designed for PLEXes to be destroyable, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible.


what? logic, you don't have it.

items in eve can be destroyed. PLEX is an item in Eve. therefore PLEX can be destroyed.

for a long time there was special case code blocking that last step. special case code opens the door to bugs and exploits. therefore CCP told you to take responsibility for your own actions and be careful.

you see to want to live in a world where you constantly have a nanny protectin you. protecting people from their own stupidity is often a great idea in real life, but this is a game and PLEXs are an in game item - you had to choose to buy a GTC and then choose to redeem it as PLEX then you had to choose to undock with those. see all that player choice?

it is not CCP's fault that players are stupid.

would i be ****ed if i got popped with PLEX in the hold? yes
whould i be ****ed at CCP? no


We seem to disagree on what a PLEX is. I mainly consider it a token representing an out of game service. You mainly consider it an in-game item.

My view on what a PLEX is, is based on the fact that its only final use is to convert to gametime, an out of game service. It's true that it can be traded but thats just an intermediate step.
In this way it is very different from any other item in Eve.

How does CCP look at a PLEX? That would be interesting to know, in layman's terms without the legalese bull****. Since PLEX'es changed attributes recently, its quite possible CCP changed their stance on what they believe it represents. They didn't clearly say that though, all they mentioned was that it was supposed to be like any other item, which it clearly isn't.


I want to live in a world that has reasonable consumer rights. And I do, I'm very grateful for that. I'm also aware that not all countries in the world are as fortunate in this field as I am.
I don't mind getting f... over in a game, but I draw clear line between in-game and out of game topics. PLEXes makes that line fuzzy to say the least.

Clearing up some of this PLEX business would make for better transparency for the consumers/players.

Mia Sin
Amarr
Space Ponies
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:24:00 - [269]
 


Nobody would care if the PLEX were used to buy ships and those have blown up. Why do you care about PLEX being blown up? There is no difference whatsoever.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.08 18:27:00 - [270]
 

If Plex are just another item, then what is their purpose? What do they do in game?

They are not redeemed for isk, although can be sold.

They have no in-game purpose. Make the purchasable with Loyalty Points and then I may think they are an in game item. Although as soon as you do that, people will be here saying "Why does CCP make me do their missions ..."

I care not for the pilot's loss, he really should have known better, how you acquire that amount of isk without is ... frightening. My issue is plex are not in game items. They may be traded in game, but they have no in game function.


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