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blankseplocked CCP Congratulations! Your dream of movable plex's come true!
 
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:52:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile
Originally by: Sarina Berghil


You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for?


Stop with this! Evil or Very Mad The player decided to gamble with it, totally needlessly since there is no reason at all to move plex around.
He could have trashed it sold it on the spot or like in this case, jumped into a timn can and got blown up. IT WAS HIS CHOICE!


I agree completely. There is no reason at all to undock a plex, which is why the original functionality worked perfectly well.

It makes sense to have special rules for items that have real life monetary value, or represents real life services.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:56:00 - [212]
 

The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to.

Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely.

Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item.


Ruby Udders
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:02:00 - [213]
 

Got what he deserved tbh..
Just because you can undock plexes doesn't mean you should.

He took a gamble and lost. If he's too %#%!&# stupid to realise he might lose those 74 plexes the second he undocks.. It's hardly EVE's fault now is it?

Undocking with PLEX in the hold is an OPTION..

Non-issue in my opinion.

Caeltrayian
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:03:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
The big issue for me is that you can't "farm" more of these, you can't mine and make them. You can't earn them in game. PLEX are NOT just any other item. CCP would have had to give 74x30 days of training to an account, now they don't have to.

Let me be clear, was the pilot a complete idiot? Absolutely.

Should Plex be movable? I was ok with the idea, but the destruction is WRONG. All 74 plex should have dropped NO MATTER WHAT, since they are NOT just any item.




Once they were converted to PLEX they become just like any other in game item. sorry so sad, dont move the damn things around, if you are afraid of your precious being popped Twisted Evil

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:13:00 - [215]
 

I think this is awesome. Players win if the ball lands in the red slots, house wins if the ball lands the black slots. Nobody wins if the idiots don't play.

Krecian
Gallente
Essence of Decay
Black Cartel.
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:16:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Krecian on 08/08/2010 15:16:55
Wow.... just freakin' wow.

Given that those things can be redeemed from anywhere in the universe without having to be "in station", there really isn't a reason to move these in the first place other than personal profit.

That guy was just "pants on head" stupid. This game punishes stupid. That's why I love this game.

(Edited for a minor spelling error)

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:18:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Krecian
Edited by: Krecian on 08/08/2010 15:16:55
Wow.... just freakin' wow.

Given that those things can be redeemed from anywhere in the universe without having to be "in station", there really isn't a reason to move these in the first place other than personal profit.

That guy was just "pants on head" stupid. This game punishes stupid. That's why I love this game.

(Edited for a minor spelling error)


My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100%

CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however.

Thrasymachus TheSophist
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:23:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel


My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100%

CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however.


If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special.

By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item.

The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special".

Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ...

Squasar
Void Angels
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:27:00 - [219]
 

The trolling in this thread is incredible! Laughing

One you convert a GTC to a PLEX, any monetary value goes out the window. I've seen T1 haulers get ganked FULL of complete Slave implant sets that equal the value of these PLEX. Anyone that converts the price of an IN GAME ITEM to real money shouldn't be playing a game at all.

Speaking of which, I just lost a shuttle. Now I need to go kill myself since I just lost $0.05 in real life money!

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:27:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel


My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100%

CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however.


If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special.

By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item.

The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special".

Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ...


I completely agree with the Pilot Error here, I am not excusing the horrendously stupid action. What did the game gain from moving them? Really? what was added? the ability to exist in null without a jump clone? That was never really addressed. If the item could be bought with LP I would drop all objections. Now I think NO one would want them buyable with LP, which then argues they are not JUST normal items.


Ubora
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [221]
 

Nothing magical about money that makes that so special, you pay for all your in-game gear in someway with effort from the real world. Be it time, money, mental or physical health.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
What did the game gain from moving them? Really? what was added? the ability to exist in null without a jump clone? That was never really addressed. If the item could be bought with LP I would drop all objections. Now I think NO one would want them buyable with LP, which then argues they are not JUST normal items.
The ability to make more ISK from them. It turned them into true trade goods, and with the reward that this brings comes the risk losing them all as well…

Kerdrak
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:33:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.


well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me.

Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet.

I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable.




If I buy a F50 and I decide to drive it at 200 km per hour to end destroying it against a tree, should I go to Ferrari forums and whine because they allowed me to drive it at that speed? or should they limit the speed of F50 to 100 km/h?

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:34:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel


My issue is that they should NOT be destroyable. They should drop 100%

CCP should be forced to HONOUR the item. Treat it like any item, move it, sell it, etc, they are NOT just any item however.


If they were NOT destructible, then you'd be right, and they'd be special.

By making them movable and destructible, they ARE just like any other item.

The whole point is to make them LIKE everything else - not something special. The fact that you can directly trade in a PLEX for game time, instead of sell the asset for ISK, buy PLEX, trade in for game time, does not make them "special".

Its simply an in-game asset, and like any in-game asset (even ones that are worth 10x a PLEX) it should be destructible. The craziness is why, given how they function, anyone would move them ...



From a technical perspective they are like a normal item. From a functionality perspective they are very special. Depends on your point of view.

One reason to move them would be lack of knowledge about how they work, how assets work in general, and how the market and contract system works. That lack of knowledge is quite common for new players. Personally I don't consider that stupidity, but I realize a lot of older players do.
Another reason to undock with them could be just a simple oversight, something that we all suffer from once in a while.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:34:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Barkaial Starfinder
So.. If you buy game cards and set them on fire, you think ... oh god
Rolling Eyes



Seem to recall someone did something similar with a box of cigars. Insured them against fire. Smoked them. Claimed them on insurance.
Worked fine, up until he was booked on the way out of the courtroom for arson...

Cryten Jones
Gallente
Advantage Inc
The Matari Consortium
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:36:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.



Just wanted to point out that the expression is 'to nip that in the bud'. comes from a gardening practice to stop a new stalk or flower growing if you don't want it to by cutting a chunk out of the new bud.

Not making an issue out of it, just thought that you would like to know :-)

-CJ


Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:40:00 - [227]
 

Such is the reality of the sandbox, ladies and gentlemen. If you truly want a game, where loss is a non-issue, and the developer actively stops you from doing stupid things, then EVE is not really the best MMO for you.

This character had the option to trade GTC's over the forum. GTC trade is safe, and scams are not allowed in the timecode bazaar. Once you convert the GTC to plexes, you agree to convert your code to an in-game items.
In EVE, players are able, allowed, and even encouraged to steal, scam, and destroy in-game items and this applies just as much to a plex as it does to a 1MN Afterburner I.

Dirk Mortice
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:41:00 - [228]
 

Oh god, the rage.


This is probably the only epic thing CCP have done in the last year

TehFailGuy
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:45:00 - [229]
 

No one else wondered how someone this ******ed managed to acquire the ISK or real life money to afford all that?

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:48:00 - [230]
 

I can honestly say, stuff like this makes me still want to play the game.
The best move by CCP for a long time.

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:49:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in.

When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money.

This is getting real close to fraud.


No. CCP received money and delivered an item which gives 30 days of game time upon activation, that's where your business with CCP is over. What will you do with that item is your responsibility, not CCP's. You can use it, sell it, destroy it, lose in some market/contract scam or -as in this case- ship destruction... so it's only up to you.

Oh and I bet that guy had some master plan to make big money with those plexes, unfortunately for him something went terribly wrong. Another day in EVE, another loss... nothing new there, really.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.08.08 15:55:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: TehFailGuy
No one else wondered how someone this ******ed managed to acquire the ISK or real life money to afford all that?


pimpin' ain't easy

Agent Unknown
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:06:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.


well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me.

Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet.

I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable.




It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread.

Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. YARRRR!!

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:09:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 16:13:06
Originally by: Agent Unknown
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.


well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me.

Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet.

I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable.




It's not destroyable if you don't undock with it. There is absolutely no reason to undock with PLEXs in your cargo...especially that many of them. For all we know he could've done that to spark this very thread.

Sure, PLEX are generated from RL cash, but people shouldn't be stupid enough to undock with a bunch of them. YARRRR!!


Close, but not quite.

GTC's are generated from RL cash.
PLEX are generated from the conscious decision to turn that GTC into two game items that are destructible and have no RL value.

CCP, could you please make it so that we cannot undock. Otherwise we might get our pixels injured.

YOU MUST PROTECT US FROM OURSELVES. WE CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BAD IN GAME DECISIONSExclamationExclamationExclamation


Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:13:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 16:14:11
Edit: Phrasing

So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? Sounds like a ****ing scam to me, and quite possibly something that could get them into legal trouble. Before you flame me, just follow the logic.

A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement, potentially to an extent that's legally actionable in small claims court.

If the PLEX had a 100% drop rate, there would be no problem. Ownership would transfer over to the wreck looters and the agreement would still be honored.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:18:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 08/08/2010 16:19:44
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Edited by: Nye Jaran on 08/08/2010 16:14:11
Edit: Phrasing

So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash? Sounds like a ****ing scam to me, and quite possibly something that could get them into legal trouble. Before you flame me, just follow the logic.

A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed. By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement, potentially to an extent that's legally actionable in small claims court.

If the PLEX had a 100% drop rate, there would be no problem. Ownership would transfer over to the wreck looters and the agreement would still be honored.




As has been repeatedly pointed out, a GTC is the "legally binding agreement". These have a value and are not destructible.

A PLEX is created from the conscious decision of the GTC owner to convert it into two in game items that are destructible and have no real world value.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:20:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 08/08/2010 16:20:46
Originally by: Nye Jaran
So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash?
No.
Quote:
A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed.
"If", not "when".
Quote:
By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement
By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:25:00 - [238]
 

to everyone crying in this thread: HTFU!

There is a perfectly legitimate software engineering reason to remove the special rules off this item: reduces chances for bugs and exploits

Legally and ETHICALLY CCP only has a responsibility to honor: A GTC (convertable into game time, or 2 PLEX). Once that code is redeemed their responsibility is ended until such a time as someone presents a PLEX for redemption. tese would be covered by the same ethics and laws as a gift card. It is not the responsibility of the issuer of a gift card (or prepaid visa or mastercard) if the card is lost or destroyed. They're only obligated to honor othem when they're presented.

The decisions of the players involved in this situation destroyed the "gift cards" (PLEX) so they can not be presented for redemption. It is not the legal or ethical responsibility of CCP to honor gift cards that are destroyed.

Furthermore as shown on test PLEX have a very good probability of dropping (when not stuck inside a can which got destroyed)./

Yes this means that CCP gets more money in than they give services out.. this is true of everyone who issues gift cards or prepaid credit/debit cards.


Caveat: I am a software engineer in the credit/debit/ACH processing industry.

Nye Jaran
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:36:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Nye Jaran
So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash?
No.

Explain no, please? A person paid money for a GTC, turned around and sold it in Eve as 2x PLEX. Those PLEX, when they were removed from the game, became permanently unreedemable. CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time.

Quote:
Quote:
A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed.
"If", not "when".
Correct, a PLEX does not have to redeemed. My mistake on this one.

Quote:
Quote:
By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement
By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time.

No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2010.08.08 16:42:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Nye Jaran
So CCP, the same company that says "FU players, everything new, nothing fixed for 18 months" just got a nice bit of free cash?
No.

Explain no, please? A person paid money for a GTC, turned around and sold it in Eve as 2x PLEX. Those PLEX, when they were removed from the game, became permanently unreedemable. CCP got the money but the owner of the PLEX did not get the game time.

Quote:
Quote:
A PLEX is a legally binding agreement between CCP and the owner of the PLEX (not purchaser) to credit the owner's account with 30 days of game time when a PLEX is redeemed.
"If", not "when".
Correct, a PLEX does not have to redeemed. My mistake on this one.

Quote:
Quote:
By allowing them to be destroyed (thus made unredeemable), CCP is purposefully breaching that agreement
By the same token, by choosing to destroy the item, the player is purposefully breaching that agreement, thereby absolving CCP of their duty to fork over 30 days of game time.

No, actually. The owner is not willfully destroying the PLEX, nor is the owner (most likely) intending to destroy it. By allowing players to undock with PLEX, CCP has given implied consent.


Read the post above yours, specifically this...

Quote:
Legally and ETHICALLY CCP only has a responsibility to honor: A GTC (convertable into game time, or 2 PLEX). Once that code is redeemed their responsibility is ended until such a time as someone presents a PLEX for redemption. tese would be covered by the same ethics and laws as a gift card. It is not the responsibility of the issuer of a gift card (or prepaid visa or mastercard) if the card is lost or destroyed. They're only obligated to honor othem when they're presented.



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