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blankseplocked CCP Congratulations! Your dream of movable plex's come true!
 
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Exxter Evox
Gallente
Tri-Star Enterprise
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:17:00 - [181]
 

With a Cargo this worthy my only comment is "wrong ship, wrong time to undock." :)

Its not like that in high-traffic-hours all little frigs with cargo values above 80 mil are instant popped.


Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:17:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies.


Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:21:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Frozean
As i always say
Its futile to deal with dumb people.

They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

Blaming CCP for PLEX being destroyed in a ship, is like blaming the bank for cheating on you, Because if you burn your money it will get burned.

Undocking PLEX in a ship is as bad as burning money with your stove. Hence, the bank is wrong for releasing money


The bank went out of their way to give you highly flammable money when they could have just as easily given you fireproof money.
Then they gave you matches.

Sure, you're still a dumb **** for actually burning the money, but the bank is going out of its way to make this scenario more likely.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:28:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Originally by: Aerilis
The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies.


Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list.


Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect.
The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense.

Jim Hazard
Minmatar
Scrubfleet
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:33:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Jim Hazard on 08/08/2010 10:37:30

First of all i want to say that this guy was really asking for it and deserved to die there. I also do not have anything against the changes they made, since you still only can get blown up like that by your own stupidity.

Still anyone who is thinking that ccp did make the changes without thinking about making more profit is a total ******.

Why did ccp make them unmovable in the first place? Because they know about pplīs stupidity and they know about suicide ganking and all the risks involved when you undock with "gametime" in your cargohold. Actually when plexes where added into the game they did anything to actually "protect" the stupid customers.

The only reason to make the change was to make more money. Which is allright for me... ccp is a profit oriented company and not some wellfare club. Still when you believe that PR crap that the changes where made just to make plexes like any other item your not really smarter than ppl who get blown up with plexes in their cargohold.

Zoloft Rx
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:38:00 - [186]
 

Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)?

If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:44:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Originally by: Aerilis
The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies.


Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list.


Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect.
The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense.


I can't agree that it is an ethical violation, choice was implicitly involved in every step that lead to the plex destruction, and the last choice that involved CCP was in the sale of plex to whoever bought them originally. It was a player that undocked with those plex's, and another player that hit the F1 that activated his weapon system. The players were complicit in the destruction of that plex.

I can only concede that this is a poor choice of move as far as PR goes between CCP and its player base, at least the portion of players that see this as an ethical violation.

Not making the drop rate for plex in a ship destruction equal that of other items is hypocritical however, considering their whole stance on wanting all items to be the same.

But a minor hypocrisy and poor PR hardly justifies accusing someone of thievery, and using hyperbole for purposes of libel toward the end of manipulation of that same player base certainly doesn't make for a strong moral high ground.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:46:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Ressiv on 08/08/2010 10:55:39
I CBAed to read this whole thread. I'm sure much whining and rage spawned over the last 7 pages.

All I want to add is this:

To the victim: You, sir, are a moron.
To the attackers: Great job, how ****ed where you when they didnt drop ?


Edit: Well, how surprising, I have something to add.

To al lthe a-holes that are against this change and state it is unethical: Would you please care to explain why this is unethical ? CCP ADDED the option to trade them, for your prof!7$. If you are stupid enough to undock 74 of em in a n00b frig, in JITA of all ****ing places!!!, you should be banned by CCP for flying and drinking. Your pilot license should be revoked, as it's clear that the next time you get a chance, you will end up bumping the docking bay inside out.

There are a lot of ways to move a PLEX, or 74 of em, and be safe from scanners and the like. This was like moving the Central Bank's gold deposit in your 2CV VW.

Use the proper tool for the job ... yeah, this frig had a cargohold, but it was lacking everything else it needed for this high risc (high reward if successfull) undertaking.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:48:00 - [189]
 

He probably earned the isk for that lot running plexes.

Doubtful he paid real life ISK for them. Seems he was collecting buy orders. He may have scammed them all for 300isk too.

Too many unknowns to care and to be honest, Monkeys own some 0.0 space.

Owning 0.0 space does allow you to get very fat wallets. Entirely Possible they looked at the loss and just went 'meh', we'll go get some later.

Nothing is wrong with this picture.


Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:49:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Zoloft Rx
Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)?

If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this.


You are being naive. There are warnings and the guys losing them on kills like these are mostly traders and not people interested in the gametime. The long discussions are going to happen no matter what at this point. Just lean back in your comfy chair and enjoy the trolling and idiocy.

Zoloft Rx
Posted - 2010.08.08 10:56:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Zoloft Rx
Do you get a warning message before you undock with a plex(s)?

If so, its your own fault if youget popped and lose them. If theres no warning, there should be, so when you do get popped for moving mass amounts of plex(s) around, we can laugh at you without a long discussion like this.


You are being naive. There are warnings and the guys losing them on kills like these are mostly traders and not people interested in the gametime. The long discussions are going to happen no matter what at this point. Just lean back in your comfy chair and enjoy the trolling and idiocy.


HAHA! So if there IS a warning, he knew the risk of undocking with them... even if he's a trader. Perfectly legitimate kill then. Sounds like trading isn't this guy's strong point.

BTW.. how do you know my chair is comfy? you got eyes on me?? Shocked

Giovanni DalleBandeNere
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Posted - 2010.08.08 11:31:00 - [192]
 

that loss hurts!
agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.-
what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes?
'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.08.08 11:36:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Spurty
He probably earned the isk for that lot running plexes.

Doubtful he paid real life ISK for them. Seems he was collecting buy orders. He may have scammed them all for 300isk too.

Too many unknowns to care and to be honest, Monkeys own some 0.0 space.

Owning 0.0 space does allow you to get very fat wallets. Entirely Possible they looked at the loss and just went 'meh', we'll go get some later.

Nothing is wrong with this picture.




Probably going 'Meh'? Not exactly. Everyone have a look at the loss mail on their Killboard and read the comments. More exciting than COAD. Laughing

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.08 12:00:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 08/08/2010 12:06:28
Originally by: ChYph3r: 2010-08-08 11:01:34

Stop making comments right now! It is being petitioned and when it is reversed I will see to it all kill boards have this exploit removed. The threads featuring this kill are also being petitioned. So everyone relax and chill out.


Originally by: ChYph3r: 2010-08-08 11:05:22

Also if you don't chill I will see to it personally you are removed from monkey space never to be allowed back. The guy was unlucky and that in combination with 0rphanage exploiting lag in Kits this happened. So back off. Everyone is allowed to make a mistake.

Pure comedy gold.

I also am unlucky when undocking with 22B ISK worth in my kestrel, and will petition my mom for making me stupid.

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Probably going 'Meh'? Not exactly. Everyone have a look at the loss mail on their Killboard and read the comments. More exciting than COAD. Laughing

People who go 'meh' at these kinds of losses usually know a bit more about protecting assets.

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.08 12:30:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere
that loss hurts!
agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.-
what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes?
'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem



yes. ExclamationExclamationPLEXes do drop.ExclamationExclamation


it's just this was a stack, and as you remember stacks get processed all at once instead of individually. some people loaded up a frig with 4 million PLEXes (unstacked) on Sisi then blew it up... 99%+ of them dropped.

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:01:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Denidil
Originally by: Giovanni DalleBandeNere
that loss hurts!
agree on the fact that he was a stupid to move the 74 plex, xpecially in a cyno frig -.-
what i ask is..do that kind of "loot" actually drops sometimes?
'cause if it does, everything's fine (xcept that dude ^_^;), if it doesn't well..then there's a problem



yes. ExclamationExclamationPLEXes do drop.ExclamationExclamation


it's just this was a stack, and as you remember stacks get processed all at once instead of individually. some people loaded up a frig with 4 million PLEXes (unstacked) on Sisi then blew it up... 99%+ of them dropped.


Then I stand corrected on the hypocrisy. Naggers will have to find something else to nag about now.

putopugno
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:02:00 - [197]
 

Can I just point out a very big flaw a lot of you are making?

A lot of people are implying that CCP "holds" onto the cash used to buy the plexes (when they were originally created) and don't spend the cash until the plex is consumed.

This is baloney - that money is budgeted regardless of whether the game item is still there. Also while it is true that the creation of a plex creates an implied contract, the contract is complete with the creation of the game item.

Remember, above all plex is simply a game item that can be traded for game time. Nothing more.

NL Nataku
Manson Family
Corcoran State
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:18:00 - [198]
 

So the discussion right now is if this is ccp's doing or the poor guy losing tons of isk or real currency.

Yes the dude is a idiot for taking those things out for a spin in a kestrel since you know that when someone sees you cargo you might aswell paint a huge bullseye on your hull. However i dont agree with the fact that ccp lets these items be destroyed, these items can only come into excistance if people pay ccp money and their true purpose would then never be accomplished if they just pop. So even if people are stupid enough to take these things out then people who killed them should be able to take them. In what matter does this hurt ccp. Its arleady been paid for but no, this way ccp claims money and does not have to do anything for it.

Now this discussion could go on forever but just ask yourself this question..

WHY did ccp even make the plex's moveble, is it because the csm asked them, is it because people here on the forums were screaming about it ??? If it was either of the cases then i must have missed something. I mean they must have a good reason for it right, cant image that the devs just came together at a meeting and just said hey you know what lets make the plex's moveble and destroyeble because that will improve the game. Yeah right.

I dont agree with it and so do alot of other people i would rather see plex's turn back to non moveble to or better yet completly removed from the game including gtc's but that is a whole diffrent story and my personal opinion.

Xroxreariad Ramatarapap
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:23:00 - [199]
 

Hahahahahahaha

Nice! Twisted Evil

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:26:00 - [200]
 

I had lost much of the faith I once had in CCP. There has been endless threads about lag, imbalanced weapon systems, and the way in which CCP works, so there is no reason to go into detail here.

But then, something wonderful, something so beautiful as this happens. Making plexes movable was a great decision. It's things like this that makes me love EVE; this cold, harsh, and completely unforgiving universe.

Congratulations to the adopted kids. It's too bad the stuff didn't drop.

As for anyone believing that plexes being movable is scary, well then just don't undock.
Even better, stick to using the forum for GTC trade, if you want to make sure you will not get scammed, killed, or publicly rediculed.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 13:59:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: putopugno
Can I just point out a very big flaw a lot of you are making?

A lot of people are implying that CCP "holds" onto the cash used to buy the plexes (when they were originally created) and don't spend the cash until the plex is consumed.

This is baloney - that money is budgeted regardless of whether the game item is still there. Also while it is true that the creation of a plex creates an implied contract, the contract is complete with the creation of the game item.

Remember, above all plex is simply a game item that can be traded for game time. Nothing more.


When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in.

When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money.

This is getting real close to fraud.

I think the whole change is mainly due to CCP not thinking properly. But if I were to be paranoid for the sake of argument, it could look like CCP printed more PLEX'es than they can afford to honour, and therefore needs some of them destroyed.


Some people seems to think PLEX'es have ISK value and as such are comparable to other items in the game. A PLEX does not have an inherent ISK value, since they can't be 'cashed in' for ISK. They can only be traded to other players that have the intention of using the game time. Thats an important detail that separates the PLEX system from other types of RMT or microtransactions and keeps the economy stable. No cash enters the game with the creation or sale of a PLEX.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:04:00 - [202]
 

Posting on a thread containing epic stupidity and btw nice kill, the guy totally deserved it. YARRRR!!

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:10:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil

When a PLEX is created, CCP still owes someone, somewhere 30 days of game time. The contract is only completed the moment the game time is actually cashed in.

This applies to a ETC, not to a PLEX. A PLEX is an item that is in the game ONLY to counter RMT. People are now free to trade those items as well.
Quote:

When a PLEX is destroyed CCP doesn't need to honour the contract they got paid for, and furthermore it increases demand for buying further PLEX'es with real money.


There was no contract in the first place, so nothing to honor.
Quote:

I think the whole change is mainly due to CCP not thinking properly. But if I were to be paranoid for the sake of argument, it could look like CCP printed more PLEX'es than they can afford to honour, and therefore needs some of them destroyed.


No, they are giving you, the player, the option to get filthy rich on them, unless you are a moron and try your luck in a T1 frig, while at war.
Quote:

Some people seems to think PLEX'es have ISK value and as such are comparable to other items in the game. A PLEX does not have an inherent ISK value, since they can't be 'cashed in' for ISK. They can only be traded to other players that have the intention of using the game time. Thats an important detail that separates the PLEX system from other types of RMT or microtransactions and keeps the economy stable. No cash enters the game with the creation or sale of a PLEX.
I cant cash in my Hulk, T2 BS, or any other in game item either.

It would be fraud, the moment my PLEX can be stolen off the market, without me getting the ISK for it, or when it would randomly despawn from my cargo.

In all other cases, it's the pilots responsability to do with them what he/she wants.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:28:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Originally by: Aerilis
The value of an item is not deemed by some fine print in the EULA, the value of any item, virtual or real, is determined by what PEOPLE THINK IT IS WORTH. Nothing else. If everyone in the world thinks pennies are more valuable then nickels, guess what? They will become more valuable then nickels, regardless of what the U.S. Mint says about the value of pennies.


Well no, the U.S. Mint says it is worth 1/100th of a dollar, and therefore no bank is going to give you any more or less than a dollar if you give them 100 pennies. If people are buying or selling them as items, then they have ceased to be money. Likewise, even if all the players of EVE agreed that plex's were worth actual money, that doesn't mean you can get a line of credit at a real bank based on the number of plexes you have. You would have to convert them to GTC, sell them to someone for some form of currency a bank would accept, and then deposit that currency. You can think it is worth anything you want, and others can agree with you, but that bubble bursts the moment you have to deal with someone who disagrees as to the "worth" of your tulips, I mean in game items. Some things do have intrinsic value, but sorry, plex just isn't on that list.


Heh you dived pretty deep into that one :) You argue intelligently though, and for that you have my respect.
The point I was trying to make, though, was that PLEX perform the same function as GTC's. Both PLEX's and GTC's attain their value from one thing and one thing only--their ability to extend a person's Eve subscription. But here's where you're right--established law and institutions and fine print do have a say in the value of items, which is why CCP is only stealing in the ethical sense and not the legal sense.


Wrong. "Its immoral to let a sucker keep his money". ~ Canada Bill Jones

CCP Incognito

Posted - 2010.08.08 14:30:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.

Zeke Mobius
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:31:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 08/08/2010 14:31:11
i stnad corrected

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:37:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.


You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for?

Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:44:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil


You got paid real cash for those PLEXes already, do you believe its a reasonable business practice to roll dice for services you have been paid for?


Stop with this! Evil or Very Mad The player decided to gamble with it, totally needlessly since there is no reason at all to move plex around.
He could have trashed it sold it on the spot or like in this case, jumped into a timn can and got blown up. IT WAS HIS CHOICE!

Sarf
Spacelane Logistics
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:44:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Sarf on 08/08/2010 14:47:15
I think you all are missing a big point here. This is like going to buy a gift card at Best Buy. once the cashier takes the money and hands you the gift card there responsibility over the card is done.

They don't know or care if you take that gift card and give it to someone else, or store it in your mattress or shred it. They only care when the card comes back and someone says give me a DVD in exchange for the gift card.

CCP is in the same boat, they gave you a PLEX when you gave them $. after that if you turn around and sell it, undock and get popped, or transfer it to your brother, or just trash it. They only care when someone presents the plex and says "give me 30d play time".

So there is nothing unethical about this. if i buy a gift card and leave it on the bus is it Best Buys fault that I am absent minded? No it is my fault for losing it!

Same with CCP so lay off them, they have made it possible for me to hunt for game time... :)

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.08 14:48:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Would have been a nice drop, too bad that CCP set the drop chance for that item to ABSOLUTELY ZERO


I would like to nip this in the but, PLEX drop just like any other cargo using exactly the same rules. If the PLEX are in a can and the can doesn't drop as loot then everything in the can doesn't drop as loot.

In this case it was one role of the die and the can didn't drop, so bye bye all the contents.


well thank you for posting, but the fact that your company isn't bothered by this "destruction of over $1000 really bothers me.

Captain fire torpedos, target his REAL wallet.

I was ok with movable plex as a concept, but this situation tells me to absolutely oppose it now. Real purchased game time should not be destroyable.



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