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Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
Posted - 2010.08.07 01:09:00 - [1]
 

I've googled around and eve-searched, but I was wondering if anyone remembers the Item IDs for the combat probes that can be added to the actual text documents that represent overview settings? I saw it on the forums about a week ago, but no luck digging anything up on it.

Thanks.

Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2010.08.07 01:26:00 - [2]
 

1. Make "export overview settings"
2. Find .xml file with it.
3. Open it for editing.
4. Find tag <groups>
5. Add strings:
<group id="479"/>
<group id="492"/>
<group id="548"/>

6. Import this file as settings for overview
7. PROFIT!

Posted for educational purposes only.

Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:08:00 - [3]
 

Thanks a ton!

Redhouse
Posted - 2010.08.10 00:32:00 - [4]
 

I found this floating around which may be helpful.

Blazie
Minmatar
Drekkar Research and Development
Posted - 2010.08.10 01:26:00 - [5]
 

That is an extremely helpful link. Thanks for that.

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.08.10 17:59:00 - [6]
 

Interesting info but, looks to me like it's breaking the rules...

Ingkala
Posted - 2010.08.10 18:04:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Interesting info but, looks to me like it's breaking the rules...


If you read further below, you'll see that the guy contacted a GM who stated it is legal.

Tianzi Q'triann
Posted - 2010.08.10 20:35:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Interesting info but, looks to me like it's breaking the rules...

No, obviously the line codes are in the database to put probes on the overview but is not displayable on the overview setting option. I believe that CCP "accidentally" removed and "conveniently forgot" to fix the issue in their narrow scope of vision for "ultimate destruction! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!" because it favors the PVPer over the PVE (easier to scan out a ship then an exploration site with just 4 in all skills) but I might be wearing a tinfoil hat for that theory. Its not like its packet sniffing or what ever like the MonkeySphere guy, it just adds some lines to an overview file so the "use overview setting" option is actually used on the DScan. Already a pain in the ass scrolling through dozens of hundreds of wrecks, moons starting with the last 5 letters of the alphabet for that system when you reverse alphabetical the first column to show Scanner Probe, and random assorted renamed POS modules starting with @#$% (shift numbers) or ascii icons because I can't use the "use current overview option" which blocks out scan probes (which favors the PVPer don't you think?).

The Overview is a joke anyway, it really needs an overhaul so I can load a viewing preference that stays locked and not "remove station from overview" when I right click from a drop down menu to dock when the mouse spaz over a pixel on the wrong option or large collidable objects should show without bracket setting to display them, you will get killed if you are trying to bump/warp through an asteroid 0m in front of you because you didn't see it when aligning and there is a HAC/Recon about to lock you in 3 seconds.

Elijah Mohammed
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2010.08.10 22:17:00 - [9]
 

that sure will save a lot of scrolling around and possiblly missing them.
doesn't change having to spam the refresh though.


Muddy Undies
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.10 22:57:00 - [10]
 

When I am in lowsec/wh I have a tab that only shows player ships and scan probes, nothing else. If we engage, I switch to a pvp tab. If doing pve, I have a different tab for that. I also have the default tab that shows all the planets, stations, and stargates (so if my scan probes tab shows combat probes, I easily switch to default tab, click a planet or a stargate *never a moon!* and align to it / warp to it easily).

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2010.08.10 23:49:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tianzi Q'triann
No, obviously the line codes are in the database to put probes on the overview but is not displayable on the overview setting option. I believe that CCP "accidentally" removed and "conveniently forgot" to fix the issue in their narrow scope of vision for "ultimate destruction! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!" because it favors the PVPer over the PVE (easier to scan out a ship then an exploration site with just 4 in all skills) but I might be wearing a tinfoil hat for that theory.


I agree with this. That is why manually putting them onto the overview could be considered an exploit. CCP is a bit notorious in not having the GM's be synced with the actual rules that CCP wants the game to run by. Add to that you can't post any contact with GM's for confirmation that you spoke with them you have more a of a problem.

I do believe that the reason probes are not selectable because CCP wants it to be harder for the PvE pilot to see the probes thereby increasing the chance that the PvP scanning pilot can find the PvEer. If that is the case then your breaking CCP's intended overview functionality.

BTW, I do run exploration sites. Ever run a site with 30 hostiles in system? I have. Royal PTA with the scan/scroll method of looking for probes. Lot's of moon mining going on in my exploration area so it is common to see 1-4 POS with every scan. TBH, I will be setting up my overviews to show probes and then probably send off the petition to confirm that it is legal.

I do believe probes should be a selectable overview item. I also made an approveal post in the assembly hall on the thread that suggested allowing probes to be added to the overview selections. The only real issue is that this has to be manually done and if that adjustment is legal or not.

I for one am glad to see this thread though. It will help push CCP one way or the other on the topic and in the near term will make exploration so much less annoying then before.

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.08.11 01:01:00 - [12]
 

only 3 id numbers.

I think at least one is missing? sisters core maybe.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2010.08.11 01:50:00 - [13]
 

If I had to take a shot at the legality of this, I would say that the intention is to import an xml-based text file to quickly set up an overview. If CCP didn't want us to edit the overview files, they should not have them in an easily editable format.

The tool listed simply creates overview files, same as the export function in-game. The category for probes is already in the game. The functionality has not been broken or altered in any way, unless CCP states that the probes were intentionally removed or left out, and must not be enabled. So, it seems okay to me. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

Marko Riva
Posted - 2010.08.11 09:40:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Soldarius
If I had to take a shot at the legality of this, I would say that the intention is to import an xml-based text file to quickly set up an overview. If CCP didn't want us to edit the overview files, they should not have them in an easily editable format.

The tool listed simply creates overview files, same as the export function in-game. The category for probes is already in the game. The functionality has not been broken or altered in any way, unless CCP states that the probes were intentionally removed or left out, and must not be enabled. So, it seems okay to me. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.


******ed 12yearold reasoning is ******ed.

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.08.11 12:07:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Marko Riva
Originally by: Soldarius
If I had to take a shot at the legality of this, I would say that the intention is to import an xml-based text file to quickly set up an overview. If CCP didn't want us to edit the overview files, they should not have them in an easily editable format.

The tool listed simply creates overview files, same as the export function in-game. The category for probes is already in the game. The functionality has not been broken or altered in any way, unless CCP states that the probes were intentionally removed or left out, and must not be enabled. So, it seems okay to me. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.


******ed 12yearold reasoning is ******ed.


You are such a baby. Laughing

Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.11 12:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Psychotic Maniac
only 3 id numbers.

I think at least one is missing? sisters core maybe.


Those are group IDs, one for combat, one for core, one for deepspace probes.

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2010.08.11 13:56:00 - [17]
 

things we need to do to bypass problems caused by ui...

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:55:00 - [18]
 

Thanks for the info, very useful.

It would be nice if a GM could respond to the legality of this. It would be a even nicer if someone at CCP could take 5 minutes out of their day to add probes to the list of overview filters, being forced to spam the scan button and then get a sore head from reading a list of tiny text is one of the single worst mechanics in the history of computer games.


Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:26:00 - [19]
 

A quick update:

I used the link provided above to re-generate my overview settings and imported them. The site works great - much more intuitive than the one CCP provided, plus it all worked according to plan.

I can see the arguement on both sides for whether this is within the game rules, and obviously I stand on the side that if they're going to give us the ability to edit overview settings via XML import and include the Item Group IDs in the database, then they can at least *expect* this to happen. Since they haven't removed them, I'd go out on a limb and say it's "allowed" but probably not "preferred" by CCP.

Worst case scenario is that it's considered an exploit of game code, but I doubt it will carry a permaban. Probably a 24 or 72 hour game mechanic exploit ban, then fix your overview settings and move on with your life. As a pirate, I'm willing to take a little risk for the reward of easily seeing who wants me dead. YARRRR!!

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.08.11 17:09:00 - [20]
 

there's no reason probes shouldn't appear in our overview. they used to be there.

then ccp forgot to put them back in.

if it's in space it's in space like everything else and pop up on overview.

you shouldn't have to edit the xml to add them.

ccp is just being lazy and/or like noobs to die.

Zanaraxtarus
Posted - 2010.08.13 09:40:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
It will help push CCP one way or the other on the topic


Hehe... No it won't... This is CCP we're talking about... They aren't going to make a decision on something, that could tear the universe Wink

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2010.08.13 09:47:00 - [22]
 

There used to be a way to have more than five overview tabs by importing a hand-modified XML file. CCP didn't consider this an exploit (as in, nobody ever got banned for it - as far as I know), but fixed it after a while.

That being said, I agree with the others that consistency is not exactly one of CCP's virtues.

Aichi Awara
Posted - 2010.08.13 12:24:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Aichi Awara on 13/08/2010 12:29:22
Quick read & reply.

It should be considered as an exploit to use he above mentioned piece of code.

Having probes in overview seriously changes the nature of pvp... and makes probers obsolete.

Whats the point trying to get warp in to enemy fleet if all can see probes miles away?
Whats the point trying to probe down a ship in space if he can see probes miles away?
Whats the point being a prober if all you can do is to probe cosmic anomalies and signatures...

From my point of view there's a own small game we (battle)probers like to play with our intended target. Lazy ones ( with dscan) will be probed down and killed, the average players will manage to get away and pro's will probably turn tables and make the hunter hunted.

If all people start to use that little piece of code that allows probes to be seen in overview, whats left? Now the cat and mouse game is played with the hunter moving the probes while the hunted scrolls down the "thrash" and tries to determinate whether or not he is in danger. This gives both time to manouver. Remove the "thrash" and hunter is in disadvantage.

At the moment having unprobeable tengus is annoying but acceptable, but allowing the use of this overview -exploit will kill alot of the current way many people do PVP.

I don't think anyone one the other hand wants to dumb down probing to compensate probes being visible in OV?

Cheers!

Alt of pvp pilot & prober




Smabs
Posted - 2010.08.13 13:22:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Smabs on 13/08/2010 13:25:15
You can already see probes on scan without changing any game files or doing anything outside of the game client, though. I'm not sure how much difference it would really make for scanning down mission runners and so on. It's just a pain scrolling through all the garbage to see if they're there.

It'd be nice if there was a clear answer as to whether it's an exploit or not instead of leaving people in the dark.

Arch Widowmaker
Cry Wolf.
Posted - 2010.08.15 07:44:00 - [25]
 

This definatly makes it easier for any kind of PvE activity in low/null sec, but is also something I think will benefit PvP'ers in a while too, as more bears will venture outside highsec now that it's easier to avoid those pesky pirates!

If you've done your homework narrowing down his location on d-scan and invested in good probing skills, you should still be able to have a fair chance if you can resolve a warpable hit fast enough.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2010.08.15 09:12:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Aichi Awara

I don't think anyone one the other hand wants to dumb down probing to compensate probes being visible in OV?



I think there would be ways of making probes visible without dumbing down or nerfing pvp probing, a ten second delay between pressing scan on the D scanner and probes turning up on it could be one solution, I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas.

The big problem is the D scanner itself, anyone who's lived in W space knows the torture of pressing the scan button every two seconds and scrolling through reams of tiny text that hurts your eyes. For me it was a game breaker, the purpose of living in W space was to have fun with my mates and searching the D scanner for probes simply isn't fun.

Netherby
Posted - 2010.08.17 21:48:00 - [27]
 

Well I don't see how this could really be considered an exploit, since:

*Probes currently show up on directional scanner by default*

The only issue is that there is currently no option to filter your overview to show/not show them. There are lots of other things you can't currently set with the in game options that you could set by editing the overview file. Make a tab that only shows a single races ships? Make a tab that only shows e-war ships? You aren't getting any information that isn't already given to you, just making more specific filters to remove the information you don't want, you're actually reducing what you can see over the default..

Netherby
Posted - 2010.08.17 22:03:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Aichi Awara
Edited by: Aichi Awara on 13/08/2010 12:29:22
Quick read & reply.

It should be considered as an exploit to use he above mentioned piece of code.

Having probes in overview seriously changes the nature of pvp... and makes probers obsolete.



This is a non issue, they would only be in the overview if they were on grid with the probe, you can currently see brackets around any probe you are on grid with any way. No scanner would ever put probes on grid with their target, it would be very difficult to actually do that any way since the 'grid' is a tiny dot on the solar system scale map.

All this is doing is allowing someone to check the 'use overview settings' box on their directional scanner and still see probes, instead of having to uncheck that box to see probes, which in some cases is annoying, like when you're near a POS and you have a whole stack of POS junk on your directional scan. Even in this case if you sort reverse alphabetically by type probes which type all start with 'S' basically are ALWAYS near the top of the d-scan list and you don't need to do any scrolling to find them.

Probes always used to be on the overview until CCP removed all the probe types and changed them to combat and core then 'forgot' to add the new item IDs to the overview.

This in no way effects PvP or combat probing. It just reduces d-scan clutter, and while I don't know how d-scan actually works server side, it would make sense to only query object ids in your current overview filter when that box is checked, SO if all these people doing FULL object id d-scans every 2 seconds suddenly only query 3 items it would reduce the d-scan server load that CCP is always complaining about causing lag. And reducing lag is always an improvement to PvP, thus if you hate PvPers you should NOT use this filter and instead have your entire fleet spamming unfiltered d-scan as often as possible to increase server load and lag!

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2010.08.19 16:18:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Caldari Citizen20090217 on 19/08/2010 16:19:56
Originally by: Aichi Awara
Edited by: Aichi Awara on 13/08/2010 12:29:22
Quick read & reply.

It should be considered as an exploit to use he above mentioned piece of code.

Having probes in overview seriously changes the nature of pvp... and makes probers obsolete.

Whats the point trying to get warp in to enemy fleet if all can see probes miles away?
Whats the point trying to probe down a ship in space if he can see probes miles away?
Whats the point being a prober if all you can do is to probe cosmic anomalies and signatures...

From my point of view there's a own small game we (battle)probers like to play with our intended target. Lazy ones ( with dscan) will be probed down and killed, the average players will manage to get away and pro's will probably turn tables and make the hunter hunted.

If all people start to use that little piece of code that allows probes to be seen in overview, whats left? Now the cat and mouse game is played with the hunter moving the probes while the hunted scrolls down the "thrash" and tries to determinate whether or not he is in danger. This gives both time to manouver. Remove the "thrash" and hunter is in disadvantage.

At the moment having unprobeable tengus is annoying but acceptable, but allowing the use of this overview -exploit will kill alot of the current way many people do PVP.

I don't think anyone one the other hand wants to dumb down probing to compensate probes being visible in OV?

Cheers!

Alt of pvp pilot & prober






Compensating for poorly implemented game mechanics by making the UI as cumbersome as possible is not the fix you are looking for ....

EDIT: just tried this - found the xml, added the entries under groups, and it didnt work. Tried the link above that makes preset overview settings and still didn't work. Seems I am an xml edit noob. Anyone got an idiot proof walkthrough with screenshots :D

Tianzi Q'triann
Posted - 2010.08.20 06:35:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Aichi Awara
Edited by: Aichi Awara on 13/08/2010 12:29:22
Quick read & reply.

It should be considered as an exploit to use he above mentioned piece of code.

Having probes in overview seriously changes the nature of pvp... and makes probers obsolete.

Then you haven't realized how much trash the UI is and how much beneficial it is to streamline it. Couple of things that come to mind and its not just for the overview

1. Massive lag when reprocessing hundreds of different modules at the same time, I can't do **** for up to 5 minutes as each module stack is reprocessed one at a time.
2. Equipping lag, I am really tired of grabbing one module to equip on a ship, drop it, move to fast grab for a second, and suddenly the ship spins because it assumes I didn't want to equip the second module and would rather look at the entire ship.
3. Right click Warp to failing often because you miss the station by 2 pixels down, I am constantly removing celestial by accident from overview even thought the overview is set already and you can't lock the option.

Quote:
whats the point trying to get warp in to enemy fleet if all can see probes miles away?
Whats the point trying to probe down a ship in space if he can see probes miles away?
Whats the point being a prober if all you can do is to probe cosmic anomalies and signatures...

From my point of view there's a own small game we (battle)probers like to play with our intended target. Lazy ones ( with dscan) will be probed down and killed, the average players will manage to get away and pro's will probably turn tables and make the hunter hunted.

If all people start to use that little piece of code that allows probes to be seen in overview, whats left? Now the cat and mouse game is played with the hunter moving the probes while the hunted scrolls down the "thrash" and tries to determinate whether or not he is in danger. This gives both time to manouver. Remove the "thrash" and hunter is in disadvantage.

At the moment having unprobeable tengus is annoying but acceptable, but allowing the use of this overview -exploit will kill alot of the current way many people do PVP.

I don't think anyone one the other hand wants to dumb down probing to compensate probes being visible in OV?

Cheers!

It was already dumbed down, it was called Apocrypha. Over a year ago no one really used probes because it was an insanely cumbersome thing to use. Now, any 3 week newb is buzzing around level 4 mission space like a fly over a pile of horse road apples and a new "profession" was created. Probing is already easy, it needs to be fair for both sides and there is only one counter to probers that works (T3), which is very costly to fly and painful when its blown up. The other option is using Dscan (which needs an overhaul for slider to set ranges like the radius). If I can't use a "filter" to show probes, then you shouldn't have a "filter" to display a specific ship your looking and you can go back to actually flying to every position to drop unmovable probes for triangulation when a ship is hiding in dead space (which made scanning more difficult before the new system from what I heard)


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