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Javajunky
Posted - 2010.08.06 17:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Javajunky on 06/08/2010 17:35:03
I know people have abandoned PI but who's looking back now and just treating it as an R&D write off after some serious investment?

I'm out 200M+ ISK, not really mad about it, but I think I'm going to leave PI to the twisted folks who could possibly think this is a mini-game instead of mini-nightmare. Bet's 0.02ISK the tracking metric for PI at CCP is called the Lemming Index.

Might come back if they put a "Recylce All Extractors" on the planet (not holding breath). Gave my planets notice they are closing today. Fortunately I was not in business long enough for my planets to form any unions and I operated in "right to work" systems.

Anyone else take the nosedive and thrown in the towel after making major investments?


rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.08.06 17:48:00 - [2]
 

I started PI in low sec to get the extra extraction rates. Then I realized I had to haul from low sec to high sec to sell any product.

After 2 full T1 industrials went pop due to basic gate camps and/or 'dictors I gave up.

When people realize how stupid the PI logistics are right now and start making PI hubs maybe I'll be back. But the way it works now is...

Sellers extract in low/null sec.
Sellers haul to high sec to sell.
Buyers buy form high sec.
Buyers haul to low/null sec to use.

Clicking not so bad, hauling = effort.

Investigator Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:26:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: rain9441
I started PI in low sec to get the extra extraction rates. Then I realized I had to haul from low sec to high sec to sell any product.

After 2 full T1 industrials went pop due to basic gate camps and/or 'dictors I gave up.

When people realize how stupid the PI logistics are right now and start making PI hubs maybe I'll be back. But the way it works now is...

Sellers extract in low/null sec.
Sellers haul to high sec to sell.
Buyers buy form high sec.
Buyers haul to low/null sec to use.

Clicking not so bad, hauling = effort.




Dictors are nulsec. Also there is a ship specifically designed for low sec hauling.
And alts/corpies for looking b4 you leap.

Originally by: rain9441
how stupid the PI logistics are

Originally by: rain9441
how shortsighted my logistics planning are

Fixed.

Ulstan
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:43:00 - [4]
 

How did you lose 200+ million? Did you set up 5 planets with 5 alts before realizing it was a tedious clickfest?

I tried it out on one character, realized I hated having to do the million clicks for everything and that there were far more efficient ways to make money, and just about broke even. So, had a bit of fun playing sim city in space for a while, no real loss.

I don't know that CCP will ever make it very easy. If I only had to click once to restart an extractor planet instead of about 80 times it would be trivial to have one guy running about 40 planets through alts, etc, which is presumably NOT what CCP wants to have happen.

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Investigator Spruillo
Dictors are nulsec.


I assure you, the broadsword who camped the gate and pelted my warp core stabilizer fitted industrial says otherwise.

Honestly, I'd feel really stupid if i was hauling around 10mil worth of cargo 10 jumps in a prowler every day.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:33:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Investigator Spruillo
Dictors are nulsec.


I assure you, the broadsword who camped the gate and pelted my warp core stabilizer fitted industrial says otherwise.

Honestly, I'd feel really stupid if i was hauling around 10mil worth of cargo 10 jumps in a prowler every day.


Your picking the wrong locations and hauling wrong.

1) You need to scout the systems prior for at least a week and see what general activity in the system and the route you plan on using is like. low and nullsec have peak and off peak times depending the people that live in them. Certain times of day you could mine them in a hulk for a hour or better without being disturbed. You have to stay out of high traffic systems( AKA pipes)

2) Intel is your friend. You can get system intel before you even get to it if you know where to look. This will give you a basic idea of activity/ threats.

3) scouts are your friends. Use them.

4) Blockade runners= you really almost have to screw up to lose a blockade runner in lowsec. If you lose one with a scout you deserved to get popped for not using either properly.

A good idea might be find a PI buddy in your area of lowsec that plays the same time as you. Ask them to run scout in a covert ops for you and you do the same for them. Everyone wins.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:35:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
How did you lose 200+ million? Did you set up 5 planets with 5 alts before realizing it was a tedious clickfest?

I'm not even trying, and I'm making 7.5-10 million/day in hisec using 5 planets, 2 of which are on 4 day cycle, 2 on a 23 hour cycle, and one planet that doesn't require any clicking except import/export.

My other 3 accounts are not doing PI at the moment, but once were all doing 4 day cycles in w-space.

Ahkii
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:47:00 - [8]
 


I'm up about 2bil, with 5 accounts and almost all at adv command centers.

I have quit mining, missioning, trading, and now just keep my acts trained while buying plexs with profits.

4 day cycles, I spend 2 hours every 4 days ish, for a total of 5 hours a week i guess. I click extractors while watching tv.

easy money

CAPSLOCKBROKE
Viziam
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Ahkii

I'm up about 2bil, with 5 accounts and almost all at adv command centers.

I have quit mining, missioning, trading, and now just keep my acts trained while buying plexs with profits.

4 day cycles, I spend 2 hours every 4 days ish, for a total of 5 hours a week i guess. I click extractors while watching tv.

easy money



BUT YOUR BASICALLY JUST PLAYING FARMVILLE.

=D

I do 5 planets on this guy in 0.0, all 23 hr cycles. They are setup with storage facilities and routing that as long as I get to them 4-5 times a week, they can work all 7 days non-stop. I have someone JF my stuff to jita and JF ships back to 0.0 about once a month.

I make about 300 million in PI stuff at jita, and then about 300 million in profit off the ships he brings me to resell at 0.0. I pay about 30 million for fuel and a really generous tip (takes him about 10 minutes to do and 10 million worth of fuel).

That is how I do PI and its worth it, but these people running 5+ accounts, your wacky!

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.08.06 19:57:00 - [10]
 


Those ideas/guidelines are great. If the cargo I was hauling (PI stuff) was worth more than a few pennies I'd consider it. But for the payoff, none of that is worth the effort - at all. Which is why I bought a crappy economical T1 Industrial to do the job and embraced the opportunity for gankage. I put in as much effort as the PI was worth, which is (should be obvious at this point), not much effort.

When I'm hauling a couple hundred mil worth of mumbo jumbo through 0.0, yes, I'll put in some effort. Ya know what else, I'll actually pay attention to the game too.


Ahkii
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:01:00 - [11]
 



Well...

The accounts were acquired and paid for for some time, so I keep them going. There's not much to do else really, that isn't a pain or just not interesting to me.

I've played EVE for some time now, and I think "the bloom is off the rose" so to speak, but I can't bring myself to un-sub yet with all these chars, some of which are very old.

Someday it will loose its last bit of appeal, but for now, I still like the newness and the possibilities DUST holds. I don't think it will be all that tho, but, the acts are paid for til then, so we'll just have to wait and see

Shonali
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:41:00 - [12]
 

Works really well in a wormhole, we make loads of p1/p2 stuff (too much work to do P0 or all P1) and ship it out to hi-sec every few days. Since we are running a corp alt, I could go back and figure the actual profit, but even w/o doing that I can tell you that it is many billions for the corp (about total 8-10 toons running PI right now). We don't maximize or work at it very hard at all (often miss cycles), and use a hi-sec alt to putter around picking it up and carrying it to Jita/Amarr/Rens.

Berikath
Posted - 2010.08.06 21:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Javajunky
Edited by: Javajunky on 06/08/2010 17:35:03
I know people have abandoned PI but who's looking back now and just treating it as an R&D write off after some serious investment?

I'm out 200M+ ISK, not really mad about it, but I think I'm going to leave PI to the twisted folks who could possibly think this is a mini-game instead of mini-nightmare. Bet's 0.02ISK the tracking metric for PI at CCP is called the Lemming Index.

Might come back if they put a "Recylce All Extractors" on the planet (not holding breath). Gave my planets notice they are closing today. Fortunately I was not in business long enough for my planets to form any unions and I operated in "right to work" systems.

Anyone else take the nosedive and thrown in the towel after making major investments?




Inappropriate topic name:
"Have you taken the PI write off yet?"

Correct topic name:
"Have you taken the lowsec hauling write off yet?"

PI profitability is fine. In fact, you can pretty much pay for a PLEX on 23-hour cycles with 1 character and level 4 skills currently. Given the low entry costs, one could probably make the case that the payout is actually TOO large. I won't, but some might (e.g., the ones who want cheaper PLEXes).

If something needs to be changed about PI, it's the interface. WTB easier ways to set up routing (like, say, a "Get raw materials from HERE!" button on factories). Also, a better way to import/export goods... PLEASE. Nothing like having to split stacks for 15 items, and halfway through the window screws up and closes on you. Extractors? Well, honestly I don't really see a need to have a "restart all" button. However, a screen which just lists them (like there is with the planets?)- Yeah, sure. Just be able to go down the list and restart them all without moving around the planet and navigating 4 menus.

Krawdad
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:26:00 - [14]
 

I havent given up on PI yet either. However I fell for the allure of lowsec planets and find myself trying to haul loads of stuff through for a few % higher yields on extractors. There are a few hours a day where there arent many pirates around, but its also late at night for me so my scouting skills are hampered by my eyes being half shut.

The idea of having a box that shows all your extractors is excellent! I hate having to precisely aim my clicks, i frequently click on the planet or a link on accident and then have to wait for the survey again... Also, i dont understand why you cant export materials from ports unless youre in the system. If i can control everything else from lightyears away, why not the exports? It just makes it a bigger pain to keep storage space free.

It has been profitable though, can't complain on that front. I run two accounts at once, on the same screen and set up extractors at the same time for 2 planets. Line up the windows correctly and hit extract on one window, then switch to the other and hit extract there, select the extract rate on the first and survey another node, select rate and a new node on second window. Rinse and repeat. Much more intensive clicking, but it halves the time and gets me warmed up to go play BFBC2 while extractors cycle lol.

themaker1971
Minmatar
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:33:00 - [15]
 

I gave up. All the effort and too much like RL work. I play eve to de- stress. To much thinking and effort

Towaoc
Caldari
Applied Technologies Inc
Posted - 2010.08.06 22:54:00 - [16]
 

Definitely treating PI as a research project right now, but it's significance to the T2 manufacturing process can not be ignored. As a corp, we have a dozen or so planetary systems that are currently focused on producing some of the materials used as POS fuel and in T2 manufacturing.

The research aspect of PI is fun - figuring out what goes into what, the materials that we need internally, universal supply and demand charactaristics of each of the various materials, etc. Locating, building and optimizing facilities is kinda fun too. Running the installations is a bit arduous, as has been pointed out by more than a few.

Given the current mechanics, the profits earned for the amount of time invested are not exciting, but we'll continue with those facilities in order to be on top of how PI evolves. Clearly, there are areas that can be improved and I'm confident that we'll see improvements to the process as we go forward.


Investigator Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
Posted - 2010.08.07 06:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Investigator Spruillo
Dictors are nulsec.


I assure you, the broadsword who camped the gate and pelted my warp core stabilizer fitted industrial says otherwise.

Honestly, I'd feel really stupid if i was hauling around 10mil worth of cargo 10 jumps in a prowler every day.



A blockade runner with even just 4 warp stabs in the 6 lows along with the native +2 warp strength would take over 2 tacklers to stop. Even 2 tacklers with say.. 1 each true sansha warp scrams would just match your warp strength at +6 and youd still warp away.

That would still leave you with 2 more lows for cargo or plate/rep for bonus. As long as you don't blindly jump into a camp with a blob your fine.

If your too lazy/dont bother with scouting fit all stabs and rig for cargo.
It would take 5 t2 scrams or 9 disruptors to overcome your warp strength fully stabbed

Even if you got scrammed if you have some tank and a 10mn ab (I always use ab if I'm counting on escape AFTER being locked) and an armor rep you could probably make it back to the gate and jump, warp off while they are still stuck with agro timer

What I meant about the dictor is they can only use interdiction spheres in nulsec, which is why blockade runners are great for lo and cov ops haulers best for nul.

Pachira Lotus
Posted - 2010.08.07 07:56:00 - [18]
 

Due to the ridiculus price of pos fuel, i've developed a liking to PI Laughing

I run two large towers & use two accounts with five planets each to produce the fuel required in .5 empire on a 23hr cycleCool

Only buying in ice products & oxygen which is funded by selling BPCs

Hence 100% of manufactorying profit is in my wallet Very Happy

Lord Hamilton1
Posted - 2010.08.07 10:26:00 - [19]
 

Well My take on PI so far, if you find a niche and have a regular supply of processed materials it can be hugely profitable. I have 6 planets with elite command centers and have 3 skills @ 5 and 2 @ 4 so will have all 5 skills @ 5 in 14 days and should be the first character in eve with 5 @ 5. What I am amazed about is the fact its taken nearly 7 weeks to start a local hub around 0.0 where I live. I've looked at all the schematics for all the advanced commodities and have priced everyone and its impossible to make a profit on any of them. I have 4 Planets just manufacturing with 3 planets with Advanced Industry Facilities and the 4th with 16 High Tech Production Plants and that cost cost a total of 80 million isk to set up with elite command centers the other 2 planets are extracting and processing and are full time 24/7.
At the moment I'm building Integrity Response Drones with a whopping 9 refined commodities, I am in partnership with one guy which has 4 characters extracting so he is able to produce 60% of the processed materials but I still have to purchase 3 of the 6 refined commodities from Jita.We are looking at building Control towers Jump bridge's and other infrastructure and if you price out all the materials and work involved to produce them it has no economic viable model. I can produce anything from T2 to advanced commodities but to produce them all is not possible and to buy them off market is to expensive so its a completely crazy idea to produce advanced commodities. I am going to make 1000 Integrity Response Drones which will only take me 2 weeks and will see if I can make a profit but I think no chance.

Pha3drus
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:15:00 - [20]
 

Its possibly the single most boring thing I have ever done in this game.

Javajunky
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:30:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Javajunky on 07/08/2010 13:37:07
I guess I balance a few things in my decision.

Intial Upfront Investment (Adv Command Centers + Planet Set Up Costs + Time Set Up (yes time has a value as we know).

Recycling Time is about an Hour to an 1:15 minutes (I'm padding this number a bit acccounting for corp chat, blah blah).

So call that 35 hours a month in PI upkeep including basic hauls, and that doesn't include hauls required for building T3/T4 item which take it up to about 45 hours a month. What mini-profession is taking up this much time for so little return? And no I'm not doing it wrong. I just look at opportunity cost and see this as a bad use of my time until we get to the point where prices go up dramatically and I turn stuff back on or there's a recycle all button that stops the insantiy.

Droxlyn
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:56:00 - [22]
 

I wrote off my extraction colonies after they paid themselves off. But my 10 factory planets make me 100m in profit each day I run them...

Drox

Xanadu Alexis
Minmatar
First Celestial Investment Group
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:58:00 - [23]
 

I don't see the problem really with PI.
I'm making about 20M a day with 5 planets, and I spend about 15 minutes clicking a day, and another 10 hauling goods.

Sure, it's not billions, but it pays for my Plexes :)

rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
Posted - 2010.08.07 14:13:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Droxlyn
I wrote off my extraction colonies after they paid themselves off. But my 10 factory planets make me 100m in profit each day I run them...

Drox


Is that 100m in trading and research or 100m in PI? That's a whole nother story and have been contemplating the same strategy as you (but interest falls quickly).

Easy way to answer is, how much capitol did it take you to make 100m profit/day.

Quote:
A blockade runner with even just 4 warp stabs in the 6 lows along with the native +2 warp strength would take over 2 tacklers to stop. Even 2 tacklers with say.. 1 each true sansha warp scrams would just match your warp strength at +6 and youd still warp away.


Or maybe just one warp disruption field generator I. The broadsword gets a lock and you it is GG. If i had a deep space transport like you mentioned above I'd be out not only the PI materials i was hauling but also likely a 100m+ ship.

Scifi
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.07 14:58:00 - [25]
 

I was starting to write it off when Nano-factories had a price crash. I did a retool and have finally recovered my initial 60mil investment and then some. So I'm sticking with it until the next product crash happens (recursive computers seems the next to go looking at local markets anyway). When that happens I'll have to rethink keeping a full production line or just scouring for high-yield planets to make the rare p1's. The time investment of a full production line might not be worth the time investment anymore but cranking out p1's does.

Droxlyn
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.07 21:33:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: rain9441
Originally by: Droxlyn
I wrote off my extraction colonies after they paid themselves off. But my 10 factory planets make me 100m in profit each day I run them...

Drox


Is that 100m in trading and research or 100m in PI? That's a whole nother story and have been contemplating the same strategy as you (but interest falls quickly).

Easy way to answer is, how much capitol did it take you to make 100m profit/day.



It takes about 400m in buying stuff, processing it to make 550m or so. I loose a lot in export taxes. I clear between 75m to 150m depending on the quality of the days involved. I don't extract a darned thing.

Drox

Investigator Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:15:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Investigator Spruillo on 08/08/2010 00:16:02
Originally by: rain9441

Quote:
A blockade runner with even just 4 warp stabs in the 6 lows along with the native +2 warp strength would take over 2 tacklers to stop. Even 2 tacklers with say.. 1 each true sansha warp scrams would just match your warp strength at +6 and youd still warp away.


Or maybe just one warp disruption field generator I. The broadsword gets a lock and you it is GG. If i had a deep space transport like you mentioned above I'd be out not only the PI materials i was hauling but also likely a 100m+ ship.



which is why you dont bring a blockade runner to nulsec.
Bubbles and dictors don't work in losec. You already got your mind made up I already explained this. Learn where, when, what and how to use your equipment or just keep feeling sorry for yourself over game mechanics which are meant to be challenging and exiting.
gl hf.

Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2010.08.08 02:03:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Investigator Spruillo

A blockade runner with even just 4 warp stabs in the 6 lows along with the native +2 warp strength would take over 2 tacklers to stop. Even 2 tacklers with say.. 1 each true sansha warp scrams would just match your warp strength at +6 and youd still warp away.

That would still leave you with 2 more lows for cargo or plate/rep for bonus. As long as you don't blindly jump into a camp with a blob your fine.

If your too lazy/dont bother with scouting fit all stabs and rig for cargo.
It would take 5 t2 scrams or 9 disruptors to overcome your warp strength fully stabbed



Fair Point

Originally by: Investigator Spruillo

Bubbles and dictors don't work in losec.



All Very true. Unless the HIC has a Focused Warp Disruption script

" This script can be loaded into a warp disruption field generator to focus its effect upon a single ship much like a standard warp disruptor. This allows the module to scramble ships of any size, including ships normally immune to all forms of electronic warfare"

Voila, infinite warp strength point

Originally by: Investigator Spruillo

Learn where, when, what and how to use your equipment




I couldnt agree more. Physician, heal thyself

Salvatore Chang
Posted - 2010.08.08 02:17:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Salvatore Chang on 08/08/2010 02:17:25
Originally by: Investigator Spruillo
Edited by: Investigator Spruillo on 08/08/2010 00:16:02
Originally by: rain9441

Quote:
A blockade runner with even just 4 warp stabs in the 6 lows along with the native +2 warp strength would take over 2 tacklers to stop. Even 2 tacklers with say.. 1 each true sansha warp scrams would just match your warp strength at +6 and youd still warp away.


Or maybe just one warp disruption field generator I. The broadsword gets a lock and you it is GG. If i had a deep space transport like you mentioned above I'd be out not only the PI materials i was hauling but also likely a 100m+ ship.



which is why you dont bring a blockade runner to nulsec.
Bubbles and dictors don't work in losec. You already got your mind made up I already explained this. Learn where, when, what and how to use your equipment or just keep feeling sorry for yourself over game mechanics which are meant to be challenging and exiting.
gl hf.


Listen a HIC can warp scramble you with a focused warp script. You can slap 50 WCS on your hauler and if a HIC running that script tackles you you are dead regardless of system security status.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2010.08.08 03:21:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Salvatore Chang

you are dead regardless of system security status.


I'm pretty sure CONCORD would like a word with you in highsec.


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