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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:26:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
Such as?....I mean we have FPS games with different classes,specific abilities,different types of weapons and equipement,air vehicles of all types,ground vehicals of all types,all sorts of multiplayer modes too,voice communications,squads and even UAV's and even destructible environments,achievements and special unlocks... So what radical difference can they add that makes their FPS game stand out from others?
Persistence and the sense of accomplishment that comes with it. The same thing that made Planetside special.

Like you said: those are the generic things every shooter has these days, and why none of them count as particularly innovative or interesting. It's what they don't have that matters, and so far, PS is pretty much the only game that has had a successful implementation of persistence. It's also a matter of combinations. Look at Borderlands — the most derivative game of last year: it made the exact right combination of derivative ideas, and thus created a very unique and immensely fun game out of it.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:32:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 07/08/2010 01:38:00
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: digitalwanderer
The market for FPS games in consoles is pretty full basically.


And? that doesn't mean a product can't be good, it just means it has a harder time standing out from the crowd.


It means having to be pretty much perfect in gameplay,balance and bugs right from the start,even when compared to other FPS games,where the companies that developed those competing titles have already developed 5~10 other FPS games in their history,so they have plenty of experience....Do CCP have that kind of experience...No.


One of the most noticable ones is DICE,who've already got more versions of battlefield(+ expansions),than i have fingers over the past 8 years,starting way back in 2002 with battlefield 1942


Oh ye of little knowing what the hell you're talking about... Rolling Eyes



Please,explain it to me then,rather than Rolling Eyes

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.07 13:37:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Such as?....I mean we have FPS games with different classes,specific abilities,different types of weapons and equipement,air vehicles of all types,ground vehicals of all types,all sorts of multiplayer modes too,voice communications,squads and even UAV's and even destructible environments,achievements and special unlocks... So what radical difference can they add that makes their FPS game stand out from others?
Persistence and the sense of accomplishment that comes with it. The same thing that made Planetside special.

Like you said: those are the generic things every shooter has these days, and why none of them count as particularly innovative or interesting. It's what they don't have that matters, and so far, PS is pretty much the only game that has had a successful implementation of persistence. It's also a matter of combinations. Look at Borderlands — the most derivative game of last year: it made the exact right combination of derivative ideas, and thus created a very unique and immensely fun game out of it.


Persistance in what way?....Do you mean fighting on a specific planet for days or even weeks until somebody wins?

The sense of accomplishment is there with every FPS game that has multiplayer and an opposing team to beat.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.07 14:18:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 07/08/2010 14:29:52
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Persistance in what way?....Do you mean fighting on a specific planet for days or even weeks until somebody wins?

The sense of accomplishment is there with every FPS game that has multiplayer and an opposing team to beat.


"persistence" in the context of MMOG terminology means that once something has been done, it stays done.

EVE has persistence in that ships stay destroyed, sovereignty endures until somebody comes in and takes it from you, ammunition can't be recovered, and all items remain in circulation until they have been deleted, destroyed, or used industrially. missions and exploration aren't persistent: sovereignty is.

in DUST, the persistence will come in the form of battle results not being arbitrarily undone after the fact. if side A wins, then side A has won and the territory they were fighting for control of won't revert to side B's control unless side B re-take it in battle.

As for your other comment - a game does NOT have to be polished to absolute shining perfection to stand out from the crowd. If that was the case, HALO would be a forgotten generic shooter series. The elements that make a game commercially successful are much more complex than "has the company making the game ever made an FPS before, y/n?". Planetside is arguably the most successful MMOFPS yet made, but to my knowledge it's also the only FPS that Sony Online Entertainment have ever produced.

So: you don't know what you're talking about.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.07 14:28:00 - [185]
 

Persistence: Even when you're not logged in the universe is still changing and affecting you.


Leonard Delmordaine
Posted - 2010.08.07 15:02:00 - [186]
 

Nope... No way in hell will I ever get a game thats CCP related. I am almost ready to quit eve with there sh** customer service.

Lord Migit
Posted - 2010.08.07 15:33:00 - [187]
 

Only if its on PC.

TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.07 16:14:00 - [188]
 

If theres a PC port i might be persuaded, other than that, **** no.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.07 16:33:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Edited by: Stitcher on 07/08/2010 14:29:52
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Persistance in what way?....Do you mean fighting on a specific planet for days or even weeks until somebody wins?

The sense of accomplishment is there with every FPS game that has multiplayer and an opposing team to beat.


"persistence" in the context of MMOG terminology means that once something has been done, it stays done.

in DUST, the persistence will come in the form of battle results not being arbitrarily undone after the fact. if side A wins, then side A has won and the territory they were fighting for control of won't revert to side B's control unless side B re-take it in battle.





And that's any different from any multiplayer based game,with 2 opposing teams and running domination mode where there's several checkpoints to conquer within the map,control of those multiple points varies all the time between both teams until either side wins,be it by points accumulated or time running out.

It's been done already in multiple FPS games basically and is nothing new....Persistance has to be something else in the case of Dust,perhaps control of that territory not being able to be challenged for certain amount of time once a team has won it(a day,a week,whatever),but then,it becomes a game involving timers,and there's too much of that already going on in eve itself,never mind doing the same for Dust.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.07 16:38:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2010 16:41:38
Originally by: digitalwanderer
And that's any different from any multiplayer based game,with 2 opposing teams and running domination mode where there's several checkpoints to conquer within the map,control of those multiple points varies all the time between both teams until either side wins,be it by points accumulated or time running out.
Yes. Nothing you did has any relevance 5 minutes later, much less tomorrow or a month from now: after the match is over, the map is reset and nothing you did ever mattered. This is not persistence, it's just a match — that's why you talk about "points" or "time running out". Persistent combat has neither.
Quote:
It's been done already in multiple FPS games basically and is nothing new....
No. It has been done once: in Planetside. It was done poorly then, and it was done by SOE (aka Mismanagement'R'Us), and it was still wtfpwnawseome to a degree that those derivative games have no hope in ever achieving, because they lack the fundamental mechanism that makes it possible: persistence.
Quote:
Persistance has to be something else in the case of Dust,
No. It just has to be persistence. What you talk about is not it.

Ressiv
Massive PVPness
Posted - 2010.08.07 16:41:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer

And that's any different from any multiplayer based game,with 2 opposing teams and running domination mode where there's several checkpoints to conquer within the map,control of those multiple points varies all the time between both teams until either side wins,be it by points accumulated or time running out.


You then restart the map and go again. So yeah, not persistent.

Persistant FPS is met when you can't 'reset' the game situation to 'start'. In other words, no running this or that map untill you get bored of it and change the map you play.

It will be interesting to see how they solve all maps looking alike tho.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.07 16:42:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Professor Tarantula
I don't even know how consoles still exist since computers became more affordable.


Because people don't know how to use them. They download **** music and movies. They use windows on their PC's. Their Pc's are half as fast as they should be.

I fix computers professionally for a living. I have NEVER ONCE worked on a windows PC w/o malware.

I AM NOT saying YOU do not know how to use YOUR pc. Everyone reading this thread plays EvE and is therefore inherently smarter than "them". Just saying, "they" dont know how to use a PC.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.07 23:41:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 08/08/2010 00:01:48
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 07/08/2010 16:41:38
Originally by: digitalwanderer
And that's any different from any multiplayer based game,with 2 opposing teams and running domination mode where there's several checkpoints to conquer within the map,control of those multiple points varies all the time between both teams until either side wins,be it by points accumulated or time running out.
Yes. Nothing you did has any relevance 5 minutes later, much less tomorrow or a month from now: after the match is over, the map is reset and nothing you did ever mattered. This is not persistence, it's just a match — that's why you talk about "points" or "time running out". Persistent combat has neither.
Quote:
It's been done already in multiple FPS games basically and is nothing new....
No. It has been done once: in Planetside. It was done poorly then, and it was done by SOE (aka Mismanagement'R'Us), and it was still wtfpwnawseome to a degree that those derivative games have no hope in ever achieving, because they lack the fundamental mechanism that makes it possible: persistence.
Quote:
Persistance has to be something else in the case of Dust,
No. It just has to be persistence. What you talk about is not it.



So persistance has to involve holding and controling said installations?,meaning a permanent military force stationed there to protect it,until some else is able to either take control or even destroy it?...Does this involve timers until it can be attacked perhaps?,as i doubt we'll keep actual console players on 24/7 to protect it at all times,or will NPC's take their place when real players that are part of that team exit the game?,and who'll be nuts enough to hire said mercenaries and supply them with weapons and equipement,knowing that the average PI installation makes about 2 million a day in high sec empire.

Don't just say the word persistance without giving an example on how it would be able to be applied to an FPS shooter,involve EVE the MMO in some way,and please the console crowd at the same time,which aren't known to be patient like people who play EVE itself.

Details people,details....There's a lot of details missing in Dust 514 to say the least.

Djavo
Midas Tycho
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:04:00 - [194]
 

I'm with the PC Crowd, not interested in consoles, if they made a PC version then yes I would give it a go.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:32:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
So persistance has to involve holding and controling said installations?
No. It has to involve a world that exists separate to the players that inhabit it — a world that never ends, or gets reset.
Quote:
Don't just say the word persistance without giving an example on how it would be able to be applied to an FPS shooter,involve EVE the MMO in some way
Again, Planetside is the prime example. Describing it takes longer than the 4k character limit on these posts…

Consider how sovereignty works in EVE, and imagine it being fought over in an infantry/air/ground vehicle FPS instead of using spaceships.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:37:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: LittleTerror
Edited by: LittleTerror on 07/08/2010 04:05:39
If a PC version comes YES if not no, I hate consoles and all the little gimps that play on them.

Originally by: Running missions
shooters are meant for consoles, so if it is on 360 and doesnt suck i will get it


Erm no... If you mean FPS shooters then a keyboard with mouse aiming is vastly superior.


So because you suck at FPS on a console you decree that a PC FPS is better than one on a console? It is a matter of preference. But I am sure you will argue this till you are blue in the face.

I have this feeling that you are mad because you will not be able to use an aim-bot for this game. Crying or Very sad Don't worry, at least you have planetary interaction. So get to double clicking!

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:41:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 08/08/2010 00:42:12
Originally by: Tippia
No. It has to involve a world that exists separate to the players that inhabit it — a world that never ends, or gets reset.




Then what significant role will a mercenary play in Dust 514 when in combat?....Simply conquer or destroy an installation and his/her actions having no effect beyond that point?

Doesn't sound anything special if that's the case.


Quote:
Again, Planetside is the prime example. Describing it takes longer than the 4k character limit on these posts…

Consider how sovereignty works in EVE, and imagine it being fought over in an infantry/air/ground vehicle FPS instead of using spaceships.


With the timers and worrying about stront levels like it is with sovereignty with eve and POS bashing?....That'll go well with the console crowd when they have to wake up at some insane hour to destroy/disable/conquer something.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:50:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
Then what significant role will a mercenary play in Dust 514 when in combat?....Simply conquer or destroy an installation and his/her actions having no effect beyond that point?

Doesn't sound anything special if that's the case.
What would it be like if DE Dust remained exploded and gone for ever once the terrorists manage to win? The significance of the mercs is that their target is gone. Poof. Beyond that point, some poor guy has to plunk down hard-earned ISK to replace it.

What significant role does the fleet that wipes out NOL- play?
Quote:
With the timers and worrying about stront levels like it is with sovereignty with eve and POS bashing?....That'll go well with the console crowd when they have to wake up at some insane hour to destroy/disable/conquer something.
No, that was a simile to how Planetside worked, and it did work on a different time scale. Best-case, a base take-over took 15 minutes…

…best-case rarely happened.

/me gets nasty Vanu-owned interlink lagsher-spam backdoor flashbacks. ughCrying or Very sadLaughing

Sajad
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:50:00 - [199]
 

NO

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:51:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 08/08/2010 00:58:29

Originally by: digitalwanderer
Don't just say the word persistance without giving an example on how it would be able to be applied to an FPS shooter, involve EVE the MMO in some way,and please the console crowd at the same time, which aren't known to be patient like people who play EVE itself.


hah! EVE players are patient are they? So this forum full of whining brats who are demanding this, that or the other to happen RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW IT HAS TO HAPPEN RIGHT THIS SECOND NO ITS TOO LATE IVE ALREADY QUIT BECAUSE CCP HATES US IM JUST COMPLAINING CAUSE I DONT WANT TO WASTE MY REMAINING SUBSCRIPTION WAAAAAAAAA..

*ahem*

so the general loudmouthed, sullen, childish attitude of this forum since Tyrannis came out is wholly the product of patient, balanced people who are prepared to rationally educate themselves of all the salient facts before they reach a conclusion, is it?

Don't generalise. the "console crowd" does not exclusively consist of instant-gratification prats with the attention span of an ADHD kid who's been given too much sugar. Nor does the "PC crowd" or even the EVE community, as evidenced by this very forum (or even this very thread), consist of exclusively reasonable, well-adjusted, level-headed, patient adults.

Given that even the most conservative estimate I could find during a quick Google search placed consoles at about 66% of the games market, I'd say it's a bit bloody elitist of you to assume that because you're a PC gamer, you're part of some glorious master race. Millions and millions of people play games on console. A great many, like me, play on both console AND PC. Most of those millions of people are going to be average human beings, and I tend to believe that the AVERAGE human being is okay. It's individual persons who make me wax misanthropic.

Within those millions are going to be a demographic for whom DUST is just right. Clearly, none of those people are present here, and more power to them. I've had cause to question why I bother to pollute my sanity by visiting this board every day. At least the people who aren't going to get it because they don't own a console and don't feel they can afford one have a valid excuse. Everyone else seems to be holding out from either spite ("NO CAUSE CCP SUK"), willful elitism ("NO CAUSE CONSOLES SUK"), or ignorance ("NO CAUSE ITS NOT THE MOST SUPER SHINY ORIGINAL PERFECT THING EVER!").

Anyway for God's sake man, go play Planetside. It's free, and if we're very fortunate you might walk away from it with something resembling a clue. go ahead, we'll wait. Right now, you simply aren't equipped to be debating persistence in MMOs because it's clear to anyone who actually understands the subject that you don't have the first freaking idea.

but, in the interests of maybe educating you: No, persistence does NOT mean having to leave a permanent garrison force of players. Nullsec alliances don't have to leave permanent garrison forces in place to defend their territory.

Persistence means that whatever you do stays done, and will never be arbitrarily undone by non-player influence. This is not true for, say, Team Fortress 2 where a cosmic reset button gets pressed at the end of the round. In Planetside, this translated to "we took a base. this base is now ours and will remain so until such time as somebody successfully evicts us." There's no point where one game session or "round" ends and another begins - the whole war, all the combat and character progression and general melee, it's all one continuous play session.

That's how it is with EVE, and that is how it will be with DUST.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.08 00:57:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 08/08/2010 01:05:36
Originally by: Tippia
What would it be like if DE Dust remained exploded and gone for ever once the terrorists manage to win? The significance of the mercs is that their target is gone. Poof. Beyond that point, some poor guy has to plunk down hard-earned ISK to replace it.


Considering that PI makes crap for money at least in high sec(about 2 million a day per PI installation),the loss of such PI installation is peanuts for most eve players,which i mentioned in an earlier post BTW....I know that when Dust 514 is here,my PI bases will be removed,so if that's the angle that CCP will use,they'll have to set their own PI installations,because i sure am not going to defend stuff that's not that profitable anyhow.

Quote:
What significant role does the fleet that wipes out NOL- play?


0.0 system with a station already in it,access to high value NPC spawns and asteroid belts for mining,and once a TCU installed and hub fully upgraded to lvl 5,access to extremely high value anomalies to the point of making well over 100 million isk an hour.....It far outstrips the money made with PI in an enourmous way,a night and day difference really,and well worth the commitment in ships to defend it.





digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:01:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
Edited by: Stitcher on 08/08/2010 00:53:19
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Don't just say the word persistance without giving an example on how it would be able to be applied to an FPS shooter, involve EVE the MMO in some way,and please the console crowd at the same time, which aren't known to be patient like people who play EVE itself.


hah! EVE players are patient are they? So this forum full of whining brats who are demanding this, that or the other to happen RIGHT NOW IVE ALREADY QUIT BECAUSE CCP HATES US IM JUST COMPLAINING CAUSE I DONT WANT TO WASTE MY REMAINING SUBSCRIPTION WAAAAAAAAA..

*ahem*

so the general loudmouthed, sullen, childish attitude of this forum since Tyrannis came out is wholly the product of patient, balanced people who are prepared to rationally educate themselves of all the salient facts before they reach a conclusion, is it?

Don't generalise. the "console crowd" does not exclusively consist of instant-gratification prats with the attention span of an ADHD kid who's been given too much sugar. Nor does the "PC crowd" or even the EVE community, as evidenced by this very forum (or even this very thread), consist of exclusively reasonable, well-adjusted, level-headed, patient adults.

Given that even the most conservative estimate I could find during a quick Google search placed consoles at about 66% of the games market, I'd say it's a bit bloody elitist of you to assume that because you're a PC gamer, you're part of some glorious master race. Millions and millions of people play games on console. A great many, like me, play on both console AND PC. Most of those millions of people are going to be average human beings, and I tend to believe that the AVERAGE human being is okay. It's individual persons who make me wax misanthropic.

Within those millions are going to be a demographic for whom DUST is just right. Clearly, none of those people are present here, and more power to them. I've had cause to question why I bother to pollute my sanity by visiting this board every day. At least the people who aren't going to get it because they don't own a console and don't feel they can afford one have a valid excuse. Everyone else seems to be holding out from either spite ("NO CAUSE CCP SUK"), willful elitism ("NO CAUSE CONSOLES SUK"), or ignorance ("NO CAUSE ITS NOT THE MOST SUPER SHINY ORIGINAL PERFECT THING EVER!").

Anyway for God's sake man, go play Planetside. It's free, and if we're very fortunate you might walk away from it with something resembling a clue. go ahead, we'll wait. Right now, you simply aren't equipped to be debating persistence in MMOs because it's clear to anyone who actually understands the subject that you don't have the first freaking idea.

but, in the interests of maybe educating you: No, persistence does NOT mean having to leave a permanent garrison force of players. Nullsec alliances don't have to leave permanent garrison forces in place to defend their territory.

Persistence means that whatever you do stays done, and will never be arbitrarily undone by non-player influence. This is not true for, say, Team Fortress 2 where a cosmic reset button gets pressed at the end of the round. In Planetside, this translated to "we took a base. this base is now ours and will remain so until such time as somebody successfully evicts us." There's no point where one game session or "round" ends and another begins - the whole war, all the combat and character progression and general melee, it's all one continuous play session.

That's how it is with EVE, and that is how it will be with DUST.



I'll keep it short then....I've been playing eve for 7 years now,so patience is my middle name here.

But i will happily agree with you that there are a lot of brats in eve as it is,when most don't realise this is a long term game by it's very design.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:04:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
Considering that PI makes crap for money at least in high sec(about 2 million a day per PI installation),the loss of such PI installation is peanuts for most eve players,which i mentioned in an earlier post BTW.
You missed the point: the significance is that they made an impact on the world. That world is now radically different than it was before.
Quote:
0.0 system with a station already in it,access to high value NPC spawns and asteroid belts for mining,and once a TCU installed and hub fully upgraded to lvl 5,access to extremely high value anomalies to the point of making well over 100 million isk an hour.
…and the same goes here: the significance is that the world has been irrevocably changed. It will stay in this new state until someone comes along and changes it again.

It's a simile to demonstrate persistence in various games — not a comparison between EVE playstyles.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:07:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
I'll keep it short then....I've been playing eve for 7 years now,so patience is my middle name here.

But i will happily agree with you that there are a lot of brats in eve as it is,when most don't realise this is a long term game by it's very design.


Heh, that's a fair response. Especially after the rant I just launched into.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:07:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: digitalwanderer on 08/08/2010 01:11:14
Edited by: digitalwanderer on 08/08/2010 01:07:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: digitalwanderer
Considering that PI makes crap for money at least in high sec(about 2 million a day per PI installation),the loss of such PI installation is peanuts for most eve players,which i mentioned in an earlier post BTW.
You missed the point: the significance is that they made an impact on the world. That world is now radically different than it was before.
Quote:
0.0 system with a station already in it,access to high value NPC spawns and asteroid belts for mining,and once a TCU installed and hub fully upgraded to lvl 5,access to extremely high value anomalies to the point of making well over 100 million isk an hour.
…and the same goes here: the significance is that the world has been irrevocably changed. It will stay in this new state until someone comes along and changes it again.

It's a simile to demonstrate persistence in various games — not a comparison between EVE playstyles.



People here care about money more that the idealogical/social/political/strategic impact said actions have on the overall gameworld.


To encourage people to get involved with Dust 514 from the EVE side of things,the impact on their finances in terms of lost revenue has to be significant for them to bother defending/sending mercenaries to defend their assets....

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:11:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: digitalwanderer
People here care about money more that the idealogical/social/political/strategic impact said actions have on the overall gameworld.
The nifty thing about persistence is that that the two can be the same…

…as is the case in EVE, and as can be the case in Dust.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:12:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 08/08/2010 01:12:28
Originally by: Stitcher
hah! EVE players are patient are they? So this forum full of whining brats who are demanding this, that or the other to happen RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW IT HAS TO HAPPEN RIGHT THIS SECOND NO ITS TOO LATE IVE ALREADY QUIT BECAUSE CCP HATES US IM JUST COMPLAINING CAUSE I DONT WANT TO WASTE MY REMAINING SUBSCRIPTION WAAAAAAAAA..

*ahem*

so the general loudmouthed, sullen, childish attitude of this forum since Tyrannis came out is wholly the product of patient, balanced people who are prepared to rationally educate themselves of all the salient facts before they reach a conclusion, is it?

Don't generalise. the "console crowd" does not exclusively consist of instant-gratification prats with the attention span of an ADHD kid who's been given too much sugar. Nor does the "PC crowd" or even the EVE community, as evidenced by this very forum (or even this very thread), consist of exclusively reasonable, well-adjusted, level-headed, patient adults.

Given that even the most conservative estimate I could find during a quick Google search placed consoles at about 66% of the games market, I'd say it's a bit bloody elitist of you to assume that because you're a PC gamer, you're part of some glorious master race. Millions and millions of people play games on console. A great many, like me, play on both console AND PC. Most of those millions of people are going to be average human beings, and I tend to believe that the AVERAGE human being is okay. It's individual persons who make me wax misanthropic.

Within those millions are going to be a demographic for whom DUST is just right. Clearly, none of those people are present here, and more power to them. I've had cause to question why I bother to pollute my sanity by visiting this board every day. At least the people who aren't going to get it because they don't own a console and don't feel they can afford one have a valid excuse. Everyone else seems to be holding out from either spite ("NO CAUSE CCP SUK"), willful elitism ("NO CAUSE CONSOLES SUK"), or ignorance ("NO CAUSE ITS NOT THE MOST SUPER SHINY ORIGINAL PERFECT THING EVER!").

Anyway for God's sake man, go play Planetside. It's free, and if we're very fortunate you might walk away from it with something resembling a clue. go ahead, we'll wait. Right now, you simply aren't equipped to be debating persistence in MMOs because it's clear to anyone who actually understands the subject that you don't have the first freaking idea.

but, in the interests of maybe educating you: No, persistence does NOT mean having to leave a permanent garrison force of players. Nullsec alliances don't have to leave permanent garrison forces in place to defend their territory.

Persistence means that whatever you do stays done, and will never be arbitrarily undone by non-player influence. This is not true for, say, Team Fortress 2 where a cosmic reset button gets pressed at the end of the round. In Planetside, this translated to "we took a base. this base is now ours and will remain so until such time as somebody successfully evicts us." There's no point where one game session or "round" ends and another begins - the whole war, all the combat and character progression and general melee, it's all one continuous play session.

That's how it is with EVE, and that is how it will be with DUST.
This could not have been said any better. Very well done.


Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:15:00 - [208]
 

well it's hard to comment yet becase A) PI isn't finished and is in the pipeline to have more done to it and B) we don't know how much DUST corps will expect to be paid in. I can't imagine that it'll be much by the standards of an EVE player. What's a crate of assault rifles worth relative to the value of a battlecruiser?

If the future upgrades to PI suddenly turn it from being a trickle of passive income to a serious affair that players are really going to want to fight over, then the question is moot.

digitalwanderer
Gallente
DF0 incorporated
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:20:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: digitalwanderer
People here care about money more that the idealogical/social/political/strategic impact said actions have on the overall gameworld.
The nifty thing about persistence is that that the two can be the same…

…as is the case in EVE, and as can be the case in Dust.



Then the amount of money that can be made by having installations on the planet surface has to increase drastically from where it is now,and has to apply all over the eve map,meaning high sec,low sec,0.0 and even sleeper space,in other for eve player to bother spending money defending them.


Otherwise,Dust 514 lives in it's own universe where installations are set up and defended/attacked with no actual EVE player intervention at all....It's basically it's own game,even though Dust 514 players know it's run as part of the eve universe.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.08 01:25:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 08/08/2010 01:26:28
Yeah. It's just facepalm watching people argue **** they obviously just don't know. Hell, this guy doesn't even know what persistence is and is "debating" about it. The same goes with Incarna and DUST. No one knows much but it doesn't stop a loud-mouthed minority in critisizing and knocking on it. And they don't have the patience to let CCP first develop it and once it's ready give us more details of what they have. No. They act like they're investors and CCP OWES them a business plan and business strategy like YESTERDAY! And if CCP doesn't give them that business plan now or CCP doesn't stop investing their resources in what they personally don't like they're pulling out of the business deal, because their $14.95 is not being invested in what it should Rolling Eyes.



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