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Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.04 16:03:00 - [1]
 

I saw a topic on it that dates back to a year ago and it was just a bunch of people talking about how bad it is and haven't found a new topic on it.. anyways, what I intended on saying was:

When I started out playing, my dream was to own a titan.. when I found out that that was never to happen.. I lost a whole lot of interest in the game.

Then I found the Hel. I'm in love with this ship, so to speak.

If I am to understand that this ship sucks.. I have no purpose playing.

It's the only ship I really want now.

Bottom line is: Does it really suck? Is it just pretty? Will I be able to compete with other people at all?

P.S. Excuse my noobness and dramatic performance. This is just really important to me.

Thanks,
Matha

MuffinsRevenger
Kenny Starfighter Appreciation Club
Posted - 2010.08.04 16:15:00 - [2]
 

The reason people say it sucks is because of quite a few factors that add up to a underwhelming whole
It's got less hitpoints then it's colleges, when EHP is vital for it's class
It's got a tank aimed at shield, when most capital-fleets use armor (this applies to wyvern as well ofc, but you don't really see a lot of those either)
It's got bonuses that do absolutly nothing of relevance to it's real role
Plus a few other minor points, resulting in that if you can fly any of the other supercaps, there are reasons to chose any of them over the hel

That aside though, it's still has a lot of hitpoints, a lot of dps and all the other upsides of motherships, making it able to eat dreadnoughts just fine, so if you really want to you can off course fly it, even though you in particular should probably not do so before understanding the fundamentals of capitals themselves ^^

Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.04 16:23:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: MuffinsRevenger
The reason people say it sucks is because of quite a few factors that add up to a underwhelming whole
It's got less hitpoints then it's colleges, when EHP is vital for it's class
It's got a tank aimed at shield, when most capital-fleets use armor (this applies to wyvern as well ofc, but you don't really see a lot of those either)
It's got bonuses that do absolutly nothing of relevance to it's real role
Plus a few other minor points, resulting in that if you can fly any of the other supercaps, there are reasons to chose any of them over the hel

That aside though, it's still has a lot of hitpoints, a lot of dps and all the other upsides of motherships, making it able to eat dreadnoughts just fine, so if you really want to you can off course fly it, even though you in particular should probably not do so before understanding the fundamentals of capitals themselves ^^


Thanks a lot.
I'm of course not expecting to be flying it anytime soon (:
Currently working my way towards the Hurricane.

Good to know that at least it's not a 'useless' ship!

I care a lot about the look of the ship. So, I suppose I could sacrifice some performance for the aethstetic of it.

La5eR
Amarr
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2010.08.04 17:32:00 - [4]
 

I know you might want the Hel to fly. If you are just now working your way toward a hurricane and havent trained that deep into shields. I would strongly recommend you try to get into an Aeon/Archon. These ships are the creme de le creme when it comes to the ship class that you are aiming for. The Aeon/Archon are only 3 or so more months off the beaten Minmatar path. All the while swapping the existing training time for shields with armor. Youll also be able to with a short detour(2 months) be able to have a pretty rad Arty Abaddon if you like proj instead of energy.

Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:16:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Matha Soulscar on 04/08/2010 18:21:13
This is the path I'm looking at Hurricane>Maelstrom>Hel

I'm going for it. Eventually.

I find the Aeon/Archon ships to be ..well.. not of my taste.

Not looking to be the next big player.. so I'm fine with not being all powerful (:

P.S. How long do you think it would take me to acquire one? (I've been playing for about 12 days now and I consider myself fairly acquainted with the game.)

MuffinsRevenger
Kenny Starfighter Appreciation Club
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:32:00 - [6]
 

This is why i was talking about you needing to research alot more before even starting to plan for them

First of, a mothership goes for between 9-18 billion depending on if you build it/buy it, and then requires another 3-6 billion isk worth of gear in order to be "decent"
Second, you can't dock them anywhere, ever
this means that you have to use it as a "coffin" or that you need a separate account able to fly it in order to log of inside it while you sneak around in your main
After that, just like all caps, it's restricted to cynos, attracts other angry people like files and require a decent knowledge of the game to keep you from doing stupid mistakes leading to a depressing death

Since your obviously new to the game, start by finding a decent 0.0 alliance and get some pvp under your belt, together with a more longer goal of flying a niddhogur in a few fights to understand how carriers work
After that you may concider if you can someone make the billions required to build it, and if you can find someone trustworthy enough to buy it from (it's very construction is a complicated process)

Motherships are the second biggest ships in game, they are not intended as a newbship, nor are they really on the regular progression-path that most people tend to follow, hopefully you are now beginning to understand why :p

Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:44:00 - [7]
 

Thanks for being understanding and patient with my newbness. (:

It may end up just being a dream and left there.
But, I would most certainly love to end up with one.

I'm probably in way over my head with this but we'll just see where it goes (:

The Nighoggur is a very nice and similar ship. May end up with that.

Echoezz
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:54:00 - [8]
 

Also consider the rare usage of the ship. Most cap pilots will sit docked or on POS for days just waiting for a cyno-in to engage enemies. Unless you're in a MAJOR alliance name with an active war going on, you'll probably only get use of your supercarrier once every 1-3 months. And even the major alliances probably only use their supercaps once a week at best. And caps/supercaps should really only be "undocked" with a support fleet nearby. These aren't solo play toys.

It's great to have goals in this game to keep you interested in it, but if nothing else in this game keeps you happy then I worry for you. And also as mentioned, plan on 3+ years of straight training followed by some 15-20Bil to purchase and fit your ship.

Learn to enjoy other aspects of this game, and prepare yourself for the fun, boredom, and drama that comes with years of game time. Fly safe. o7 (hurricane rox btw)

Xephys
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2010.08.05 16:23:00 - [9]
 

As was said, not to crush your dream or anything, but not only is the chance of getting into a mothership pretty rare, you'll also be limited to POS bashing and the occasional cap fight - or for ganking a station-hugging carrier in lowsec or something, though that in itself is a risky prospect.

So yeah, go and find something that you can enjoy in eve currently. Longshot, but carriers/SCs rely on drones for damage, so maybe go and see if sub-cap drone ships appeal to you?

Otocinclus
Minmatar
Project Nemesis
Moar Tears
Posted - 2010.08.05 17:21:00 - [10]
 

Well, to put it bluntly, I don't think you should start even thinking about capitals for the next 3-4 years, and supercapitals for the next 5. If you get a carrier or dread, you might use it for the occasional pos bust or cap fight. If you get a supercap, you'll basically never leave it. Very few people fly supercaps on their mains, because not only is it too dangerous, but you basically have to be in it 23/7. If you really, really want a Hel, I suggest getting a second account and training that towards it, while grinding roughly 15 billion isk on your main for the next few years.

Also, Hurricane>Mael>Hel is a completely unreasonable jump. You're overlooking ceptors, HACs, Command ships, AFs, HICs, and even crosstraining.

phantomshura
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.05 17:27:00 - [11]
 

you are at least 2 years away from that ship in skills only, a motherships its the drone support version of a titan its a flying coffing... and a uber juicy target, i wouldnt mind doing 25 jump to kill one just saying... adn thats 1-2 jumb with my dread =p

Cade Windstalker
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.05 19:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Otocinclus
Well, to put it bluntly, I don't think you should start even thinking about capitals for the next 3-4 years, and supercapitals for the next 5. If you get a carrier or dread, you might use it for the occasional pos bust or cap fight. If you get a supercap, you'll basically never leave it. Very few people fly supercaps on their mains, because not only is it too dangerous, but you basically have to be in it 23/7. If you really, really want a Hel, I suggest getting a second account and training that towards it, while grinding roughly 15 billion isk on your main for the next few years.

Also, Hurricane>Mael>Hel is a completely unreasonable jump. You're overlooking ceptors, HACs, Command ships, AFs, HICs, and even crosstraining.



I want to fly a Wyvern on my main and I'll be sitting in it in three years (please note, account has about 2.2 mil SP right now) so your estimates either assume MASSIVE cross training (not for everyone) or you're inflating your numbers by assuming a very sub-optimal training progression.

You also have the option of training an alt on another account just to sit in the ship and log off in it so your main can still fly it for combat and the alt just lives in it when you're not fighting with it. Just sitting in a Super Carrier is probably six months of training at best. Flying one and fitting it well means you'd better have all of the support and fitting skills maxed or near so.

Part of the reason the Hel is under used is because it's unique bonus is to remote repping, a field usually left to Logistics ships and Carriers. Super Carriers these days get mainly used for turning dreads and POSs into piles of scrap. If you work hard though and you get good at those roles then you could find yourself as Super-Cap support in a large fleet.

Keep this in mind: no ship in Eve is TRUELY useless. Some are far less used than others and people will argue about training times and niche roles vs expense ad-infinitum but in the end the only thing that REALLY matters is what you want to fly and have fun doing. If someone doesn't like it then tell them to go have their fun and leave you to yours.

Lady Ayeipsia
Posted - 2010.08.05 19:38:00 - [13]
 

And also, remember that as you play the game, you'll start to find other things you may like or want to do, and may grow to love other ships. I'll give some examples.

When I started, I wanted to be the best Battleship Pilot possible, in fact, I was in love with the Rokh and wanted nothing more than to kick major tail with it. Well... the more I played, the less I liked the idea of battleships. I found myself drawn more and more into the world of Tech 2 frigates. Now, I love my Hounds and Manticore, and well, one Rokh sits collecting dust, the other mined ore for me till it was popped by a war target when I wasn't paying attention.

Another friend of mine, swore he would never get above a Drake. That was his dream ship, and nothing more. Now he still loves his drake, but well, he started getting into Electronic Warfare and, despite swearing never to train battleship originally, well, he's shooting for a scorpion.

As for ships, go look at the Moa. Ugly little Cruiser ain't it? I thought so once. Then I ran missions in for a long while. Slowly that ungainly beast grew on me till I will defend to the death that little nessie looking ship! LOL

Private Bank
Posted - 2010.08.05 19:50:00 - [14]
 

"I have no purpose playing.

It's the only ship I really want now."

WTF? Shocked you chose hel cus of the looks? you think this is SIMS?
Or just cus u got carrier and now wanna take it to next lvl? do pvp with x-type stuff and you will have a purpose to play eve for...

Shadowace666
Posted - 2010.08.05 19:53:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Shadowace666 on 05/08/2010 19:54:13
Edited by: Shadowace666 on 05/08/2010 19:53:57
Nyx and Aeon are also better cause of the available implants in eve.
For Example you can boost the armor hitpoints of a nyx from 2.2 to 3.4 million when you use a high grade slave set...
thats a big difference and there are no implants for shield tanks with this effect.
Train for a Nyx it is sexy, does the most damage and has a big drone bay.
Aeon is good too but it does not look verry nice ...

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.08.05 20:32:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Cade Windstalker
I want to fly a Wyvern on my main and I'll be sitting in it in three years (please note, account has about 2.2 mil SP right now) so your estimates either assume MASSIVE cross training (not for everyone) or you're inflating your numbers by assuming a very sub-optimal training progression.


Not by all that much. I just EVEMon'd a Nyx for a nearly blank character and came to a dedicated training plan with optimized learning skills and +4 implants (but I didn't plan remaps) that came to over 550 days and had no real frills at all. Including no non-fighter weapons and no T2 ships.

I guess I could deal with that on an alt account but this is one of those cases where the character literally couldn't play until the plan was very nearly done (without drone support skills, which don't apply to fighters or fighter-bombers, the first viable ship would be a Thanatos; adding drone support skills would make it a fairly narrow RR Dominix or -- if you throw in Dread skills, a Moros).

Oh, and did I mention that the skills books come to about 1.6 bil? And with the ship ten times that and the fittings another 5-8 bil, it kinda adds up. Before accounting for sov and whatever corporation(s) and POS's you feel you need to make sure the SC isn't a flaming ball of dust and/or stolen within the first week of owning it.

But yeah. There's nothing wrong with having an SC as a goal. If it were me, I'd get distracted along the way and consider it a good thing. It's not a particularly easy undertaking, and the 550 day plan is still optimistic if you account for needing some way to fund your eventual dream ship. That doesn't mean you shouldn't shoot for it though. (But I'd at least take the time to be able to fly a decent Rifter -- and probably a Hurricane/Drake/whatever -- in the meantime.)

local 81
Posted - 2010.08.05 22:18:00 - [17]
 

Hel, Minmatar Carrier Skill Bonuses:
50% bonus to Capital Shield and Armor transfer range per level
5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Projected Electronic Counter Measures
Can deploy 3 additional Fighters or Fighter Bombers per level
Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
200% bonus to Fighter and Fighter Bomber control range Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare

Nidhoggur, Minmatar Carrier Skill Bonuses:
50% bonus to Capital Shield and Armor transfer range per level
5% bonus to Shield and Armor transfer amount per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration modules
Can deploy 1 additional Fighter or Drone per level
200% bonus to Fighter control range

Nyx, Gallente Carrier Skill Bonuses:
50% bonus to Capital Shield and Armor transfer range per level
5% bonus to deployed Fighters or Fighter Bomber damage per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Projected Electronic Counter Measures
Can deploy 3 additional Fighters or Fighter Bombers per level
Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
200% bonus to Fighter and Fighter Bomber control range
Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare

Thanatos, Gallente Carrier Skill Bonuses:
50% bonus to Capital Shield and Armor transfer range per level
5% bonus to deployed Fighters’ damage per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration modules
Can deploy 1 additional Fighter or Drone per level
200% bonus to Fighter control range

I wont get the others but, I bet, IF used correctly, they would be very effective. FK what all the haters say and think...

Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.06 01:45:00 - [18]
 

After ready the replies, I realize that I was being rather dramatic in saying that I won't have a purpose playing and it's the only ship I'll ever want... I was just being a tiny bit 'optimistic'. But, after having my dreams crushed.. I'm moving on to other things (:

Thank you all.

Lord's Servant
Amarr
Hard Rock Mining Co.
The Jagged Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.06 13:44:00 - [19]
 

first off....don't listen to the haters and let ur dreams be crushed (assuming ur not just trying to get em to go away)

Waaaaaaay back in 2006 when I first started this game I was almost exactly in your shoes :) I lived back in the days when the MC reigned supreme and the mothership was an unstoppable weapon that could single handedly destroy entire alliances. (D2 anyone?)

As a noob, I always wanted a mothership. I got into some eft whoring when that came out, started to like the wyvern more and more. By that point I had a second account, and decided to train that char up for caldari capitals. I think Im started to ramble and reminisce.....but here's my advice :P

-Dont let anyone crush ur dreams.
-If you're serious, get a second account, even if you dont end up getting an SC, you wont ever regret it :)
-Train second account for capitals, see how much you like them, how comfortable you are with having to rely on others to move around (protip - capitals cant use gates, and supercaps, ms, titan, cant dock anywhere)
-If by that time you really like your capitals, start maxing the skills for em on that char, and start collecting isk. My alt basically began to live in his chimera, and I was, and am, 100% comfortable living out of a POS.
-With that realization I understood that, yes, I was fully comfortable with my alt being "stuck" in a supercarrier. Somewhat recently I fulfilled my dream, and I currently own a wyvern :)

In conclusion, dont let ppl crush ur dreams or w/e, just be fully informed before you make any major decisions.

The reason why most of these ppl are saying 5 years or w/e, is because simply having the skills for an SC is a small fraction of the overall picture. You need to be 150% experienced with capitals and carriers in general, and you need to have the number of accounts and cynoalts to move yourself around in place, and/or be in a very good position in a large alliance. I think that in general we all mean well, but some of us say it in nicer ways than others. (And I dont think half of the ppl here giving u advice personally have an SC :P)

Enjoy ur dreams, and play eve like you want to, just make sure you have the experience and knowledge to do your things without getting dissapointed in them. :)

-Lord's Servant

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:24:00 - [20]
 

I have no doubt you can do it if you really want it enough. I started playing in July 2006. By May 2007 I had built my own Nyx (although obviously using a bought character to fly it). The key to it was having a solid 0.0 alliance to play with and help me.

Originally by: Shadowace666
Nyx and Aeon are also better cause of the available implants in eve.
For Example you can boost the armor hitpoints of a nyx from 2.2 to 3.4 million when you use a high grade slave set...
thats a big difference and there are no implants for shield tanks with this effect.

This is not true. The significant resists difference between Invuln fields and EANMs mean that shield tankers can compensate for the lack of a Slave set. The Wyvern is easily capable of matching Aeons and Nyxes in EHP using the same meta-level items.
The real issue is high meta shield tanking modules are hideously expensive because of lower drop rates and every mission-running empire dweller wanting them. Shield-tanking supercaps typically need to settle for less EHP or end up spending more on their tank than the ship itself.

A shield slave set doesn't fix anything, we need drop rates looked at instead.

Exordium8
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:34:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Exordium8 on 06/08/2010 14:34:03
Originally by: Matha Soulscar
Edited by: Matha Soulscar on 04/08/2010 18:21:13
This is the path I'm looking at Hurricane>Maelstrom>Hel

I'm going for it. Eventually.

I find the Aeon/Archon ships to be ..well.. not of my taste.

Not looking to be the next big player.. so I'm fine with not being all powerful (:

P.S. How long do you think it would take me to acquire one? (I've been playing for about 12 days now and I consider myself fairly acquainted with the game.)

This made me laugh

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:34:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Matha Soulscar
After ready the replies, I realize that I was being rather dramatic in saying that I won't have a purpose playing and it's the only ship I'll ever want... I was just being a tiny bit 'optimistic'. But, after having my dreams crushed.. I'm moving on to other things (:

Thank you all.


Meh, not trying to crush your dreams. If you really want a SC, get one. The road is long, and god forbid you walk it and get it blown up the first time you take it out, but it's doable.

But I guess I should add the caveat here that I hate flying anything larger than a BC unless I have a very specific purpose for it. Actually moving is more fun (for me) and so a SC just seems... odd. Three out of four do look quite awesome though. I'm glad to see them even if I never want to sit in one.

Amda Tori
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:39:00 - [23]
 

Go for a carrier first, not a super carrier and see if you enjoy it.
The risk of losing a Supercarrier, if you're playing solo, its very high and the loss in isk its... over the meter:)
Get a carrier, its more versatile and way cheaper.
But, even if you get a carrier, if you're playing solo, you're stuck in that system. :)

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2010.08.06 16:23:00 - [24]
 

If you have a dream of owning and flying one, then go for it. You pay for the game, you play as you wish.
That said however, you must gain a lot of knowledge about flying a Super cap first, also having and alt to log off with the ship is pretty much a must.

In regards to the HEL as a ship for it's role, well it has a meh bonus which it's smaller sibling carries out better and cheaper.
But this is known to CCP and even though they tend to drag their proverbial heels on changes, they do sometimes come through with a good one.

In the time you'll have the skills and an alt to log it off with, it could very well be a must have SC.

Matha Soulscar
Posted - 2010.08.06 17:37:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Matha Soulscar on 07/08/2010 01:22:07
Thanks for not dragging me way down... again (:

Nice words Lord's Servant.

I guess my goal now will be to acquire a Nidhoggur. Always liked that ship, I just preferred the larger version (:

However long it takes, I'll eventually have my carrier and then after that, possibly a super carrier. Who knows?

And I'm definitely planning on being in a 0.0 alliance when I finally get my carrier.

Anyone have any more times for me? (:

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2010.08.06 18:40:00 - [26]
 

One other note that people here seem to have missed - with supercaps, you only get the default insurance payout (due to not being able to dock to insure them) and it's set at a really low level compared to smaller classes of ship. You'll lose over 90% of what you paid for it if it blows up.

Also, the vast majority of SC compression quotes I provide are for Nyx / Aeon / Wyvern packs. Hel is a distant fourth.

Ap0ll0n
Gallente
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.06 20:50:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: xttz
This is not true. The significant resists difference between Invuln fields and EANMs mean that shield tankers can compensate for the lack of a Slave set. The Wyvern is easily capable of matching Aeons and Nyxes in EHP using the same meta-level items.
The real issue is high meta shield tanking modules are hideously expensive because of lower drop rates and every mission-running empire dweller wanting them. Shield-tanking supercaps typically need to settle for less EHP or end up spending more on their tank than the ship itself.

A shield slave set doesn't fix anything, we need drop rates looked at instead.


Uh, what? X-type shield mods are so damn cheap, the only expensive shield mods, are officer invuls. And have you checked price of a-type eanm's?

And Wyvern can get around similar ehp as Nyx, but it comes no where near the Aeon.

Miriam Letisse
Posted - 2010.08.07 00:56:00 - [28]
 

What's a mothership?

Perfection Tau
Cuties Only.
Posted - 2010.08.07 02:14:00 - [29]
 

I think in EVE one should base decisions on objective, getting right tools to complete it.
"I wanna do something in ship X but I don't know what is it good for" is wrong
"I wanna do X well and need an apropriate ship for that" is the correct aproach

Caps and supercaps are niche ships, not as nearly multipurpose as subcaps and nowhere near as fun, they are nothing but a tool for very specific tasks.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.09 10:24:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ap0ll0n

Uh, what? X-type shield mods are so damn cheap, the only expensive shield mods, are officer invuls. And have you checked price of a-type eanm's?

And Wyvern can get around similar ehp as Nyx, but it comes no where near the Aeon.


Meta 13 Inulvn fields (Vepas) are currently 7-8bn on contract.
Meta 13 EANM's (A-Types) are currently 550m-650m on contract.

Now for a comparison between SC's, using all available slots for their tank with meta 14 hardeners and meta 13 eanm/invuln. Armour tankers both have HG slaves:

Nyx: 36m EHP before gang bonus, 51m with erebus
Aeon: 53m EHP before bonus, 74m with erebus
Wyvern: 45m EHP before bonus (plus 4.6k dps passive tank), 62m with levi
Hel: 34m EHP before bonus (plus 5.5k dps passive tank), 47m with levi

If you factor in the passive regeneration and higher average resists (remote rep modules are 25% more effective on Wyverns than Aeons in this example) there isn't a major difference.

Of course no one would fit a shield tanking SC with meta 13 invulns, because they are currently around 25bn for 3. The answer is not a 'shield slave set'. Instead there should be meta 13 invulns dropped in deadspace missions in the same way as A-Type EANMs.



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