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tribalfreak
Posted - 2010.08.03 14:51:00 - [1]
 

i've played mmorpgs for years. years of riddling other players with arrows, zapping them with lightening, and chopping them with my migthy ax. but this is the only mmo that actually makes my heart race as fast as my rifter with it's MWD active during pvp. not saying that i have vast pvp experience mind you, i have only been in a fight like 5 times, 3 i lost, 1 i ran away (went looking for a fight and ended up almost getting ****d by 5 ppl) and another were i helped a corp member and an alliance member scare off a nuet in 0.0 (we were in ratting bs so we couldn't lock the sucker down to kill him.)

in all of these confrontations my adrenaline was pumping, something i find rather odd after all this is just a game and i had pvp experiences in other games countless times i would think i would be use to players poping up on me, hell my first fight was against a WT and my freaking hands were shaking like a leaf, which resulted in me activating my smartbomb at the gate by mistake, resulting in a concord response that left me floating in my pod (almost got podded cos i was laughing my ass off at the whole situation). so why? why is eve so different from other mmos? what does it have that the others don't? i gatta say eve has hands down the best pvp ever and i hope to pvp more often in the future when my skills are better trained


P.S LOL feel free to lol at my concord ganking me experience.


Cire XIII
Caldari
Ever Flow
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:00:00 - [2]
 

You hit the nail on the head of Eve PvP. Topics like this one are always a pleasure to read.

I am certain that the answer lies in the risks at hand coupled with the overwhelming desire to win. The difference between playing a poker game for fun and playing for cash (or the deed to your car/house/wife/first born).

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:01:00 - [3]
 

If Eve pvp didn't have real loss, it'd be some of the dullest pvp of any game.

Thats why it has loss.

STO online combat (from the videos) looks pretty fun, but then again I hear theres little to no real loss in that game. Fun PvP without loss is just like playing a FPS.

Now if someone combined Eve loss with actual Fun pvp? Now we're talking...

TheBlueMonkey
Gallente
Fags R Us
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:10:00 - [4]
 

What they said,

There's meaning to pvp in eve,
You do what ever it is you do to get the isk to buy the ship that you want to fly in, then if you die, you lose that ship.
There is no "repair for 1 gold" or what not.
On top of this, just by undocking you open yourself up to pvp, so, it's fun :)

Now if they could make it more than "orbit at x, repeat fire weapons" that'd be nice.

Cebraio
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:12:00 - [5]
 

I know what you mean. When I fought my first interceptor 1vs1 my heart was pumping like hell and I felt the pressure in my spine. I never had such intense moments in an FPS (I don't play other MMOs). It happened also later on a few occasions, but unfortunately* it seems to fade after some fights.

* or fortunately, because I was afraid my abdominal aorta could burst and that would be an embarrassing death. Neutral

Some people say it's the amount of ISK (relative to player's wealth) that you can lose within seconds in a fight in EVE, that makes a difference to other games where death doesn't have a real impact. Maybe it's true, because the more money I make the more relaxed I lose my ships.

But maybe it comes back with 1vs1 fights, which I haven't been into lately.

Hari Markkus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:13:00 - [6]
 

I wish I got the hand shaking, heart thumping experience of the OP. For me PvP is much like PvE, except that instead of red crosses shooting me it is white boxes.

Sometimes I feel so detached from the whole thing, I play with my screen zoomed way out, I don't see my ship, I don't see my target. My interaction is limited to hearing the targets name and shooting at it.

And after a while even the ship losses don't hurt, I have so many ships scattered around that I can usually find one that meets my needs. And if not battleships are so cheap now I can just get a new one.

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari
Head Shrinkers
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:14:00 - [7]
 

Eve comes with a tremendous grind or rl cah to get the iskes needed for pvp, unless you're flying a cheap fitted t1 frig/cruiser.

I don't play other games. But, I seriously doubt they have the same grind as eve.
So, the loss is more significant. good, bad or otherwise it sucks to loss ships.

imho, something should be done to lessen the grind. more fun for everyone flying ships they trianed years for instead of t1 frigs/cruisers.


Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:21:00 - [8]
 

Doing PVP/Ops with ships that approach the cost of a plex (1 month game time) is very fun and exciting.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Psychotic Maniac
Eve comes with a tremendous grind or rl cah to get the iskes needed for pvp, unless you're flying a cheap fitted t1 frig/cruiser.

I don't play other games. But, I seriously doubt they have the same grind as eve.
So, the loss is more significant. good, bad or otherwise it sucks to loss ships.

imho, something should be done to lessen the grind. more fun for everyone flying ships they trianed years for instead of t1 frigs/cruisers.




I disagree. Eve Onlines combat system cannot stand up without the grind, the grind is what makes the combat worth doing. This is because you know the amount of work it generally takes to get the ships you're killing.

The Eve combat system is weak at best, while there is some skill involved (maybe 10-15%) the real win comes from fitting a good ship, knowing what you can take, and most of all knowing what your ENEMY can do. So in that sense, knowledge is power in Eve. Which makes it more like Chess than Modern Warfare.

That being, picking up and moving a chess in itself isn't very exciting. Though this is a complaint that will probably never be adressed, I would love for the entire Eve combat system (NOTE I SAID COMBAT SYSTEM, NOT GAME) be thrown out and redone from the ground up to incorporate less of the numbers game and more of the skill of the pilot.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:25:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Wacktopia on 03/08/2010 15:31:03

You can actually PVP rather than having to go to some lame "PVP World" or "PVP Instance". You can kill the innocent. You can hunt the weak. You can be killed for thinking you are safe.

Edit: Beyond all - losing your ship or being podded in EVE normally means something. It is a loss, a blemish on your soul. You will have lost something significant to you and perhaps even more - a solar system or entire region of space. Very few other MMOs provide risk and loss in the same magnitude as EVE.

Edit2: Many MMOs don't dare make the game as 'scary' as EVE. They may worry that players getting killed hand over fist will make them not want to play the game. EVE prooves two things

1) Players love blowing each other up hand over fist, even if they die
2) Pvp and non-pvp players can exist in the same instance just fine.

Takseen
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:50:00 - [11]
 

There's two things that make the difference between regular and heart-pounding pvp for me. This is mostly from other games since I've only had a few one-sided pvp encounters on eve, but they apply pretty well.

1) Stakes have to be high. Doesn't mean you have to lose all your gear when you die, but it does have to *hurt* if you lose. An old MUD I used to play would hit you with a 5 minute respawn and xp loss that would takes many hours of grinding to regain. Eve obviously does this pretty well, even if you're in a crappy ship and have no implants its still a hassle to go replace it, and it just gets more painful to lose from there.

2) There has to be a non-consensual element to it. If im ambushing someone or they're ambushing me it creates a sudden adrenaline rush that you don't get as often if both parties know its coming and you have time to psych yourself up. My understanding is that most eve pvp encounters(including the few I've had) are sudden affairs. Compare a typical fps match or a wow battleground where you've got a short warmup period before the match starts, and both sides are looking for a fight.


Gilgamesh1980
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:54:00 - [12]
 

I love the feeling that when I blow someone's ship up, they need to work to get a replacement

no reset button after death

you pay for been stupid

every action can have a consequence

those are the ones that sum the difference up for me

and I didn't read this thread, I am just responding to the title

For Freedom and Profit!!!!!

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.08.03 15:58:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 03/08/2010 16:04:34

Originally by: tribalfreak
i've played mmorpgs for years. years of riddling other players with arrows, zapping them with lightening, and chopping them with my migthy ax. but this is the only mmo that actually makes my heart race as fast as my rifter with it's MWD active during pvp. not saying that i have vast pvp experience mind you, i have only been in a fight like 5 times, 3 i lost, 1 i ran away (went looking for a fight and ended up almost getting ****d by 5 ppl) and another were i helped a corp member and an alliance member scare off a nuet in 0.0 (we were in ratting bs so we couldn't lock the sucker down to kill him.)

in all of these confrontations my adrenaline was pumping, something i find rather odd after all this is just a game and i had pvp experiences in other games countless times i would think i would be use to players poping up on me, hell my first fight was against a WT and my freaking hands were shaking like a leaf, which resulted in me activating my smartbomb at the gate by mistake, resulting in a concord response that left me floating in my pod (almost got podded cos i was laughing my ass off at the whole situation). so why? why is eve so different from other mmos? what does it have that the others don't? i gatta say eve has hands down the best pvp ever and i hope to pvp more often in the future when my skills are better trained


P.S LOL feel free to lol at my concord ganking me experience.




You make an emotional connection with EVE, your life in EVE, your stuff in EVE, the events in and history of EVE, etc. It's an immersive product after all. This is why perception defines reality, and why perspective management beats expectation management. CCP doesn't sell us just a game or a can of soup, they sell us another universe, another life (and yes, sometimes another job).

This is what defines both the foundation for and potential of EVE, what pushes its growth, and what pushes and seduces people to grow it. This is excellence, this is immersion in world domination.

And this is pretty much the bottleneck of the current situation that catalysed (but was already brewing under the surface) through the CSM Meeting Minutes and Zulupark's devblog: CCP decision level demonstrated to not recognise the emotional connection as a key cornerstone require for the commercial development of EVE.



Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:23:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: tribalfreak
in all of these confrontations my adrenaline was pumping, something i find rather odd after all this is just a game... ...so why? why is eve so different from other mmos? what does it have that the others don't?


I have been there with the shaking hands and pounding heart so many times...and come out of those situations laughing at having such an emotional reaction to a game. But emotions...they stick with you. AS Virt said, they create a powerful connection to the perception of an alternate universe or life...one where uncertainty is ever-present, real effort is necessary to acquire things (skills, ships, fittings, etc), the harsh reality of nonredeemable loss is a given, and the unpredictability of human behavior affects everything. It all manages to synergize into something so close to real in the mind's eye that that it can inspire those powerful emotions which...in circular fashion...bind us ever more strongly to the virtual life we lead in New Eden.

Ralnik
Alpha Squad
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:32:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Ralnik on 03/08/2010 16:34:56
PVP in EVE is fun because there is real risk involved of losing your hard earned work. As far as PvP combat, likely my favorite game for that was Aces High 2, but it doesn't classify as a typical MMO.

I used to get that shaking hands after a fight in that game but not as often here in EvE. Every once in a while I get it here but it's not so often.

With AH2 it took real developed skill in piloting your aircraft rather than in game trained skills, so you were flying by the seat of your pants. This is something I miss a lot from that game but sadly it suffered from the same blobing that EVE does.

I ended up leaving that game because 90% of the player base would run away and only fight with a numbers advantage. Oh wai..

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:39:00 - [16]
 

In no other game will you find quite as many people who will constantly whine and deride the game at every opportunity yet ardently refuse to stop playing it.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.03 16:44:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 03/08/2010 16:49:24
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
In no other game will you find quite as many people who will constantly whine and deride the game at every opportunity yet ardently refuse to stop playing it.


I think there is a key message implied in your statement that speaks to our passion for the game and the natural development of a sense of "ownership" and "entitlement" when it comes to how it evolves. Its no different than how one responds to any other environmental situation that one cares for deeply. When we determine that a precious environment--be it a game, work, home, relationship--no longer addresses our desires or meets our expectations, we either fight for or against change according to the situation at hand. That's why people who love EVE keep playing it despite complaining (and in some cases trying to influence change for the greater good).


Saulc Neslo
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:52:00 - [18]
 

Great OP,

What really makes Eve unique is that it is live action, but still 100% descition-based unlike being twitch-based like many other online games. This is coupled with the chance of real loss makes it intensive like nothing else.

Eve is the only game that make you cold sweat and have tunnel vision when you'r about to enter combat.

Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
Now if they could make it more than "orbit at x, repeat fire weapons" that'd be nice.


Yeah, this game would be really great if you were able to pilot manually by double-clicking in space.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2010.08.04 18:58:00 - [19]
 

If you want to find PvP...just undock, and like Chick Norris, it will find you.

Contrary to popular belief...undocking does make it consentual PvP.

...just sayin. Wink


Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.08.04 19:04:00 - [20]
 

flying fast pvp ships in eve is the best thing ever. great buzz.

You do not have direct control of your ship, but need to fly it like it you had a joystick, then you also have to manage your modules and drones, while paying attention to scanner, overview ranges speeds/transversals, also local intel in chat channels and last but not least your own tanks status.

Yeah theres alot going on there Cool

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.04 19:18:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 04/08/2010 19:17:57
Originally by: Gilgamesh1980
I love the feeling that when I blow someone's ship up, they need to work to get a replacement


People probably giggle with glee when they blow up 200mil worth of ship and mods i'm flying, because something like that would be srs bsns to them, but to older players it's like losing a Rifter. No slaving away for days or weeks to replace it, because if there isn't already another fitted and ready to go, we can buy and fit another from scratch in 15 minutes.

This may be why griefing new players is so popular.

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.04 19:37:00 - [22]
 

It's the only space based sci-fi MMO around.Rolling Eyes

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:21:00 - [23]
 

ceptor on ceptor battles are some of the best fights around.

Nothing is equal to that in eve, and well, it never fails to get my heart pounding. Thats why my standard hangar includes at least one 'sader at all times :p


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:38:00 - [24]
 

It never gets old that feeling.

The nerves go away after a while, but the buzz remains.

Only the rarity of it makes it fun.

If you undocked immediately into pvp every time, where you weren't toasted 2 seconds later, it'd get old quick.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:46:00 - [25]
 

A while ago, someone posted that WoW was like snakes and ladders (or some other easy game) and eve is like chess. They were only partly right. Eve is like chess with a split second countdown to making your move or losing your piece.

spytoon
Posted - 2010.08.04 21:27:00 - [26]
 

I have only fought 3 times and they were all inside 10 minutes.

I destroyed 2 BS and 1 BC worth with fittings around 400million isk


My heart was beating so fast that it nearly knocked my monitor over

Why?

It was not my ship but the 600 Million Isk worth of +5s i had implanted into my characters skull which was worth over half my total wealth.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.04 21:29:00 - [27]
 

The emotional bit yes… but I got some of that back in the Planetside days as well — dying was cheap there, but winning (and losing) still actually meant something. Staying alive had a purpose (and dying horribly could have its purpose too), and that's why the two stand out. The loss you get in EVE makes that purpose so much clearer, granted, but that's really what it boils down to imo.

Another thing that sets EVE apart from most other MMOs is that (and horribly enough, I have to quote the goons here) every ship and every player counts. You can't simply "gear" or "build" your way out of a situation, because there is always something that can completely nullify that gear and build… and it doesn't even have to be something big and complicated. A newb in the most fragile of ships can wreak havoc with the enemy if put in the right spot.

Does this lead to blobbing? Yes. But it completely punctures the "bigger is better" kind of balancing that most other games suffer from — bigger is only better if bigger is appropriate for the situation, otherwise bigger will be (much) worse…

Barakkus
Posted - 2010.08.04 22:11:00 - [28]
 

The only thing about eve that's different is the hours upon hours of messing with spreadsheets and external programs to manage your character's information.

Hari Markkus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.04 22:38:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
The only thing about eve that's different is the hours upon hours of messing with spreadsheets and external programs to manage your character's information.

Well, it used to be. But we haven't had any new combat ships or modules for ages. Even a nerf or two would be welcome by me at this stage.

Ashley Sky
The Eleventh Commandment
Posted - 2010.08.04 22:41:00 - [30]
 

This game is actually playable without being forced to perform a circle j... er, I mean a cooperative effort among friends in order to advance.

Also, you can be as bad as you want to be. You can lie, cheat, steal, maim, spy, and mangle. To be still playing after the amount of hate mail I've received is indicative of a job well done. Who wants to play a video game cooperatively anyway? What's the point of video games if you can't be a total jerk?


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