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blankseplocked A question for players from before 2007........
 
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Tacolina
Posted - 2010.08.04 01:09:00 - [121]
 

Quote:
Can we have virtual gardens and farms please?


Dont forget the avatar emotes. I wont be happy unless my character can do a jig.....not

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2010.08.04 01:55:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 04/08/2010 01:59:41
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


I knew my recent Massively articles were being passed around internally at CCP for discussion but it's awesome to see they're being helpful. I think I'm in something of a unique position in the EVE community at the moment. As a long-time player, I can definitely see the game from a purely player perspective (and in this case I can see exactly why players are reacting the way they are). But I also usually find myself with a lot more information than the average player and I'm often trying to take an impartial stance. I think both those factors give me a different perspective on issues like this and I try to get as much of that across in my writing as I can.

It must be confusing for someone inside the company to see players reacting so strongly, but that's what happens when players lack of any kind of context for the data provided. Internally, I'm sure devs know how much work 22 people dedicated to expansion features can get done, and what features they're working on too. I know you do internal demonstrations as development progresses, so I'm sure everyone also knows how far along Incarna is. And someone's sure to know what release window it's being planned for and why dedicating 70 developers to it is strategically important right now. The big issue here is that nobody's talking to us about those things (and others).

Perhaps the bigger issue is that when devs DO talk to us about a feature or expansion that's coming up, they tend to take an idealised look into the future. If a feature's in the early design stage when we hear about it (as happened with PI at fanfest), many of the ideas put forward could fail to make it into the game. Whether the decision to change a feature before release is made explicitly by someone in the company or it comes as a result of technical/resource limitations, I don't know. What I do know is that the original ideas for features we hear about early rarely make it through the development process completely in tact. Perhaps this reputation of over-promising and then under-delivering is why developers don't talk to us more about the features they're designing -- at any point that design may change and an almost-promise might be undone. But if that's the development process and features changing shape is something we should learn to expect, that's absolutely fine. Just tell us about that too so we know.

Ashira Twilight
Posted - 2010.08.04 07:14:00 - [123]
 

I started in '06, and this is almost as bad as the whole T20 incident. Of course, none of the *****ing and moaning effects me, because I am not a 0.0 slave...err...resident. That was bad enough that I canceled my 100 accounts and went to find another game. I couldn't find another game, and came back. This is THE best game that's ever been made.

Sure, it's not perfect, but if it was...we'd all be jobless wretches giving hand jobs behind the liquor store for internet connection money.

In my opinion, this "feels" different because of the CSMs. More things come to light that we didn't see before, "normal" every-day things that are what they are. It's like watching your girlfriend take a crap, it's "normal", but seeing it for yourself changes things...

Move more towards what the players want CCP. We love you, but after seeing you take a dump we need to see you take a shower and put something sexy on.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2010.08.04 08:24:00 - [124]
 

Indeed, impressive honesty by Eris, sounds like she didn't get the memo stating CCP employees should appear as a united front and never admit there are issues. Management likely isn't pleased.

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink

It's official now, Dust will be the end of CCP/us all.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.08.04 08:25:00 - [125]
 

playing since summer 2003 here.

a Game is made people play it, some play it alot. peole get used to game, game changes in any way - adding - unhancing - ballencing - people are to adapt and that makes people pisy.

Every time any major ballance change has been implemented you have two sides screaming at each other and a larger potion in the middile who just let it happen in silence waiting for the finished article - then if it 'sucks' or is 'awsome' some switch sides but in the end the ratios are still very similer.

Back in 2003, pretty much for the first year there were extended downtimes, server reboots, crushing lag spikes (spikes happend fequently, "oh did you just get a lag spike" local spam etc) and compared to those first few months to a year eve was averagly MUCH slower and more unstable than it is now, thankfully all we have to worry about really is contect or ballence rather than hardware or software glitches.

In the end ccp arnt stupid enough to take things to the piont where a large portion of players stop subbing and if that were to happen they would roll back and rethink.

Its totally true about the forums displaying 90% whinage, but the total equuates to less than 5% of the actual ingamers who blissfully play the game as it is, for the money thay sub with and leave the ballencing for the warriors and devs.

es theres a tremendous amount of whines right now with extra lag in 0.0, but my opinion is thta 0.0 has been NOT FUN and a crap fest with crap mechanics for years - thats my personnel view. therefore i do not see ANY lag problems untill a very large gang meets another in low sec or empire. This doesnt mean 0.0 isnt a total lag pit since the most recent patch, but i cannot comment directly, and further more i dont care. However 0.0 drives the massive empire trade economy and is integral to the workings of the game and so those uba alliences and their fleets of supers, so they too must be kept happy.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2010.08.04 10:14:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Sakura Nihil

- RMR
- T20
- Nos nerf
- Nano nerf
- Zulu's carrier ideas

And of course, the instance we find ourselves in at the moment. This one is different though, in that I've never seen such pants-on-head stupidity from the devs before. Really, I haven't.

Between telling their current subscriber base their long-term business isn't meaningful (that its better spent on new bright-eyed players), to neglecting us of meaningful game development for the next 18 months, to turning a blind ear to the CSM after giving it so much press upon formation. To hiring a PR firm to do damage control in the media, to asking us to vote you in as best MMO after all that - and then, having the gall to unsticky the thread in the hopes it will fade away and people will forget about it?

WAKE THE HELL UP.


Indeed, wake up because CCP have said they will PROBABLY work on EVE after the coming 18 months. People really are ignorant, because they never said they WOULD.

Here's a quick explanation of the word probably:

Maybe, we will think about it, possibly and NO.

Which part of PROBABLY is hard to understand for you guys?

Quote:
T20


OMG... T20 caused Threadnoughts the likes of which have never been seen since. We had 150+ page threads that got deleted every other day. Those were unbelievable days... unbelievable and not just the Goons were spamming, it was EVERYONE. Empire pubbies, carebears and nobodies were posting because T20 was one of those cases that could have broken CCP. I've seen whole games die because of Dev corruption but the T20 affair was 'handled' and devs joined every single large alliance, whether intentional or not but checks and balances were maintained.

This, however, is something different. This is CCP telling the players they can go **** themselves then have the audacity to tell us to vote for them. If you read MMORPG and other forums you'll see what happened to Sony; players are being told not to subscribe to EVE, because management don't care about the game and could just let it die once WoD and Dust have been released. Also CCP have hired a PR firm to manage our rage, that just shows how bad this CSMgate drama is and we're not only back to the days of T20 but even worse. I appreciate CCP's candidness in saying FU to the players but they underestimated our intelligence (stop being a moron and read Scrapheap Challenge) and ability to strike back. This is one of those cases in which a mouthy community show they won't take **** from anyone, and we're only like this because we care, if we didn't love EVE we wouldn't have cared at all, remember that, children.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2010.08.04 10:22:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Dr Fighter
es theres a tremendous amount of whines right now with extra lag in 0.0, but my opinion is thta 0.0 has been NOT FUN and a crap fest with crap mechanics for years - thats my personnel view. therefore i do not see ANY lag problems untill a very large gang meets another in low sec or empire. This doesnt mean 0.0 isnt a total lag pit since the most recent patch, but i cannot comment directly, and further more i dont care. However 0.0 drives the massive empire trade economy and is integral to the workings of the game and so those uba alliences and their fleets of supers, so they too must be kept happy.


I really don't understand why people keep going on about lag only. Lag is a problem, a serious one, but there're bigger ones: abandoned features that will NEVER get worked on because CCP don't care. I, personally, love big fights and that's why I play EVE and live in 0.0 but I've never tried FW because it's pretty ****ed, though I've always wanted to. I remember the day it was released, 0.0 corps left their alliances to give it a shot. They were back within weeks because it was buggy, incomplete, and pretty ****ty. Now it's been abandoned and not even a fraction of people are interested in it.

Low sec is irrelevant and nobody gives a damn, apart from pirates whose only due is a repeated podding to basic SP.

Then we have the imbalance in regards to beams, hybrids and missiles. CCP don't care and the game is now Amarr Online.
HAC? Amarr. Dread? Amarr. BS? Amarr. EVE? Amarr. FAIL FAIL FAIL

Remember, new features sell, everything else is a waste of time.

Ioci
Gallente
Space Mermaids
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:00:00 - [128]
 

EvE isnt dying. I dont see many saying it is.

game breaking lagg is unprecidented and people are ****ed. They have a right to be. EvE demands alot from players who participate in those battles. Having it reduced to the bumb **** it is right now is an outright insult.

Xtover
Suicide Kings
Posted - 2010.08.04 11:46:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
...



You really come off arrogant- that's just as irritating.

You're close to what at least *I* feel when reading posts by CCP. It's more standoffish, or as if we're just teased by things. The communication is almost as if talking down to the playerbase.

Since around the EA expansion CCP has slowly moved more into this mode of "we're right and we'll tell you. I don't care if you show us we're wrong, we're right."

OK that's a horrible way of explaining it. I'll try to make examples-

Incarna has 70 developers working on it. So far we have some teaser early builds from 2009, and a short youtube clip of someone walking up stairs (that wasn't even released by CCP to the eve community).

We were hoping by now to have updates at least showing that there are significant strides in this... that it's worth all this development time. We have NOTHING.

Fleet lag is being worked on, great. However it's only ONE PART of the current content that needs polish.

Nothing to show for it.. Nothing new about Dust. Nothing.


WTF are they doing?


Serpents smile
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:08:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Xtover
WTF are they doing?



Saving up all the goodies for fanfest (8 month's from now).

Rethie
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.04 12:49:00 - [131]
 

Personal review.

I somewhat think EVE lost it's "pace" with the speed nerf. In that I am not saying that the nerf wasn't needed, maybe it was just a little too severe. For example the changes to the warp scram/disruptor. Yes I have adapted but the charged belt activity that I remember no longer "seems" to be apparent.

I remember EVE was charged with small gangs roaming high, low and nullsec, I cannot speak for what happens in low/null now, but there has been a noticable drop in gangs frequenting the belts etc, in high now in my evaluation. Maybe wormspace took those players on new prospects, or PI made a change recently, fixing the lag by keeping everyone docked fiddling in station with nice planetary GUI, while reducing traffic actually in the space realm of the game.

I remember it was never hard to find a cheap fit fight, no big loss but lots of fun, now, somedays you can wait hours to even see another frigate on a roam, plenty of mining barges on the increase meaning that the current mission loot nerf has done it's job returning mineral collection toward the mining profession.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:05:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Serpents smile
fanfest


my god with no new material for 18 months™ thats going to be THE MOST boring fanfest ever.

soon to just be "fest"

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2010.08.04 13:13:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Dr Fighter
Originally by: Serpents smile
fanfest


my god with no new material for 18 months™ thats going to be THE MOST boring fanfest ever.

soon to just be "fest"


Oh I'm sure the marketing department will have another FF jam packed with over hyped stuff that's happening 'soon(tm)' - like they do every year........

C.


Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2010.08.04 14:30:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Xtover
You really come off arrogant- that's just as irritating.

If I come across as a bit arrogant, that's because I'm a bit arrogant. Sorry about that ugh

I hope at least the point gets across to CCP that they've been clammed up pretty tight on development lately and players would probably appreciate seeing the results of some of those internal demos they do. People could do with seeing some solid justification for all the resources allocated to things like Dust and Incarna, even if it's just the occasional work-in-progress video, devblog or interview.

fivetide humidyear
Gallente
Fool Mental Junket
Posted - 2010.08.04 15:41:00 - [135]
 

Playing since just before RMR, the last couple of patches have somewhat disapointed me after the brilliance of wormhole space and T3.And what i see coming does not inspire me, walking in stations meh, DUST514 meh.

Please sort out some of the games problems before new content.

Please apply some polish to your rough diamond.

And then maybe, jst maybe you won't have the reaction to your please vote for us thread.

But please Eris, bring back the pink revelation signature, you know you want to.

jason hill
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.08.04 19:36:00 - [136]
 

as one of the oldest players in the game.been playing since beta i spose i better give my 2 cents .most of the recent patches have never been of benefit to me as i mostly ***** in 0.0 (when i get the chance to login due to work comitments) i think.. and this is just my opinion that for once we just had one release from ccp stating "you aint getting any new shiney toys or new gimmicks.. we have fixed the bugs...now go play the game as we originally intended it to be"as it says on my original box "be who you want to be accept no comprimse" ... sadly this does not appear to be the case.

however i intend to go to next years fanfest as i went to the 2004 one and heres me hoping that this time next year i will be wondering why i bothered to post this thread as those cunning icelandic folk will have a resoloved all the issues ... well thats my hope ...well one can wish ... sorry about the spelling ive just got home from work and im knackered

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.08.04 20:03:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
It must be confusing for someone inside the company to see players reacting so strongly, but that's what happens when players lack of any kind of context for the data provided.


If you think miscommunication is the culprit here, you're sadly out of touch with a lot of the players who are up in arms. No amount of communication now is going to replace results. Read what Jade Constantine writes above this post and talk to some players who are really dedicated to this game, and aren't just trolling or having unguided rage over nothing but lag, and you'll notice communication is less than half the issue. They could tell us that 100% of the devs are now assigned to everything we want, but we'd still be waiting.

It's been years of the same, and given the opportunity to explain my point of view, I'll openly say that they leave things half-finished and sloppy, always have, and it's annoying as **** because it's a great and unique game. They were supposed to strive for more polish after they got through their growing pains, they made inches towards that when apocrypha was released and the actually mentioned the word "user interface"... but that's not what they're doing anymore.

Outrage at lag and a perceived lack of attention to it appears to be just a more detrimental side effect of the sloppy attitude. Try asking some bittervets about their ancient bug reports, or try a lol feature request, see how that goes. Why even have a features and ideas discussion forum? Or any discussions on balance? These changes only happen in giant sweeping one-pass overhauls and then never get touched again.

Hell, look at this forum and how outdated and crappy it is. Or ask people about their evegate links. Ask me about my address book folders. One of my friends was stupid enough to think that when CCP said they would put that feature back in later, that somehow it meant they'd do it before the next expansion.

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2010.08.06 02:00:00 - [138]
 

It seems really sad to me that I won't be able to get into a big fleet fight again (or even take a larger than small gang roaming)for another x months/years and that these big issues and player concerns/CSM backlog etc will not be looked at for at least a year and a half.

I mean right now i'm doing small gang stuff again (10 or less), and that's fine (although there have been some lag issues even then), but I don't expect it to hold my interest for ever. And there is only so much content in the game, without adding in new content and new ships etc to train for I feel that a lot of older players who make up a large proportion of your income with their multiple accounts, will just slowly sidle off to better things. And that Eve will wither and die. I don't want to see that happen, but it kind of feels like the way things are going. And that makes me really sad, because Eve has been a huge part of my life for the best part of half a decade.

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2010.08.06 03:10:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Well I just try to do my bit and post a bit more often and give my personal 2 cents on things Smile Don't know if it will do anything or not but I do know I posted a lot less than I used to which is a shame.

I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink


you deserve a pay increase for addressing a thread like this

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.06 03:42:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Xtover
You really come off arrogant- that's just as irritating.

If I come across as a bit arrogant, that's because I'm a bit arrogant. Sorry about that ugh

I hope at least the point gets across to CCP that they've been clammed up pretty tight on development lately and players would probably appreciate seeing the results of some of those internal demos they do. People could do with seeing some solid justification for all the resources allocated to things like Dust and Incarna, even if it's just the occasional work-in-progress video, devblog or interview.


I agree - we would love to see some progress. The last demo of Incarna has been two years, when I first got into EVE. Also, an update on all of these Mass Tests and if they've got a fix ready to roll out for this 0.0 fleet lag.

Frank Horrigan
Vault 35
Posted - 2010.08.06 04:59:00 - [141]
 

2003 here.

1. Miss when server peak was 7,000 ppl. space is WAY TOO FULL NOW. Doesn't feel like space anymore. (SOLUTION) We need 50,000 systems, not 5000, eve needs to grow with its population!

2. Way too many highly organized gank squads, I miss when there was just roaming pirates and occasional m0o. (SOLUTION) I don't know, probably same as #1

3. EVE isn't dieing, just more boring then before.. nothing to explore... space is far too full and over competed for. even w-space seems boring after a few hours... its all programmed and static.. formulated.. EVERYTHING is a formula.. boring.

but MAINLY. For years my problems all stem from #1. i've explored all of eve.. its all old to me.

p.s.

4. Pvp is an unsustainable play style without a t2 bpo or 2+ accounts.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2010.08.06 14:51:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Frug
If you think miscommunication is the culprit here, you're sadly out of touch with a lot of the players who are up in arms. No amount of communication now is going to replace results.


Given that we are seeing no results or progress, there are two distinct and mutually exclusive possibilities here. Either there has genuinely been no progress and there are no results to show (i.e. CCP has been doing nothing for two years), or there has been progress in the background and we haven't been kept in the loop. Which one you believe is up to you, but I think assuming a 400-man game development company has done no work aside from the visible results we've seen in expansions is ludicrous. I would lean toward believing there's a lot of stuff the devs know about the work they're doing, but they aren't sharing it with us like they used to.

They never did a devblog on the technical debt and mess in the codebase left by Apocrypha, for example. I had to learn about that from CSM member Trebor on his blog. Ideally, players should have been informed about it before Dominion so they could understand where some of the dev time was going that they couldn't see immediate results from. They do occasionally release devblogs on bugs they've tracked down and fixed, which is excellent, but there must be so much more that they know and aren't sharing. They haven't given us any indication of what their latest work on Incarna and Dust look like, for example.

The stance that CCP aren't showing us the results of much of the work they do is supported by the complete difference in opinion between developers and players. It's like they have a completely different perspective on the issue, and rightly so. People inside CCP will know a lot more about the state of the game's development and current projects than we do. They've probably seen the latest Incarna prototype in action, while many of us are left wondering why Incarna's even worth the development time. So I don't think that CCP are not achieving results, I just think most of those results aren't immediately visible to players (such as with backend stuff and Incarna/Dust) and CCP have failed to keep us updated on them. That is the very definition of a communication disconnect.

Marikitus
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:21:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Frank Horrigan
2003 here.

1. Miss when server peak was 7,000 ppl. space is WAY TOO FULL NOW. Doesn't feel like space anymore. (SOLUTION) We need 50,000 systems, not 5000, eve needs to grow with its population!

2. Way too many highly organized gank squads, I miss when there was just roaming pirates and occasional m0o. (SOLUTION) I don't know, probably same as #1

3. EVE isn't dieing, just more boring then before.. nothing to explore... space is far too full and over competed for. even w-space seems boring after a few hours... its all programmed and static.. formulated.. EVERYTHING is a formula.. boring.

but MAINLY. For years my problems all stem from #1. i've explored all of eve.. its all old to me.

p.s.

4. Pvp is an unsustainable play style without a t2 bpo or 2+ accounts.


'03/04 here

/agree m8

Also i remember when CCP anounce in 2004.... "we going to add the jovian race in the next patch"........ and look us in 2010 and jovians they there are in his space. well nevermind about that they never going to give us the jovian its his "joker card" in case Eve have a massive fail with 1000 of accounts cancels.


Now im thinking.......CCP know this is going to happen and thats why they dont make the Fanfest this year?? and please dont tell about the crissis because they have to much fraqing money a month from us.


Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2010.08.06 15:53:00 - [144]
 

The crying is more akin to taking your 2 year old to the toy shops and buying them a nice toy.

Later on, you return with the 2 year old to the toy shop and remove not just that 'nice' toy, but a lot of other 'core toys' they relied on and replaced them with 'ZhuZhu pets'.

Sure, they look cute and make fun noises, but when you are brought up with LEGO and some one takes your LEGO away, you don't half moan.

/me makes shout out to his 08/08/08 spawn who's 2nd birthday is on Sunday, hence the analogy ;^)


jason hill
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2010.08.07 00:29:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Frank Horrigan
2003 here.

1. Miss when server peak was 7,000 ppl. space is WAY TOO FULL NOW. Doesn't feel like space anymore. (SOLUTION) We need 50,000 systems, not 5000, eve needs to grow with its population!

2. Way too many highly organized gank squads, I miss when there was just roaming pirates and occasional m0o. (SOLUTION) I don't know, probably same as #1

3. EVE isn't dieing, just more boring then before.. nothing to explore... space is far too full and over competed for. even w-space seems boring after a few hours... its all programmed and static.. formulated.. EVERYTHING is a formula.. boring.

but MAINLY. For years my problems all stem from #1. i've explored all of eve.. its all old to me.

p.s.

4. Pvp is an unsustainable play style without a t2 bpo or 2+ accounts.

frankie baby ...i think you just hit the nail on the bloody head mate

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2010.08.07 00:53:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 07/08/2010 00:56:50
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


Post with your "alt" "main" then ... Question Wink Laughing ugh

Back to the OP ...

Personally, I've been here since beta, and if EVE would have died as often as people have said "EVE is dieing" then it wouldn't have made it past the 2nd year.

I don't really care for the PvE stuff, but there are a lot of EVE players that do, so I'm happy if they are happy (well kind of).

The lag issues, which seem to be getting worse with every patch, are whats *REALLY* doing my head in.

I've been reading "Need For Speed" for ages now, I just hope that CCP will finally deliver.

IMHO, the whole lag issue is not caused by the ships themselves but its actually cause by the number of drones Carriers and Moms (I know, super carriers) can dump into the grid. Its like having an additional 25/10 players on grid. You get 5 Moms and 10 carriers in support and that's an additional 225 "instances" on grid (240 in total, not just the 15 player ships, the numbers are usually much larger and so the the multiplication factor).

Apart from that, stability is up, there's been not been another DB rollback since 2003 (or was it 2004?), so everything is good in the EVE universe Very Happy


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