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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Well I just try to do my bit and post a bit more often and give my personal 2 cents on things Smile Don't know if it will do anything or not but I do know I posted a lot less than I used to which is a shame.

I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink


Please can you slap your colleagues around the face a few times so they can realise this and fix the issues that are literally killing the game that ccp created. We can't do sov battles, we can't do battles in general, in empire we get perma banned for fleet fighting due to rule 17. The lag, and the abandoned features makes me have a sad face.

Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:05:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink


I blame the casuals for most of the problems in this game too.

Imagine if people could make excursions into unprotected and unused areas of 0.0 and take that sec away easily. The tears of casual 0.0 players who aren't on often enough to stop them would be a cleansing flood.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:16:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 02/08/2010 17:17:08
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.




PS I bought 2 PLEX because of this post.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:25:00 - [34]
 


Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.




Eris for Pink CEO 2011!


Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:37:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Virtuozzo

Thank you dear. I fully acknowledge this is a personal impression on your behalf (which coincidentally I do share), but this is thoroughly appreciated. It should be noted however that in recent times (starting prior to Dominion) the situation has become far less a case of "players <-> devs gap", but something that became visible far more as a case of "players + devs <-> business management - inner circle gap". For more reasons then we can probably explore here, but they all more or less tie right into CCP's original and core company values. In reference I should quote Vilhjálmur Thorsteinsson:

Quote:
CCP‘s culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?


The gap CCP faces, has a wide variety of causes. One of the biggest of which is growing pains, the fast paced evolution of CCP from a start up to an enterprise path, something which really is not uncommon and which is not a drama. It's business, and for this there are best practices - those do however need to be in line with a recognition of the nature of the market and the product established and engaged in. After all, this is what determines the type of organisation required.

What the current situation comes down to in terms of enterprise development, is pretty much exactly what Thorsteinsson there put on the table - but it should be noted that he provides the foundation requirement for it elsewhere:

Quote:
These values are not simply company values, because of the vision of World Domination by building an alternative universe and what this means for the type of products CCP creates and the markets it serves it is clear that these are values that apply to CCP's creations equally. No small enterprise, and while fully in line with the challenge this company engaged on it should also be clear that this requires a constant need to alternate perspectives applicable both within the company and by the market on the product.


It is safe to say that - independant of the other factors - this here is pretty much one of the most primary aspects of the current situation. Right now, the situation "bleeds" challenges not too dissimilar of a growth bottleneck in enterprise development commonly referred to as "internal segregation" and - applicable because of the type of product - "immersion segregation" (which I should say has less to do with what players commonly shout out as "omg which producer pew pews and more with information processes that have their own unique bottlenecks related to cubicle challenges and so called tunnel vision on singular concept challenges).

Communication, is one key aspect here. Trust another one.

CCP and the universe it builds have unique strengths, but as players we get the impression that at some point something broke, and instead of building on the original strengths there is an unconscious intent on engaging in a rat race of commercial development a common company would undertake. CCP, is and should never be a common company. Because of where it comes from, because of what it aspired, because of its people, and because of everything it can enable. I realise it is not an easy road to walk, but nobody discounts the extreme potential CCP has. Provided the gaps can be acknowledged, and structurally addressed.




This post did not need to stay at the bottom of the first page.


Slade

Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:47:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Spaceman Jack
For me - as a player since 2003 - its different.

I never subscribed to the "EVE is dying" bandwagon - However, now I feel EVE is having some issues.



I agree with this. I have seen all the whines since 2003 but this time I'm seeing more players (some very long time players) complain that never use to or ones that stood up for the game more... myself included.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:48:00 - [37]
 

♥ and much respect to Eris. I'm sure it can't be easy as an employee of CCP to offer such a genuine, honest response while so much anger and frustration is being directed at the source of your livelihood. It speaks volumes about your integrity and that of other CCP staffers who have responded in similarly forthright ways...and gives me hope that that there are a lot of good people on the workfloor at CCP who care very much about the game, the players, and the future of CCP.

NobodyGood
Snakes With T1ts
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:01:00 - [38]
 

I joined after RMR and it had lots of problems as well, there has been and always will be problems. But back then I think people had a better sense of humour, have a look!




Hexman
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:09:00 - [39]
 

There have always been recurring small "omg eve is dying" posts. But they have usually been over very specific and localized issues -people griping over things such as nano-nerf, no love for amarr, no love for caldari, some raging carebear over having been ganked in "safe space" (lol), or even pvp-ers complaining about their ships/race/etc.

In most cases, people lol and "i can haz your stuffs" at him, the general population just adapts and goes on.

This time, however, beyond the obvious threadnaught over "yes we're awesome vote for us" thread (more lol), people -and i mean long time vets, not new players like some tard here said- are irked at the fact that CCP have release broken stuff, broken stuff that was already out there and yet insist on not commiting to fixing anything for 18-months because they are focused on releasing stuff that:

1) Doesn't seem to add anything to eve's core game (incarna - wtf)
2) Is completely unrelated and designed to generate short-term revenue and is not even clear if it will even be succesful at all (DUST - omg)

And what really makes it worse, is that at least in the case of the 0.0 playerbase, the big-ass fights is what CCP markets as "being eve" - all their videos show that. All their marketing messages suggests it. And yet, THAT part of the game is totally broken and they won't fix it at all for 18 months.

So yes, this time is different. I don't think eve is dying just yet. But I do think it's drinking poison pills and will be in sever risk of dying.

All the previous times someone said "eve is dying" i admit I always lol'd. This time I've actually considered cancelling my accounts. Why? because even if before, the game seemed broken, I always stuck out for the fix. This time I know it's not coming. 18 months is waaay too much to wait, paying $14/mo, for a game I can't play the way it was promised to me.

Goodwill City
Amarr
The Society of Goodwill
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:15:00 - [40]
 

Eris Discordia for CEO. Get the beancounters out!

Linji Yixuan
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:36:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Linji Yixuan on 02/08/2010 18:37:11
Originally by: Hexman
And what really makes it worse, is that at least in the case of the 0.0 playerbase, the big-ass fights is what CCP markets as "being eve" - all their videos show that. All their marketing messages suggests it. And yet, THAT part of the game is totally broken and they won't fix it at all for 18 months.


This seems to be not totally true based on what CCP Zulu has said:

Originally by: CCP Zulu
On top of that we have some (space) cowboys running around injecting code into Tranquility live to debug fleet battles and fix exploits (these are the same people that do code reviews and architectural integrity checks for the EVE codebase). This is where the MIT Ph.D. come into play. This doesn‘t fall under the classification of a development team but contains computer scientists, QA people, operational staff and others. They are hard-at-work (often well-outside normal working hours) profiling and diagnosing all sorts of lag-related issues or trying to catch fringe cases that are impossible to reproduce on our test servers. This team will be greatly assisted by the "fleet fight in a can" sentient AI.


http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=777

It seems they have dedicated computer scientists working on it no?

Anyway, Ive been only playing for a year and a half but the last month seems to have had a tone change. Like has been said a few times here people arent just upset about a specific feature but seem to be really mad at CCP in general over what is perveived as a lack of commitment towards the core game (the one paying the bills it is worth mentionig).

There is the perception that development of eve core has been slowed down because of incarna and dust (largely based on the feedback of the CSM). If this isnt true CCP needs to do more to communicate this fact.



Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 18:53:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Trent Nichols on 02/08/2010 18:55:23
Born 02 2006:
For me at least, it's different this time. What many people (including the Devs) don't get is that when people scream and moan and threaten to quit, they really don't want to quit. I did my share of yelling over some of CCP's more ham-fisted "fixes". I loved Eve. Ive never been so involved in a game before and I wanted to keep playing and having fun.

Now its 08 2010.
Ive had very little fun with Eve since Dominion hit. My dreams of fun,immersive Sov. warfare are gone. Fleet fights are nothing but frustration. After the CSM minutes and Zulu's blog I no longer think Eve will be anything more than a diamond in the rough. It is a diamond yes but CCP is simply not inclined to polish it.

That I'm posting here now is proof that I still hope the game will be fixed but you wont seem me raging or posting multiple times in a single thread. My accounts really are canceled and they end this month. I just don't care enough about Eve anymore.

Don't take a lack of noise as a sign everything is going to be fine. People are getting tired of CCP. They know forum rage is unlikely to help so they will just quit.

Also... No you cant have my stuff - In the unlikely event that the lag is fixed and some major improvements are made, I will be back in a second.

iP0D
Posted - 2010.08.02 19:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Linji Yixuan

This seems to be not totally true based on CCP Zulu


Trouble is, it might be an idea to look up Zulu as Zulupark, and go over past posts and devblogs from him - god forbid you go back further then the timeframe of his focus on carriers. I know this is a sad thing to say, but ... he's got no reference of immersion. Furthermore, he demonstrated beyond a doubt with his feedback points on the CSM Minutes to be one of those who suffer from what someone else here called segregation. Lack of communication, only one perspective that defines a singular reality, all worrying signs. Worse, he demonstrated to simply not adhering to any workflow in line with what they preach of SCRUM with the approach and reception. That is even more worrying. But this is one of the focal points here, somehow there appears to be a level of decision processes at CCP which somehow just tuned out at some point. At minimum they stopped thinking about how people use what they make, what is important in customer reaction, and how both their own and the customer perspective make the picture complete. Look at Nathan's comments in those minutes. It is as if the excellence of code dogma is sacrosanct.

And that pattern is what people point to as the big divide between customers and developers on the one hand, and somewhere over the rainbow the decision level.

Originally by: Linji Yixuan

dedicated computer scientists working on it no?

You might want to read a thread in a different little eve community on that topic :P CCP have waved the Phd flag around a few times, but sofar in none of the years has there been any delivery on it.

Originally by: Linji Yixuan

lack of commitment towards the core game (the one paying the bills it is worth mentionig).



It isn't the last month really. The last month has only been the debate punching through that buffer of external communities and third party forums, channeled through the visibility of the absence of communication and workflow after the CSM Meeting Minutes, but even more so after Zulupark's devblog. The current sentiment has been growing in a wide range of parts of the game for quite a while now, but gaining momentum after Dominion. The recent events have merely acted as a catalyst. Considering it's all had to push through those buffers of external sites first before really hitting it off here, is imo significant.

Originally by: Linji Yixuan

There is the perception that development of eve core has been slowed down because of incarna and dust (largely based on the feedback of the CSM). If this isnt true CCP needs to do more to communicate this fact.



I don't think it's the perception of EVE core development slowing down, people have over the years taken a lot of worse, and in stride. Because we all love EVE. But when you pile up over the years that nothing ever gets finished, and nothing ever gets iterated upon, seeing the same bull**** marketing again and again becomes a case of severe overexposure. Enough is enough, and then when people see Zulupark in charge of EVE, his blog, the communicative and workflow failures - but also seeing references from a decision level to **** from the QEN that anyone with just a little experience can disprove as if it is actually the information they base decisions on - well, enough is enough.

When then, like many times before, people start asking questions, and all that follows is the very same method of hammering on technical responses only relentlessly, particularly older players see the writing on the wall because CCP has always compensated for the growing divides the same way. Without ever even getting their definitions right on iterations and features.

This is why Eris's comment is so appreciated. It is like CCP did in the past. It is honest. It is genuine. It is human. It is not the technical bull**** distraction routine or marketing stunts.

TekRa
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.02 19:06:00 - [44]
 

it's always been the same, It wasn't long into 2005 that I stopped visiting the forums as it just ruined the eve experience. it still does to some extent, but now i just ignore three quarters of what I read (if not significantly more).

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2010.08.02 19:36:00 - [45]
 

The thing that is most frustrating is knowing CCP can fix lag to a great extent like they did late 2008 but CCP management considers it more important to do other stuff which will be abandoned later on in favour of even more new stuff.

Bud Johnson
Broski Enterprises
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:09:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Bud Johnson on 02/08/2010 20:11:03
I made you something OP.



*edited for link fail

Crendis
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:46:00 - [47]
 

I think that any group of people that is used to being listened to will get louder and louder when they're no longer being listened to. I think this is what is happening to Eve's community. CCP has been tight with the players forever and now they've stopped paying attention to what their player base wants or giving special attention to the players' concerns.

Now whether or not this really happened in the past the perception was there that this is what was happening. So the players got louder. CCP responded by saying no can do. The players got louder. CCP responded with a dev schedule that said (to the players) look at all this time we'll be spending not doing the things you want! The players got even louder. Then CCP said hey go tell people how awesome we are. That's when the players started shouting and screaming. The only way for them to do that is dollar votes and making enough of a stink that CCP is forced to do damage control.

So Eve isn't dying, it's just the player base making itself heard.

Djavo
Midas Tycho
Posted - 2010.08.02 20:55:00 - [48]
 

2003 Here... to be honest this is the worst I've seen it.


Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.02 21:10:00 - [49]
 

I always sneered at the saying that MMO official forums are filled with vocal and whiney minorities; that view changed after I started reading this forum. Sometimes it is hard to tell a valid opinion from egocentric, selfish piece of rant. Those "opinions" are rather contradictory to a pretty graph I happen to find here. To me it is obvious that EVE is doing something right while many other games are not. So I guess before EVE's subscription number starts diving I'll just look at elsewhere to find insightful information regarding the game whom I intend to have a long lasting relationship with ugh

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2010.08.02 21:14:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Candente
I always sneered at the saying that MMO official forums are filled with vocal and whiney minorities; that view changed after I started reading this forum. Sometimes it is hard to tell a valid opinion from egocentric, selfish piece of rant. Those "opinions" are rather contradictory to a pretty graph I happen to find here. To me it is obvious that EVE is doing something right while many other games are not. So I guess before EVE's subscription number starts diving I'll just look at elsewhere to find insightful information regarding the game whom I intend to have a long lasting relationship with ugh


You are aware that CCP hasn't released subscriber count numbers since the **** hit the fan?

-Liang

Candente
Caldari
Posted - 2010.08.02 21:23:00 - [51]
 

It'll be interesting to see a such fan-hitting incident (however artificially blown out of proportion), might influence the overall subscription number, and how many of these will kill the leaner growth :p

Xianthar
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2010.08.02 21:40:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Xianthar on 02/08/2010 21:40:40
complaining in years past was more about annoying mechanics, try clearing out 20 deathstar POS's with no capitals. And endless POS warfare in general. I recall being in systems with 1500-2000 people going at it. It wasn't silky smooth but it was playable, it certainly didn't involved staring at a black screen for 3 hours. 500 man fleet fights were relatively lag free, fun and a daily occurrence, you could even actually move strategically.

Today we don't have the luxury of complaining about mechanics. We don't even get to experience them. I mean in all seriousness maybe the new sov system really is decent. How would we know? since its been put in place its impossible to have a fight large enough to actually test it.

The only mechanic that matters right now is positioning your fleet such that you aren't the one that black screens for 2 hours while the other fleet nukes you.

2007: "Mechanic/feature X sucks, its pretty boring"

2010: "Doesn't matter what features or mechanics you have, i'm staring at a black screen, i'm go play a few games of starcraft II, i'll alt-tab in every 15min to see if i've loaded yet"

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:00:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Xianthar
Today we don't have the luxury of complaining about mechanics.
This is really the core of the current wave of complaints, and what sets it apart from the various incarnations of "EVE is dying" I've seen over the years.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier, it used to be that people complained about something not working in the game; now it has become a matter of CCP not working properly…

DigiFusion
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:01:00 - [54]
 

05 player here, the sky has always been falling, it's just that this time were falling with it and we can see the ground. Shocked

Snowmann
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:20:00 - [55]
 

I think this is different in that it seems to be more "organized" than in the past, not so geniune as before.

There are issues, but I think they are being blown out of proportion by players who are trying to create and use drama to get their way.

Sometimes I think the players are having more of a destructive influence on the nature of the game than any perceived lack of connection by the Devs.

I think it can be hard as a game producer to wade through all the social engineering to get to the actual issues that really matter.


Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:25:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
You are aware that CCP hasn't released subscriber count numbers since the **** hit the fan?

-Liang


Uhhh, yes they have. It's 360k but that is mainly from a lot of people subbing for the $2 steam offer and Tyrannis so it will naturally dip after that and for the summer as it always does.

If you think all the people who claim to cancel their accounts actually do, you are very very gullible. If 1 person quit even time they said they were going to we'd be at -50,000 subscribers. EVE subscriber numbers are doing fine and I really don't care about a few bitter vets getting upset and posting on the forums on various alts trying to make it look like EVE is unplayable.

Or you can stay in your tin-foil house and believe that EVE IS DYING

Rananka
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:37:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


Thanks Eris. There are at least still a few decent people at ccp.

Master Akira
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:40:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Liang Nuren
You are aware that CCP hasn't released subscriber count numbers since the **** hit the fan?

-Liang


Uhhh, yes they have. It's 360k but that is mainly from a lot of people subbing for the $2 steam offer and Tyrannis so it will naturally dip after that and for the summer as it always does.

If you think all the people who claim to cancel their accounts actually do, you are very very gullible. If 1 person quit even time they said they were going to we'd be at -50,000 subscribers. EVE subscriber numbers are doing fine and I really don't care about a few bitter vets getting upset and posting on the forums on various alts trying to make it look like EVE is unplayable.

Or you can stay in your tin-foil house and believe that EVE IS DYING


And you know that eve subscriber numbers are doing fine because......?

And no, eve is not dying. But Eve is not in a good shape by any means. You have to be an idiot to believe any of those.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:40:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Bad Princess
Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?



Let's just put it this way: CCP always fubars something, and so the noise from us is pretty much constant. Most of the time it's bugs, sometimes it's them doing idiotic **** with the market, or implementing a stupid feature, or even worse an exploitable bug, or accidentally the whole sever, etc.

So, anyway, yeah. Noise = constant, because they always **** something up. They don't believe in polish.

Player One
Minmatar
Die wilde 13
Posted - 2010.08.02 22:56:00 - [60]
 

As already mentioned, Eve is dying since 2003.
Imo, the percentage of Players running Amok on the Forums hasn't changed.
A lot more Players now = a lot more forum rage. But %-wise, i think it's still the same, like in the golden days of teh Nerfbat.



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