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blankseplocked A question for players from before 2007........
 
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Bad Princess
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:38:00 - [1]
 

Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?

My guess is the former............



Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:40:00 - [2]
 

You always used to get the 'the sky is falling' crowd in but this is something else.

Khors
El Barco Pirata
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:40:00 - [3]
 

It's not going in cycles, it's constant. However it seem to be peaking right now.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:41:00 - [4]
 

it comes in waves,
and is usually worse in the summer [when lots of CCP are away]

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:41:00 - [5]
 

Eve has been 'dying' since 2003. Sometimes more audibly than usual but it's always been 'dying'.

Morrow Borric
Minmatar
Reikoku
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:41:00 - [6]
 

Normally i would say yes, but this time it feels different. People aren't whining about a nerf or some element of the game the dislike. But about CCP and its commitment to Eve Online. Either way i'll be watching this one closly.

Celeste Darklighter
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:43:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Morrow Borric
Normally i would say yes, but this time it feels different. People aren't whining about a nerf or some element of the game the dislike. But about CCP and its commitment to Eve Online. Either way i'll be watching this one closly.


What makes this different IMO it's that it's even less connected to reality than usual.

Shar Totanka
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:48:00 - [8]
 

Having played on and off since 2004 I can tell you that all of eve's 12ish expansions havn't been great, but few have involved actual gameplay as little as Tyrannis and likely Incarna.

Obviously it's hard to tell if Incarna really adds anything beyond a 3D chat channel, but if it doesn't then they've dedicated the majority of their developers to something that has nothing to do with game for 18 months.

I play MAG actively and I can promise you that DUST isn't going to be able to impact eve-online in the way CCP hopes it will. That is if anyone is even using PI when it arrives.

That being said I actually do think they're working on fixing the lag, but really, if I were CCP I'd relocate all my developers to areas that have to do with gameplay and not some silly fad.

Sure walking in stations is cool, but it's not like anyone actually started playing star-trek online simply because you could walk around with other players.

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:49:00 - [9]
 

I remember Red Moon Rising downtime threads. The whining and moaning now is a **** in the rain on a windy day compared to the storms that brewed back then.

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Bad Princess
Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?

My guess is the former............





I have been playing since 2005, and I can tell you that EVE online have been dying since then! Razz

Sibil Vane
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:51:00 - [11]
 

2003 here. We need a graph.

Ephemeral Waves
Silver Snake Enterprise
Posted - 2010.08.02 15:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bad Princess
Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?

My guess is the former............





This is new. With Apochrypa expansion you had a game that had a pile of new pve content and they had solved lag. We were having fights with over 1000 people in local with very little lag.

Then they introduced Dominion and moving 20 people through a gate started giving traffic control. 100 people fighting in a system would have blackscreen and massive module lag.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:00:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 02/08/2010 16:03:03
Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 02/08/2010 16:00:07
Originally by: Bad Princess
Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?

My guess is the former............


Been here since 2005 (actually, 2003 but I played for about 20 minutes and picked up again properly 2 years later) and this has always been here, like on any gaming forum. The only thing that's really changed is that the quality of posters has declined (this used to be one of the most helpful gaming communities, now it's overrun by trolls).

Lag used to be worse, the coding used to be worse, the UI was, believe it or not, worse, and the game was a lot smaller with a lot less content and a lot less players.

Perhaps one difference from then to now is that back then, despite a lot of complaining, people seemed to realise what a diamond in the rough EvE is and accept it for what it is, rather than compare it to other games.

The game is so much better now than it was then will, hopefully, continue to evolve and shine.

Originally by: RaTTuS
it comes in waves,
and is usually worse in the summer [when lots of CCP are away]

and kids are off school with too much free time on their hands...

Originally by: Shar Totanka

Sure walking in stations is cool, but it's not like anyone actually started playing star-trek online simply because you could walk around with other players.
No, but plenty of people have quit THIS game because they can't bond with a starship as an avatar. You might be surprised at the impact this will have on the game world, even if you can't see it right now.

Originally by: Ephemeral Waves

This is new.
No, it isn't. Just the subject has changed.


Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Bad Princess
Is all of this "Eve is dying", "Devs Suck", "Sky is falling" whinee garp something that happens cyclically, or is all of this noise something that has real substance?

My guess is the former............





Rage and tear threads have been around since the game's inception. And every game has to deal with people like this. So, hell no there's no substance. I can guarantee you that 99% of the people raging at CCP won't quit and will continue playing this game.

Captain Corbulo
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:03:00 - [15]
 

confirming that eve is dying ever since i started to play 4 years ago.

but meh. i think the recent whine is mostly due to how good eve worked in autumn last year, and how bad it became with dominion compared to that.
most people ignore that it was even worse just 2 years ago.

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2010.08.02 16:09:00 - [16]
 

Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:13:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Avon on 02/08/2010 16:21:28
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


Confirming that I am open to community relationship manager job offers.

Added for on topic content: I was recently reading the thread about the engagement in f-t towards the end of March 2007 in which 40+ capitals were killed for no cap losses. That thread reminds me of the current situation.

As to the polish vs content discussion, that is a lose-lose situation. If CCP spend time improving things they get moaned at for delaying *promised* features, and if they hurry those features they get moaned at for lack of polish. If they try to compromise and hold off releasing stuff until it is really ready they are lazy, or are offering vaporware.

I'm not saying that the situation now is ideal, but then I honestly can't remember a time when they were. It sure *sounds* bad here on the forums, and on other websites, but I am a little hesitant to form my opinions based on people moaning. I have heard some pretty legitimate concerns. Some may be miscommunications, and others may be genuine problems. Unfortunately most of the useful points get lost in the noise.

Do I have faith that CCP will put things right? Sure I do.
I just wish I had more than faith to go on.

Bad Princess
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:19:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


This was an very unexpected, and frankly, very welcome surprise.

Thank you for your honest and candid response. I understand your assertion that your views stated are yours alone, but the fact that you voice them using your in-corp persona rather than using a blind alt impresses me.

Hopefully others in the CCP organization, that are in positions to act, are getting the same "feeling" as you.

Thank you for your candid opinion. From where I sit, it helped a lot.




CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2010.08.02 16:19:00 - [19]
 

Well I just try to do my bit and post a bit more often and give my personal 2 cents on things Smile Don't know if it will do anything or not but I do know I posted a lot less than I used to which is a shame.

I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink

grrfsweld
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:23:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: grrfsweld on 02/08/2010 16:23:39
http://www.thisisbrian.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/the-20end-20is-20near-small.jpg
CCP is posting personal views, WHAT HAPPENS next could be like this:

Derek Chu saw how great wickedness had become and decided to wipe EVE from the face of the interwebs. However, one righteous man among all the people of that time, grrfsweld, found favor in Derek Chu's eyes. With very specific instructions, Derek Chu told grrfsweld to build an ark for him and his family in preparation for a catastrophic SEGFAULT that would destroy every bit of EVE.

Image changed to URL. Zymurgist

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:26:00 - [21]
 

Eve has been dying since beta. We've always had the arrogant self important players who think they know more than CCP and how to develop the game demanding CCP listen to them or Eve will die when the next big new shiny game hits the market.

The rabble is nothing new but the volume of it has most definitely picked up substantially. This is just due to the volume of new players bored from other games that thinks their 15$ a month gives them executive privilege to demand how the game is built.

Orion Sky
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:27:00 - [22]
 

It seems like the more CCP listens to the CSM the more disconected from the player base they get. Time to put away the personal agendas CSM and actually do your job for once.

I mean seriously, CCP raves about how they are into the CSM and this and that but ffs, if this is the result, please disband the CSM and just listen to the players again. We have the forums. all the tools are there so cut out the people that claim they represent the player base and get back in tune with the real players.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:28:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.

Is the disconnect between the devs and the players, or between management and the players?

It's hard to imagine devs that are familiar with the players not knowing what the big issues are. If it is the devs, then the CSM would be a solution, but I really get the impression you guys don't call the shots.

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:32:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


Stunning and refreshing honesty. Thank you.

Spaceman Jack
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:39:00 - [25]
 

For me - as a player since 2003 - its different.

I never subscribed to the "EVE is dying" bandwagon - However, now I feel EVE is having some issues.

Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:53:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Well I just try to do my bit and post a bit more often and give my personal 2 cents on things Smile Don't know if it will do anything or not but I do know I posted a lot less than I used to which is a shame.

I blame casual games for this btw. They will be the end of us all. Wink


I miss those times too. And frankly, with the way players reacted to the T20 issue I can completely understand why the Devs would become less personal. I think it's a good idea to try and move on from a stand off approach and be a bit more visible, so kudos to you. Very Happy

I also love how Eve is one of the few games where the devs are happy at times just to tell its players to HTFU. At the moment its just a bit quiet Sad

Maldad Asesino
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:53:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Back then we had topics that said the sky was falling and we had our share of forum drama too, but this does look different to me. It clearly goes beyond the issue of lag and the content of the expansions. I thought Nyphur article was throught provoking for me (and I tried to read it from a non CCP perspective as much as possible).

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


You Eris bring back some faith. Thank you. you sure have alot of guts voicing your personal thoughts like this. so...

Are those issues something you intend to voice at the office or is this common knowledge?
If then. Are you planning to do something about it?

Alianne Cooper
The Scope
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Sibil Vane
2003 here. We need a graph.


Chribba?

NereSky
Gallente
RETRIBUTIONS.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2010.08.02 16:57:00 - [29]
 

Been n game since 2004 and i can say that Lag has always been a point of moaning/whining but back then as someone said as Eve was a diamond in the rough most of us accepted it, even as far as to say petitions were personable and even granted in the players favour of a lag generated loss,

however now whether its because more petitions are being received ive no idea but petitions are answered by peeps not willing to listen, clear cut copy and paste replys and you are left feeling no-one cares,

coupled with that is the constant nerfs and new game content which is lets be honest is less than favourable, making it kinda clear that progress is being made away from the caring CCP they appeared to be back in the day to a more 'we couldnt care less approach'

I keep my subscriptin going in the hope that CCP will return to caring thought provoking game developer/owner they used to be rather than making half kept promises, releasing half finished game content or even rushed game content.

The CSM appears to be more and more a public relation excercise where CCP can issue flannel but in a more polished way Sad
and the less said about the store the better imo


Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.08.02 17:01:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

Now just to make it clear, this is no official CCP post but just my personal impression and thoughts. I do think there is a bigger gap between players and developers than there used to be for various reasons which isn't helpful for anyone either.


Thank you dear. I fully acknowledge this is a personal impression on your behalf (which coincidentally I do share), but this is thoroughly appreciated. It should be noted however that in recent times (starting prior to Dominion) the situation has become far less a case of "players <-> devs gap", but something that became visible far more as a case of "players + devs <-> business management - inner circle gap". For more reasons then we can probably explore here, but they all more or less tie right into CCP's original and core company values. In reference I should quote Vilhjálmur Thorsteinsson:

Quote:
CCP‘s culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?


The gap CCP faces, has a wide variety of causes. One of the biggest of which is growing pains, the fast paced evolution of CCP from a start up to an enterprise path, something which really is not uncommon and which is not a drama. It's business, and for this there are best practices - those do however need to be in line with a recognition of the nature of the market and the product established and engaged in. After all, this is what determines the type of organisation required.

What the current situation comes down to in terms of enterprise development, is pretty much exactly what Thorsteinsson there put on the table - but it should be noted that he provides the foundation requirement for it elsewhere:

Quote:
These values are not simply company values, because of the vision of World Domination by building an alternative universe and what this means for the type of products CCP creates and the markets it serves it is clear that these are values that apply to CCP's creations equally. No small enterprise, and while fully in line with the challenge this company engaged on it should also be clear that this requires a constant need to alternate perspectives applicable both within the company and by the market on the product.


It is safe to say that - independant of the other factors - this here is pretty much one of the most primary aspects of the current situation. Right now, the situation "bleeds" challenges not too dissimilar of a growth bottleneck in enterprise development commonly referred to as "internal segregation" and - applicable because of the type of product - "immersion segregation" (which I should say has less to do with what players commonly shout out as "omg which producer pew pews and more with information processes that have their own unique bottlenecks related to cubicle challenges and so called tunnel vision on singular concept challenges).

Communication, is one key aspect here. Trust another one.

CCP and the universe it builds have unique strengths, but as players we get the impression that at some point something broke, and instead of building on the original strengths there is an unconscious intent on engaging in a rat race of commercial development a common company would undertake. CCP, is and should never be a common company. Because of where it comes from, because of what it aspired, because of its people, and because of everything it can enable. I realise it is not an easy road to walk, but nobody discounts the extreme potential CCP has. Provided the gaps can be acknowledged, and structurally addressed.



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